PUP fraud €183k, should the guilty be stripped of citizenship?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122978#Comment_118122978

No they are not.

members of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service and members of the Garda National Immigration Bureau are involved in deportations.

Nothing to do with customs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123048#Comment_118123048

Well I was thinking of the chaos of places in Mexico and the craziness of some US cities, but also that Ireland is safe. Safe in a mixed meaning, mixed blessing way. It could save you from harm and bore you to death simultaneously. (Now I'm getting into vague generalizations and metaphysical waffle. :D )

None of these perspectives are pro- or anti- Irish, BTW, a broader question about how we relate to our origins. It's not that we should reject or cling to them or assign any particular value to our origins or even think about them at all (there is no necessity for us to so); they are mere facts.

For me, given how short life is, it is negligent in the extreme (circumstances permitting of course) not to spend huge amounts of time off the island, learning along the way. We can all be grandiose about our own perspectives and doings, but for me spending time away from Ireland is not a rejection of 'Irishness' it is an expression of what having an appetite for life and an insatiable curiosity about people really means. And if I was born in any other country, I would say the same about it (except for the island part, possibly :D)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123383#Comment_118123383

Dunno., I see S. American or the US cities as being extremes. Although, then again, African cities are really dodgy too. I found Asia to be very safe though.

I didn't think of your posts as being pro or anti Irish. TBH i just saw an opinion about Irish culture, and I share some of the same attitudes. However, I do see conditioning to be an extremely important part of understanding a national culture, and it's been present everywhere I've been, because it's what society does. Society seeks to encourage conformity, because that's how it encourages stability.

As for spending time away from Ireland, I think it would be healthy for people to do, and to provide some perspective about what the country is really like, as opposed to their limited view without experiencing competing/alternative cultures themselves. I wasn't saying that spending time away from Ireland was always a rejection of Irishness, although, I do know many people who would consider it as such. I rejected the traditional Irish culture that I grew up in, but mostly, that culture is now dead. Ireland has changed considerably in the last decade or so. Those who have stayed here probably don't see it though.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122916#Comment_118122916

This is true, and they're probably the kind to defend these poor craytur's that were arrested yesterday during a multi agency operation into "investigations of Covid 19 welfare activity . . . Five business premises were searched with the aim of disrupting, eliminating and prosecuting this fraudulent activity."

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122916#Comment_118122916

And we both know that you're never going to get an honest answer from those posters who constantly defend mass immigration and the joys of diversity. We should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world, while ensuring that the next few generations inherit a squalid mess of problems.

That's rich. Speaking about honesty in your first sentence and then building a strawman in your second. No one is suggesting we should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world.

Defend your position against what is being said, not what you want to pretend is being said.

(not to mention your final statement of predicting the future without a rational basis to do so)

greendom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118104651#Comment_118104651

But not for an Irish born person to do exactly the same thing? That's bizarre!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118103978#Comment_118103978

Likes of Duffy won’t touch it.

Blazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123049#Comment_118123049

Maybe i got his dept wrong then. He’s not a blowholer but You know how guards are or indeed how any person Is when talking about their job. Just insanely boring really and I daydream away :)

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123720#Comment_118123720

Gotta love this country, 17 people get arrested for being here illegally and also claiming the pup payment.

16 of them get bail, the one that didn't has an outstanding bench warrant! Now lads will ye turn up for court in a few weeks yiz seem like a fairly honest bunch!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40737777.html

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121609#Comment_118121609

If I work in a stables for 10 years, I probably know the day to day experiences of the horses there, it doesn’t make me a horse though.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124700#Comment_118124700

Yes, and the rats who were born in the stables and have lived all their lives there aren't horses either are they?

Or what's your point?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124613#Comment_118124613

I'm sure they will all be turning up to a citizenship ceremony in the near future ,

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118124912#Comment_118124912

If we don’t give them citizenship we are racist or something.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125100#Comment_118125100

Maybe a picture will help.

Dazler97

Yes because if they think they can milk our system then they'll continue doing it, where not strick enough, ireland is basically Europe's bitch,

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123761#Comment_118123761

That's rich. Speaking about honesty in your first sentence and then building a strawman in your second. No one is suggesting we should be welcoming and supporting everyone in the world.

Really? Cause I've seen a lot of that posters contributions on a variety of threads related to immigration, and he tends to defend any and all immigration.

Defend your position against what is being said, not what you want to pretend is being said.

Haha.. now that's rich coming from you. As I'm sure many on this thread and others would agree on.

(not to mention your final statement of predicting the future without a rational basis to do so)

Actually, the proof is in the pudding, as the problems/consequences associated with increased populations (due to modern immigration patterns) of many cultures in a modern western society, are a reality. They're consistent across all Western nations that have embraced this multiculturalist experiment, once they pass the first two decades. But no, that's not a rational assumption, to see the same results repeated.. because what? We're going to be different?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126817#Comment_118126817

Actually, the proof is in the pudding, as the problems/consequences associated with increased populations (due to modern immigration patterns) of many cultures in a modern western society, are a reality. 

History shows us that with more integration between people, we have more harmony and less aggression on a macro scale. Europes most peaceful period has been since the founding of the EU and the integration that came as a consequence of that for example.

Also there is the fact that there are going to be people who cause pain and destruction even within their own community, you cannot ignore that, and the more absence of conflict at a macro level to suggest that the source cause of such unpleasantness is the mixing of different cultures.

All that aside, what message do you think it gives to people of different cultures if you are telling them that they are going to be treated differently than 'the natives' for the same offence? Maybe it's part of the strategy, create disharmony and division, and then if someone snaps and acts out as a consequence, use that as evidence to suggest, 'See, they can never truly fit in'.

If you are genuinely worried about such things happen, you, and others would look to encourage people to feel welcome and recognized as Irish instead of goading them in to a negative action.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118126926#Comment_118126926

History shows us that with more integration between people, we have more harmony and less aggression on a macro scale. Europes most peaceful period has been since the founding of the EU and the integration that came as a consequence of that for example.

History shows us that a clear dominant primary culture is what works, with other cultures being tolerated but not accepted entirely. Historically, Assimilation was the expected result of foreign cultures existing within any society. As for integration, that's a vague and dubious claim to make. And actually, Europe's most peaceful period has been since WW2, and the founding of the EU falls within that, due to the lessons learned from that conflict and the movement of Europe away from following strong political ideologies.

Ahh yes, I know the argument made when facing criticism about immigration or multiculturalism to switch to talking about Europeans... rather than dealing with the problems of immigration from non-EU nations. EU immigration tends to remain stable, due to a similarity between cultures/history, and a sharing of most value systems. However, immigration and multiculturalism from Non-European nations brings a host of conflicting viewpoints and expectations.

Also there is the fact that there are going to be people who cause pain and destruction even within their own community, you cannot ignore that, and the more absence of conflict at a macro level to suggest that the source cause of such unpleasantness is the mixing of different cultures.

I've never claimed that there aren't problems within a native group. This is simply another common deflection. We have bad people within our own society, so we can't consider the problems with those from outside that group. Meh.

All that aside, what message do you think it gives to people of different cultures if you are telling them that they are going to be treated differently than 'the natives' for the same offence? Maybe it's part of the strategy, create disharmony and division, and then if someone snaps and acts out as a consequence, use that as evidence to suggest, 'See, they can never truly fit in'.

The same message that exists around the whole world. That foreigners are foreign, and won't be treated the same as the native group. There's no reason that they can't be processed the same as the native group, in how criminal proceedings are followed, with guilt/innocence established... but you're fooling yourself if you believe that foreigners/natives are treated the same when it comes to punishment.

Double standards exist everywhere. That's a simple fact about all the nations/cultures in the entire world. We can be "better" by applying the law equally, applying the same punishment for the crimes involved, and then revoking citizenship/deporting foreigners who were extended the gift of citizenship. Seems fair to me.

If you are genuinely worried about such things happen, you, and others would look to encourage people to feel welcome and recognized as Irish instead of goading them in to a negative action.

haha.. really? As opposed to reverting to the system that has worked for centuries. That assimilation of other cultures is the end goal. You're seeking to present a relatively new experiment in dealing with other cultures as being proven to be successful.. except judging by the changes in Europe. It hasn't. Over the last two decades, the majority of European nations were pro-immigration/pro-multiculturalism.... Now? Most European nations are changing their immigration and citizenship qualifiers, along with the rights of migrants while in their countries, because they've seen the failures of integration, and the social and the economic problems that comes from encouraging larger populations of foreign groups.

Why? Because people are still essentially tribal, and when you encourage people to retain their own distinct identity different from the native cultural group, they form pockets. Pockets that, due to increased immigration, increase in size to the point where they can push their own cultural norms on to the localised area, which in turn, either pushes natives out of the area, or forces them to conform to that alien culture. And in some cases, those alien cultures are so different in terms of values and behavioral norms to run directly opposite of the norms/values of the host nation. And then, violence and social unrest manifest...

I am genuinely concerned. I'm also concerned by attitudes such as yours, which seek to ignore the host of negatives that comes with mass immigration and multiculturalism. But thankfully, Europeans are starting to recognise the dangers of being fair, in a world populated by people who will take advantage of it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122366#Comment_118122366

You haven't been granted the refugee status you applied for, but you have been granted permission to remain - which may be temporary - on other grounds.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130022#Comment_118130022

But it's more than likely permanent and they are entitled to apply for citizenship .

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130027#Comment_118130027

No it's not.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130031#Comment_118130031

Let me guess because ........

Answer A - you don't know

Answer B- you don't know

you can you provide anything to prove otherwise???

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130042#Comment_118130042

Sure you don't want to guess, you don't care about facts, you have shown that many many times.

You have your mind made up about all the thousands and thousands of foreigners in Ireland, doing something something awful, terrible etc etc.

Keep on showing your ignorance on this topic, it makes it easier to remember who to ignore.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130052#Comment_118130052

What facts you haven't presented any ,

But let's add a fact if someone fails to gain asylum ,or Subsidiary protection ,and only get the right to reside after 5 years they can apply for citizenship here ,

Mad I know 🤫

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130081#Comment_118130081

The period that a failed asylum seeker stays in Ireland awaiting appeals will be counted towards the five years required before applying for citizenship. With the ability to make multiple appeals (when one or two appeals are denied) means they can stay in the country for years due to the slow approach to the overall appeal process. All the while, they're being supported by the Irish State.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130865#Comment_118130865

Exactly this....

Considering the prison population is 15% + is foreign nationals and yet we have a laughingly low deportation rate over 30 years.

It's a case of come , stay ,get your citizenship , passport , housing ,

All paid for us the taxpayers

Out the door as soon as his sentence is over, nobody should be allowed throw our generosity back in our faces like that. The argument that it’s not fair to kick him out as our own scumbags can’t be deported. We have nowhere to deport our own born citizens to. Why would any other country want our riff raff. But someone who was born elsewhere and has nationality elsewhere should be shipped out. We are ridiculously soft these days.

joseywhales

You can debate whether we should change the criteria for gaining citizenship but you can't treat citizens unequally once they have the status. You can strip citizenship if you can prove that it was acquired through fraud. Recently and with great controversy, canada and the UK enacted laws whereby they can strip citizenship from dual citizens who commit acts of terrorism. You cannot leave a person without any citizenship. None of the western countries can strip citizenship for any other reason that I'm aware of. It is wrong to create a category of permanent second class citizenship, it flies in the face of our culture ironically.

Gatling

Drop dual and multiple citizenships ,

That way there is little or no excuses to keep foreign criminals and failed asylum seekers , anyone with dual citizenship reverts back to their original country of origin citizenship

joseywhales

I'm sitting here as a triple citizen, two of which I naturalized. I think the time for deportation is before they are citizens at some point you get them to meet your criteria to "join the club" and become a citizen after which they must be the same as everyone else, you can't deport an Irish born citizen to somalia so why a Somali born Irish citizen? Unless you want to enshrine xenophobia into our citizenship laws. We are not Japan!

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131062#Comment_118131062

But we've failed in deportation across the board ,we've seen violent rapists get asylum here after committing serious assaults while on a student visa , numerous asylum seekers directly involved in people trafficking ,drug dealing and distribution and importing , murder , criminal gang activities , welfare fraud

Yet the absolute majority stay and go on to citizenship,

There is no consequences for foreign criminals coming here ,as pointed out by another one of the consequences is the right to reside ,

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130913#Comment_118130913

Calling us ridiculously soft because of anti-discrimination laws is saying that you don't care if pregnant or even married women are not considered for a job because they might end up on maternity leave. Or that a disabled person can't go to a gig because they can't get their wheelchair in. Or that someone can be joked about or demeaned because of their religion.

We introduced these laws because we recognized that everyone should have the right to expect that they will be not treated in a different manner to others. I expect many of the people arguing for deportation of an Irish Citizen would actually be ok with losing the above protections offered to some marginalised people, but thankfully, the vast majority of the people in the country would not.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131082#Comment_118131082

Yes I mean to become a citizen of Canada and then the us, I could not have ever committed a crime in any jurisdiction ever in my life, so I don't know how active criminals are obtaining the status(if they are, I haven't verified that's true?) I even had to provide multiple years of tax returns and details of all flights for the previous 5 years(like 40 flights)

Wat happens if the immigrant renounces their original citizenship. You cannot leave them stateless, under international law I believe.

Gatling

@tellmehow

But it's ok for other countries to deport our criminals back here , but god forbid we deport foreign criminals

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118130991#Comment_118130991

You cannot leave a person without any citizenship

Why?

Would Exile be a better option?

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131161#Comment_118131161

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/Pages/Nationality.aspx

The un believes that the right to nationality is a human right, if Irish is the only citizenship they have because the renounced their original, then the Irish state would be breaking an internationally recognized human right by stripping them of their citizenship.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118127080#Comment_118127080

I'm shuddering to think what you actually mean when you say that History shows us a clear dominant culture is what works? What does 'works' actually refer to? Safety and progress for everyone? Or the subjugation of a junior class by the ruling one which could and did include anything up to and including enslavement, colonisation, eradication of their history and even in some cases, genocide.

Pointing out that there are problems within native groups is not deflection, it is fact. It suggests that the members of both groups who behave as such are inclined to do so as much because of their own natural tendencies, than because they come from a particular culture.

Also, suggesting that double standards exist everywhere is not the vindication of the proposal in the OP that you think it is. Societies throughout human history have evolved and advanced through looking at such double standards and seeking to remove them. It's called progress and has been attempted so as to constantly move towards treating people fairly. And I'm not suggesting it is done and dusted, or done to the same level everywhere, but that it has most definitely the general trend amongst or species.

Finally, the nonsense of referring to something that has worked for centuries. FFS, we still talk about England and their 800 years occupation of Ireland, your argument would suggest that should have continued. And you could use the same argument for any modern day situation or environment that is now the case after decades/centuries/millennia of things being different. And again I'm shuddering slightly at your probably qualification of just what exactly 'works' implies. As throughout this period most of the countries on the planet suffered invasion, war, hardship and death the legacy of which still remains to this day in many places. And leaving all that aside, the use of the internet, the spread of social media, and the opportunity for easy travel has existed at no other point in human history up to pretty much our generation. Only someone deliberately trying to be ignorant of the facts would look to ignore these points or suggest they have not led to a greater homogenisation amongst the human race than any other singular event of cultural movement and integration. It's the 21st century, wake up and smell the pumpkin spice latte.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131178#Comment_118131178

But as you have demonstrated you can hold multiple citizenships ,so if you then have Irish citizenship on top of others so if you commit a serious crime here (not that you ever would) why shouldn't you have your Irish one revolked and be deported to where ever your Originally came from , you absolutely wouldn't be stateless or lacking any citizenships

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131178#Comment_118131178

Ahh well, I've noticed that UN mandates only seem to be relevant when it comes to western nations, and I'd be perfectly fine with breaking with them on this.

Still. An alternative would be to allow them to retain the status/association of citizenship but exile them from ever re-entering Ireland.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131136#Comment_118131136

So we do want to import cultural practices of other countries, is that you are saying? You might go ahead and suggest that on the multiculturalism thread.

That conflicting position aside, are there countries that deport people back to Ireland when those people have citizenship in whatever country it is you are referring to?

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131195#Comment_118131195

Yes that can happen already in Canada and the UK that I'm aware of. Only in cases of terrorism. The problem with this road is the slippery slope. Once we decide that citizenship is conditional, then it is second class citizenship. We don't know what administrations will come in the future, what new conditions they made add which may be prejudicial. Once this conditional citizenship exists you are basically saying that noone can be part of our club but we will let you stick around as long as we like you. Now if you want immigrants to fully invest their lives into your country you best offer them some security of status. I think we agree on filtering applicants though, for me the time to decide whether of not to grant citizenship is the important bit. Rigorous background checks should be applied, any indiscretion should void visas let alone citizenship applications. However in my belief, once they are citizens they should be legally indistinct from those born natively.

I should say I'm originally Irish, I naturalized(now I spell it with a 'z') to Canada and then USA. I don't know what the process is like to become an Irish citizen.

Gatling

@tellme

@Tell me how So we do want to import cultural practices of other countries.

No I want to see those who come here and commit crimes they get deported ,it's not cultural practices ,

It's the government , judges, immigration and gardai doing their jobs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131227#Comment_118131227

I think you will find that's exactly what numerous posters do want. Those that are not 'full Irish ', as I saw used in a different thread, are seen as less then those who are 'full Irish '

It is indeed a dangerous road to go down, having members of society deemed to be of less importance then native persons. I think any normal person can see where that is going.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131252#Comment_118131252

And totally ignores the fact that one group actually sought out being able to identify as Irish while those who had no choice or say in themselves doing so are adamant they should be treated differently.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131260#Comment_118131260

Again in simple terms .

Why should foreign criminals get to stay permanently in this country despite while claiming asylum commit serious crimes.

ululator

There is no good reason to keep a person in your house when they arrived yesterday, uninvited, and proceeded to steal from the house.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131115#Comment_118131115

First paragraph I said nothing of the sort.

Secondly you don’t know how the majority would stand on deporting this man.

joseywhales

I don't think he should be deported, he should be prosecuted in a court and receive whatever the court deems fit. He should not have his citizenship stripped retroactively, if the irish government made a mistake its on them, perhaps he should never have been granted citizenship in the first place, if there is evidence of criminality in hist history. We made the mistake, we should eat it.

However if it can be proven that he committed fraud in his citizenship application, then it's on him and it should be stripped.

ululator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131533#Comment_118131533

The whole immigration system is a known quantity, ie a joke.

Mickey Everyman on the street knows it, and that's what counts.

All these technicalities of laws and regulations may keep these people here, but the reality is that the public perception is against them in everyday life.

So when you say "we" allowed this, it's really only a very few people that allowed it. It's up to people to weed out these corrupt politicians and their bumchums, but in the meantime, reality remains reality.

There's no good reason for them to be kept here and cost further money.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131365#Comment_118131365

Because. They. Are. Citizens.

And because having a system where 2 citizens are told they will be treated differently should they commit the same crime, is discrimination. No ifs, buts, or maybes.