Poland to be fined €1 million daily by EU for not suspending controversial 'disciplinary chamber'

techman1

The Polish prime minister Mateusz Morawiecki is a tough guy it seems he is actually older than he looks and as a teenager was frequently arrested and beaten up by the Communist regime in Poland, his father was a leading opponent of the Communist regime and thats why he was targetted. He even had a gun put to his head by the secret police as a teenager.

This is his backround and explains why he is not that afraid of Brussels, when you have had a real gun but to your head you will not be afraid of the metaphorical guns from Brussels. Its true though that the financial weapon that Brussels has is a very big one and Poland needs this money. However it is definitely the Communist history of Poland that is giving him a strong moral grounding not to allow the European court overule the domestic courts of Poland. I can't see him backing down on this.

This is a bigger threat than Brexit though because Poland is not going to leave but is agitating from within for change, its not acceptable anymore that all the changes and rules are set by France and Germany and everyone else has to row in, Poland will be looking for much larger input into any new stuff coming out of the EU. For example the climate change targets were presented as a fait accompli at the start of the negotiations in 2019 rather than as a negotiating piece, why could say a block of countries not have reduced them down to acceptable levels

Podge_irl

Yes, his experience of the communist regime means he can resist the brutal efforts of the EU to stop him packing courts and compromising the judicial independence of his country for his own benefit.

He seems to have learned lessons from his past, but they don’t seem to be the ones you are suggesting.

ancapailldorcha

The hardman narrative comes across more Jay Cartwright than democratic revolutionary to be honest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089103#Comment_118089103

This is established fact.

If you aren't aware of how the European Union structure works, perhaps conduct some cursory research. I'm not a private tutor.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089211#Comment_118089211

So you can't prove it then, ie you're talking sh*t. I know full well how it works which is why I asked for evidence for your claim. You have none whatsoever as expected.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089243#Comment_118089243

If you have evidence to disprove my claim, then by all means reveal your hand. The ball is in your court.

The Raging Bile Duct

Ah nothing more exciting than a 'Prove it! No, you prove it! I asked first! I'm not proving anything until you prove the thing I asked you to prove after you asked me to prove something first!' debate. They really add so much to the conversation.

JoChervil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089130#Comment_118089130

What? You truly can't believe it.

He was doing a show in Brussels for his domestic fans to see it on polish TV. All other reasonable arguments against were not shown. It's how authoritarians acts. He is actually a marionette figure in hands of Kaczynski, who rules from the back seat.

He has no grounding at all. Our constitution is in agreement with EU treaty. They don't have constitutional majority, so they are changing law by simple parliaments acts, which then are confirmed by dependent on them tribunal, that they are in agreement with our constitution, while in fact they are breaking our constitution. They are breaking law and agreements and they were called on it.

But you are right, they can't back down, because they will lose power. And all these changes in our courts are for keeping this power.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089304#Comment_118089304

Agreed; it's a sly diversionary tactic designed to go down an irrelevant rabbit hole.

The Raging Bile Duct

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089359#Comment_118089359

Eh.... you're the person actively engaging in it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089262#Comment_118089262

Typical. Don't be lazy. I'm not researching your argument for you.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087674#Comment_118087674

Would have thought protecting the impartiality of the judiciary was very much an essence of democracy

edit: this isn't the post I was looking the quote and I can't edit it now to change the quote

this Vanilla is utter crap

endabob1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087648#Comment_118087648

The biggest lie pedalled extensively by the Mail/Express etc.. in the UK pre-2016 is that the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats.

There are 2 houses one elected directly by EU voters, the European parliament where our elected MEP's sit, effectively the legislature

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament_en

1 by the elected representatives of each EU state's government, effectively the executive

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en

not dissimilar to our upper and lower houses. Yes there are lots of "unelected bureaucrats" in the same way that the bulk of work done in any government is done by unelected civil servants.

The EU is not perfect, but f--k me the amount of horse sh!t pedalled by the right wing/ little Englander media in the UK which then gets parroted as facts really winds me up.

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089262#Comment_118089262

haha

this is schoolyard stuff

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089038#Comment_118089038

Yes I can and I just did, quite effectively.

Commissioners are nominated by member states, ie the people who are elected to make such high-profile appointments.

Mairead McGuinness is not acting in the interests of Ireland in the Commission, she’s acting in the interests of Europe. Why should there be an election for that? It would be a waste of time and money and we already have a government to make those decisions.

Cordell

I know that some of you have a hard-on for Poland for their stance on immigration and asylum seeker imposed quotas (and I do too) but this is something different. This is about the independence of justice and ultimately preventing the erosion of democracy in the EU member states and the EU is right in this case.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089130#Comment_118089130

If poland is unhappy with the rules then they should not have agreed to them.

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089590#Comment_118089590

And they can remove themselves at any time they please. Nobody is forcing them to stick to the rules when they can follow the UK and leave.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118089304#Comment_118089304

Its easily resolved by the onus being on the alleger to prove their allegations, there is no obligation to disprove something, similar to the court of law.

I thought this was ubiquitously understood.

If allegation unproven, purge from memory so as not to allow allegation to influence one's bias.

joseywhales

The big bad EU comments are hilarious. Of course they invest in countries like Poland to create a market to export to, I thought that was the whole point. Make your neighbours prosperous, so that you can sell them sh*t and so that they are less likely to be violent. Seems smart to me. Better than the old way of economically strangle your neighbour into submission, so that there is inevitable war. It is an enlightened foreign policy.

The fact that you can freely leave the union means it's can never be considered authoritarian.

Poland have basically already left the eu by undemocratic means. Since they no longer respect the role of the ecj in Poland. That is where the autocrat is.

Mercantilism and Democracy make for happy bedfellows to the benefit of all.

ArmaniJeanss

How do the 'The EU commissioners are unelected, its wrong' posters suggest this should be fixed?

Lets say we vote in some way, explain the technicalities to me. Like would we in Ireland just vote for Irelands commissioner, or would be also be voting for Bulgaria's commissioner? Or are we voting for individual commission roles, e.g., an election for Trade commissioner between candidates from Greece, Portugal and Slovakia?

Even the simplest (we vote for our commissioner) seems flawed, unless we know what actual role we are voting them into to. Given a list of candidates I would plausibly vote different depending on whether it's a trade/industrial commission or a banking role.

The current way seems the best, but I'm open to ideas.

fly_agaric

Heh, some maggots have crawled out of the woodwork for this thread to sing Polish govt.s praises!

The Polish govt. are trying to strongarm the other members of the EU + the EU institutions to bless their authoritatrian and corrupt bullshit, swallow their insults and smile like fools.

Do nothing to maintain a quiet life. Keep that structural funds/Corona funds EU money spigot open and flowing through greedy hands of cronies/govt. pals while they just laugh and do what they like.

Don't often agree with Micheál Martin but think he was correct when he recently said the Polish govt. were delivering a "slap in the face" to the rest of us.

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090931#Comment_118090931

What did Martin say about the German court ruling during the summer that also breached EU primacy rules, he kept quiet about that didn't he.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118090967#Comment_118090967

Sigh. From what I have read that issue is not the same, or as serious as what is happening in Poland, but it is always good to rope in Bad Germany again as the usual Eurosceptic punching bag.

OTOH, I think it was 1 ruling, not a case of saying the local law (Constitution) is above EU law at all times if they conflict.

I think the German govt. were also unhappy with that. The Polish govt. seems to be boasting about the decision of their (govt. friendly afair, which is another problem) judges, doubling down and also making some counter-threats against the EU/other members if attempt is made to bring them to book over their behaviour.

wes

Time to suspend voting rights for Poland, and any other measures that can be taken.

Mullaghteelin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087556#Comment_118087556

Pretty much all elderly Brexit voters in advance of the referendum that I listened to, said they would be perfectly happy to remain in a free-trade block like the original EEC. It was the ever-closer union and erosion of sovereignty they had issues with.

Bearing in mind that unlike us, they never had a chance to vote in referendum to protest the direction the EU was moving. Therefore, their frustration with the EU was understandable, in spite of the sneering, ridicule and threats from the pro-EU camps.

Our own politicians tend to play down the ever-closer-union stuff, and repeatedly dismiss talk of an EU army, while at the very same time we will have EU politicians in Brussels say the exact opposite.

I often suspect we would be very quick to turn against the EU if they made unpopular demands that caused our farmers to suffer, or threatened our ability to attract foreign investment.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118091337#Comment_118091337

Bollox. The EU was never just a trading bloc. That's just another Eurosceptic myth. Then there's the usual crap about mean old remoaners...