Thoughts on this letting.

PalLimerick

Tenant in the house 4 .5 Years so has part 4 tenancy. Rent paid in full each and every month. Tenant in receipt of HAP. Never any Tenant issues, as stated rent paid and house looked after.

Upon moving in at the start the landlord assured Tenant he would do extensive exterior work, grounds work to be precise. Despite many requests over the years by the Tenant for this work to be carried out, the landlord has always put it off. Fast forward to now, Tenant asked landlord one last time to do the work, landlord called Tenant and cursed down the phone at them and said he will not carry out the work and that he is selling the house. Tenant felt that was only said because of requesting work to be carried out. Landlord issues a notice to quit with 160 days notice given. Tenant contacts Threshold, they say notice is invalid. So Tenant opens a dispute with the rtb. In the meantime, 60 days in to the notice to quit landlord texts saying he wants the Tenant out they've had enough time. Tenant tells him she does not want to be contacted about moving before she exercises their rights. She says if the landlord persists they will file a harassment complaint.

The landlord has made no attempt to put the house on the market or make a declaration of his intent to do so. The rtb have given a date in December for the hearing.

The Tenant wants to stay in the house as she suspects the house isn't going to be sold. The tenant wants some of the monthly rent back for each month paid as she never had the use of the back garden it is wild and abandoned and needs a lot of money put in to it for use. She rented a whole house not a house with no grounds. The landlord promised and has an obligation to do this work.

The HAP listed this work as needing done too in their inspection.

The Tenant is willing to exhaust all legal avenues before moving including the court Services. Do you think she is entitled to a partial rent reimbursement? The rtb have granted compensation in similar cases to this.

Thanks for reading.

Caranica

If he committed to doing the work to meet the HAP requirements and didn't, the risk is to HAP won't continue to be paid for that property.

Tbh letting the issue run 4.5 years might work against the tenant in terms of any potential compensation. I wouldn't be counting on it.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094957#Comment_118094957

Thank you for your input. HAP will not stop payments this has been confirmed by HAP shared services. The issue is ongoing 4.5 Years meaning that the tenant has asked the landlord on a very regular basis and he has committed in the past but never done the work. It's not a case of the tenant asking back in 2017 and never asking again. She has always been in contact with the landlord about it. My thoughts after viewing others cases online via the rtb site and one I know personally. I think she will get a partial reimbursement. Thanks again for your reply.

purpleshoe

What is it that the tenant wants? Accommodation, or money in their back pocket?

You say HAP have not refused to stop paying. I am immediately skeptical that the LL has notably fallen short here.

They are in receipt of HAP, what percentage of the rent do they contribute?

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095293#Comment_118095293

The landlord has definitely fallen short. He has failed to do what he is obligated to. The tenant has text messages confirming he will not do the work. The logic behind the HAP keeping payments up is to not make the tenant homeless. 100% fact, the tenant has been assured that the HAP won't be stopped. She has this in writing from HAP shared services and also confirmed to her Fianna Fail representative.

The tenant wants to stay in the property, and the landlord to fulfil his obligations. She also wants partial refund of rent paid because the property could not be used to its full extent as agreed at the start of the tenancy. My honest opinion is, this won't work out well for the landlord and the tenant will be reimbursed. In approx one months time in December, she will know for sure.

purpleshoe

What exactly is he obligated to do? You referenced ground works but that is vague.

Deeec

Whatever way you look at it the relationship between the landlord and tenant is now destroyed. I don't think there is any point in the tenant staying in the house - she should just move out. If she wants to pursue the landlord for unfair treatment than fair enough but if she stays in the house it's likely the landlord will make her homelife difficult.

AmberKat

How much of the rent is she actually paying though? If HAP are covering the majority of it why would she be the one entitled to the reimbursement? It's not her money after all.

Mrs OBumble

A usable back yard is not a requirement of a tenancy. Provided the house meets all requirements, I think the tenant has been foolish in the current rental market.

10pennymixup

Is there a lease?

mrslancaster

Did the lease mention anything about the garden eg grass cutting? Did the landlord supply a lawnmower.

Just wondering does the tenant have to notify the landlord in writing if the landlord is not meeting their obligations?

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095642#Comment_118095642

The up keep of the house including the outside. Do you think he has no obligations only to collect the rent? I don't believe you do. Going through your posts you appear to have a problem with tenants exercising their rights.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095657#Comment_118095657

Not a hope will she move out in the current climate. This rtb case i will bet will go in her favour.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096239#Comment_118096239

Without going in to actual figures, she pays 75 percent of rent out of her own money between what she pays to the council and the top up to the landlord which all goes through the bank. So that is the reason she is entitled in my opinion to the reimbursement.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096568#Comment_118096568

Yes the lease mentions the landlord is responsible for the upkeep of the outside of the house including garden work. The house doesn't meet standards either as confirmed by the HAP.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096383#Comment_118096383

It is he has given it in writing that the outside of the house including the back and front gardens will be kept by him. Also the house doesn't meet minimum standards as set out by the HAP inspection.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096383#Comment_118096383

Expecting to get what she pays for and when she doesn't she exercises her rights is been foolish? I get the housing crisis makes properties hard to get. But she has a very strong case. It's strange the landlord has the same right as the tenant in regard of opening a case if she is at fault. She pointed this out to him. He hasn't opened any case I wonder why? I'd guess it's because he hasn't a leg to stand on and he knows it.

This case is the tenants, there will be no bad outcome for her. She is willing to go through the courts after any determination order she receives, like wise she will go through the courts to stop any eviction because as you say, over the current climate.

Not necessarily you, but I'd guess there is a lot of landlords posting here or members with family as landlords.

The tenant is a good tenant with no rent arrears and the landlord is a bully or tried to be til he was put back in his box. And yet you have people on here trying to put the tenant off, that won't happen anyway. But that's how it appears. This bully of a landlord will learn his lesson this time. All legally of course.

sportsfan90

I wont comment on the likelihood of getting a partial rent refund or not because I've no experience in those matters.

But I'm amazed they let the HAP begin in the first place in any house that doesn't meet their requirements?

Wolftown

I'd be thinking the tenant will be evicted regardless of pursuing compensation from the landlord.

Landlord just needs to give valid notice, which he/she will definitely do considering the hassle caused.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096680#Comment_118096680

Not as simple as that. He then needs a determination order and then he needs the tenant to abide by it if not the circuit court has to make a ruling which can take 18 months to two years. Definitely not as simple as you think.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096657#Comment_118096657

It takes up to 8 months and longer during covid for a HAP inspection to take place after the lease begins.

sportsfan90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096722#Comment_118096722

Yes but you mentioned that it was promised at the very start, so was it not in breach of HAP requirements at the beginning of the lease?

I don't understand why they would allow HAP lease to begin in a property that didn't meet standards from Day 1?

airy fairy

So the tenant waited 4.5 years to have it out with the landlird to have works done outside the house?

Why didn't the tenant move if it was causing an issue? Why didn't the tenant bring a case in 4.5 years to rtb?

I don't think the tenant will get a payment for this, or a free stay. At the end of the day, regardless of the length of waiting for court hearing, she will be told to leave. She has no idea if the landlord can afford to do the works and he will possibly claim he cannot afford works and needs to sell to recoup losses. A simple affidavit and an auctioneer contract will be produced in court.

Threshold have a habit of telling tenants to stop paying rent, I would advise her to continue to pay it, it'll go against her and if this were the case she may only have days to pack up after a court case is determined.

There will be no winners here, except legal teams. I'd advise her to look for another property to rent as her tenancy is ticking away now regardless.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096767#Comment_118096767

If you had bothered reading the OP at all you would see the tenant has asked for this worked to be completed (as promised) regularly over the 4.5 years.

OP had it right, the Landlords of Boards are out in force on this one this morning.

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096801#Comment_118096801

What's with the attitude? Calm yourself!!!

She didn't bring a case with the rtb though did she? Which should have been the case after 4.5 years, plenty time tbf.

Not a landlord. Wouldn't wish to be.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096845#Comment_118096845

No attitude at all, again if you had read the OP properly you would see the tenant had asked multiple times and was told multiple times that the work would be done, when the LL finally snapped at her and told her the work wouldn't be done and she was to leave, she raised a case with the RTB.

Amazing the amount of people here who have rowed in on the side of a LL not fulfilling his obligations.

Deeec

What happens if the landlord genuinely cannot afford to get the outside of the property done for the tenant?

The tenant may win her case but the landlord will still want the tenant out ( and will go the legal route) to get her out. All the tenant is doing is getting herself extra time but she is also damaging her reputation as a model tenant. Is outside space really worth this hassle.

jay1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096983#Comment_118096983

Then he should have explained this at the start of the tenancy instead of promising to do it for 4 years and then losing his **** and trying to get his tenant out.

purpleshoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096618#Comment_118096618

I don't have an issue with tenants exercising their rights. Most of tenant rights I would support; I do, however, have an issue with tenants who don't fully appreciate what they have, and that their problems are everybody else's but theirs.

You are giving the key information in dribs and drabs over your several posts. Everything else is you have posted is just noise.

Is all this stemming from the grass not being cut?

OP, could you give more detail of what the outside work/upkeep is? Are we just talking about cutting the grass or is it a big job they were meant to do?

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096957#Comment_118096957

But not only raising a case with the rtb, but also suggesting she gets a financial rebate also. That's where this case looks muddy. How do we know what was said between landlord and tenant. Perhaps she said she'd withhold rent and then LL said no way.

Fact of the matter is, this issue should have involved a paper/email trail. Rtb could have made representation on her behalf to get works done outside the house. This didn't happen. It sounds like a shouty match between the two of them and now she's looking for financial compensation or a withholding of rent. If the house was so bad, how on earth did she stick it for 4.5 years?

This case screams like the tenant wants financial gain now and nothing much to do with the state of the outside of the house.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096625#Comment_118096625

If the HAP inspection found things not in compliance, and the landlord didnt sort them, the council can fine him afaik. If he cant afford to get the work done then he probably has to sell or ask tenants to leave as it's probably illegal to rent as it is.

What happens then, can tenants stay in a non-compliant/unsafe property or does the landlord get a certain amount of time to do the repairs?

What were the works to the garden that weren't done? Is it a front or back garden or both? If it was general maintenance and tidy-up and the lease says it's the landlord responsibility then he should have organised regular maintenance. The RTB website says a tenant can organise repairs / maintenance that are the landlords responsibility and get a refund of the cost from the landlord. Presume tenant would agree to deduct it from the rent and send a receipt.

Otoh, if LL said something vague at the start about hoping to do landscaping works at some stage and didn't do it, that might be different as it may have been a 'nice to have' but not a specific term of the contract.

As regards the notice to quit, it must be on the official form plus a statutory declaration when selling or its not valid. RTB now need a copy also. The LL sounds like he doesnt understand his legal obligations if he gave 160 days notice then tried to change it.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096718#Comment_118096718

Just reading back over this.

Seriously, why would anyone put themselves through all the stress and grief of going through the courts? Any court case is enough to really damage a persons mental health and causes huge levels of anxiety. What happens if the tenant loses the case and ends up with a big legal bill? Newspaper reports, case appearing on google from any name search, RTB case reports, etc etc, all because the grass wasn't cut? It's a bit extreme imo.. would the mediation service be an option to come to an agreement that suits both of them?

purpleshoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097844#Comment_118097844

Unlikely that they have even thought that far ahead. It has become all too common in Ireland to default to being the victim.

Even if the tenant has a justifiable grievance (Right now I suspect they don't) the manner in which they have now escalated it is over the top. The cherry on top is threatening the LL that they will report them for harassment.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096718#Comment_118096718

The very reason many landlords are selling up and very few new ones are entering.

Thats exactly why we have a rental crisis in this country.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096767#Comment_118096767

She didn't wait 4.5 years. She is chasing the landlord since she moved in the landlord failed in his duties for 4.5 Years. In all my Years of dealing with Threshold on behalf of Tenants I have never been advised to foward information as in to advise the Tenant to stop paying rent.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118096983#Comment_118096983

How will he afford the legal route then, the landlord is a big company owner.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097033#Comment_118097033

No the outside is not a case of the grass not been cut. It's that bad there is no grass, only mud, wild weeds, rubble left over from a previous job. Old appliances left from I assume previous tenants. Uneven dangerous concrete slabs.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097062#Comment_118097062

A real big job. Total outside front and back needs to be done. Definitely not a case of cutting the grass. If I say too much on here I might identify the landlord or tenant. That I don't want to do.

PalLimerick

Thanks for all the comments, good, bad and indifferent. I have not posted the real date of the rtb case for privacy. But when it goes ahead I will report back here with the outcome. Thanks to all.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101644#Comment_118101644

Why, because people exercise their legal rights?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121358#Comment_118121358

No, because of the one sided rights and the effort and cost involved for landlords to exercise their own rights.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121463#Comment_118121463

If the girl in question goes through the legal route, she will have the same costs as the landlord. So it's not free for the tenant either.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097987#Comment_118097987

Do you see any issue with a landlord issuing a notice with 160 or 180 days (I'm not sure which amount of days, but it is one of those numbers) to vacate the house. Then 50 odd Days in to the notice texting the tenant saying they've had enough time he wants them out. That is harassment, hence the threat to get the Gardai involved.

On what basis do you suspect the tenant hasn't a justifiable grievance?

sportsfan90

OP was the property/garden failing to meet HAP requirements at the time the lease was started? Honestly I’d be amazed if this was allowed.

But if so, I don’t understand why HAP allowed the tenancy to begin in a property not meeting their standards?

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121622#Comment_118121622

Simpler example.

Say you had a business where you made €100 per day and did 8 hours amount of work for that every day.

That business is going fine for a few years. You do your 8 hours and you get €100 every day.

So imagine one day the law changed that you cant increase your prices by more than €2, but suddenly you had people not paying for the goods you made and your costs went up.

You would try and get over the hump for a while, but you are on a loser.

Then add into it that you now have to put in loads of effort and cost to chase people who wont pay, but still you can only increase your prices by €2.

Then add into the mix that you have had enough and want to sell your business. but one of your customers decides they want you to keep your business open for them because they can get what you produce cheaper than the shop next door.

So now you have to go to court and jump through hoops for years to just sell your business. Its no longer the 8 hours for €100 simple business model anymore. you want out.

Can you see how the hassle and the potential minefield of RTB, courts, sheriffs etc, might make your once attractive business unattractive.

Well thats whats happened to landlords. Its also happening to Doctors and nurses too, but thats beside the point.

C14N

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121698#Comment_118121698

To the best of my knowledge, the council will virtually never assess a property for HAP before granting the money. It will usually take months after the tenancy has started for an inspection, and then they are given additional months to remedy the problems.

The One Doctor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118095602#Comment_118095602

Myself and my family are in receipt of HAP.

First rule of HAP - maintain VERY good relations with the LL.

HAP is very tenous - we are dependant on both the CC AND the LL for a home. When we moved in, the CC had a survey of the house done and a load of improvements were necessary to bring it up to spec, however the house has always been perfectly livable for us, so I ignored the list.

If internal maintenance needs to be done - I do it.

Whenever we needed anything comfort based - mattress, hoover, sofa - we bought it ourselves (having told the LL first of course).

Of course the LL has done things like replace the dishwasher and bring in plumbers, fix the roof flashing etc.

It's utterly critical to keep the LL sweet.

This tenant has rocked the boat and pissed the LL off.

The tenant will end up evicted.

Asking for money for an unused portion of the garden? That is taking the piss and throwing it on the fire.

purpleshoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121348#Comment_118121348

Oh wow!! You are advising them! I thought you were only a concerned friend/family member etc.

I view you have been a real liability to the tenant here. Reading your post above gives the impression that you operate in this area in some sort of professional capacity. It is concerning that you posted this on boards.ie to solicit feedback. Despite what you think, it is clear you don't have the skillset to navigate these challenges.

It will be interesting to hear the outcome. If the tenant is evicted will you take any responsibility for that? Or will you just double down on your existing opinion of the LL?

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118121358#Comment_118121358

Agree the tenant should have got 180 days notice if they're in the house 4.5 years so the LL can't change the NoT to 60 days because he feels like it. Was the problem about the lack of garden work only raised because of the termination notice as it wasn't such a major problem up to now if tenants were still living there? Either way, LL should have got it sorted if it was in the council report.

Tbf, the tenant has a valid grievance about the 60 days, but the LL will probably want them gone after an RTB case and will make sure every notice is correct in future.

PalLimerick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118122845#Comment_118122845

Where did I say I work in this field as a professional? You appear to be taken my posts very personal. You've answered none of my questions I asked you. Granted you're not obliged to but its courtesy to do so.