Sold a Written-Off Car by a SIMI Dealer

KerryGoldinDublin

Hi guys, first time poster.

About a year ago, I bought a car from a SIMI registered dealer. Nothing wrong with the car as such, in fact it has been quite a nice car to drive since I got it. I decided two weeks ago to sell it because I dont really use it that often. I contacted another SIMI dealer to see would they be interested in buying it and they made an offer. They told me to come in on the Thursday for a brief inspection and we do the paperwork after. Two hours before the appointment, they called me to say they couldnt buy the car because it's a category D write-off.

At no stage during the purchase of the car was I informed of this, and it came as quite a shock. I called the original dealer back and he said he told me that the car was "damaged previously" but he conceded that he didnt use the term "write-off" to describe the car. He offered me 66% of the cars value as a refund, even though the car's value has increased since I bought it due to the Brexit/microchips issues.

I have started a process with SIMI now, sent them all the paperwork and details etc. Just wondering has anyone been in this same situation before, or is there anyone who has any advice on this particular situation?

BronsonTB

I'd always advise doing an independent 'cartell or equivalent' check before you buy - Don't ever take any dealers word. (That 35 euro report it worth it weight in gold when you can see things like this before you buy). (I know this is in hinsight)

FYI - 'a SIMI registered dealer' - This should not inspire confidence as a customer - This group lobbies on behalf of dealers, not customers. You say it as if it's a positive thing for a customers benefit, it is not.

Getting 66% back from the seller after a year is deffo a result! - Snap the hand off him & if the car is driving ok, drive away & change car at a later date (By Scraping not selling your current car)

bazz26

I think the dealer offering 66% back on what you paid has some neck to be honest. Used car values have increased since last year because of Brexit and in many cases people are getting more for their cars now than what they paid for them last year. You can be sure that dealer wouldn't make that offer if he didn't think he could sell it on for more again and probably not inform the next owner of it's history either.

As for the SIMI, I wouldn't hold my breathe with them, they will sit on the fence at best I'd imagine and won't want to rule against one of their own members and run the risk of them not renewing their annual membership fees.

okidoki987

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212818/sold-a-written-off-car-by-a-simi-dealer

If it was me, I'd be back to the dealer and insist on at least a full refund, if not more to cover the hassle.

If he refuses and you get no satisfaction from SIMi, I'd involve the guards.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010157#Comment_118010157

This is a civil matter and has nothing to do with the Gardai.

OP, ask the dealer to give you a better refund than 66%. I would imagine that if they gave you a 100% refund they may still be able to sell the car on for more.

If this fails, contact Citizens Advice and CCPC. They will guide you on exactly what to do next.

jmreire

I'd like to see what damage actually was on the car? Some CAT writes offs are economic only...meaning that the damage is light.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010157#Comment_118010157

Can you please tell me what business is it of the gardai and under what criminal codes would they take action.

The dealer would tell you to eff off if you even attempted to threaten the gardai. Nearby as stupid as saying you'll call Joe "whine away" Duffy

A category D write off simply means it is deemed uneconomical to repair. It is the "better" type of write off and is effectively an insurance company deciding not to go to the expense of repairing a very repairable car.

I'd have no issue buying a category D write off.

elperello

How much did you pay for the car?

Darc19

Here's a classic example of a cat d write off.

Car gets side swiped. Side of rear bumper, rear panel, door panels and front panel all have small damage.

No other damage and car drives perfectly.

Value of car €7,000

Cost of new panels and bumper and spraying is €4,000, cost of hire car for two weeks is another €1,000.

Insurance decides it's an uneconomical repair, pay the €7,000 and sell the car to the trade for €2,000.

Dealer fixes it up at trade price and it is perfect condition and sells it on.

That's a category D.

FintanMcluskey

As above a category D "write off" doesn't mean its unsafe when repaired, its just not economically viable for the insurance companies to repair and cover associated costs.

The UK dealers have to declare its history when selling but I'm not sure if its mandatory for Irish dealers to declare it has previously been a Cat D write off.

A Cat D repaired vehicle is often perfect in every way until you try to sell it. I unknowingly bought a Cat D many years ago from a dealer and struggled to sell it when the time came

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011436#Comment_118011436

"A category D write off simply means it is deemed uneconomical to repair. "

That's a cat B I believe.

"Category D The vehicle is economically repairable but other factors are involved that cause the insurer to declare the vehicle a write off.

Perhaps the replacement car hire is too costly or it will take too long for a specialist part to be delivered.

A Cat D is repairable salvage.

The Motor Insurers Anti-Fraud and Theft Register (MIAFTR) defines Cat D as repairable total loss vehicles where repair costs including VAT do nor exceed the vehicle’s pre-accident value (PAV)."

KerryGoldinDublin

The car cost €16,500, and ignoring the write-off status, should now be worth €18,500. If you were to look at the car and even drive it, you wouldn't think it was written off. Had a full service done recently, mechanic was nonethewiser. Had an NCT in April, flew through that. Whether it's safe to drive or not is irrelevant. My insurance told me my policy is invalid now, and I cannot sell the car on either, not at its value anyway.

The law is, you must inform a buyer of a vehicle's write-off status before selling them the car. That applies to both private and dealer sales. I was just wondering if anyone else had any experience in this circumstance.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011581#Comment_118011581

Uneconomic from the insurance point of view.

Another example is a car with minor damage, but which the insurance is for a new replacement.

1874

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010061#Comment_118010061

I'd be taking that 66% or maybe try for a bit more and see, I wouldnt rulle that out or make threats of any action just yet while there is an offer on the table, regardless of car prices going up since regarding Brexit, the refund should be based on what the OP paid. OP gets a refund and keeps the car to drive on? personally, I'd rather conclude something like that quickly rather than drag it out, it might depend somewhat on what the car was, how much was paid (what 66% is now) and what damage there was. I've heard of worse offers, ie nothing and fight them for it? to what end, maybe nothing and the cost to do so.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011601#Comment_118011601

Again, what basis whatsoever is there to take action? Please please enlighten us

There is no requirement to mention a category D write off. Even the car reports may not mention it.

The garage said that there was repaired damage. They were up front about it

Cat D write off is not something to be concerned about. The other garage just doesn't want a car with a minor blemish on its history.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011617#Comment_118011617

Op has said his insurance is invalid and he would have trouble selling it on?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011683#Comment_118011683

OP is facing a big financial hit only getting a refund of 66% of the original price of €16.5k but who is going to give him the real value of the car if he is upfront about the write off status.

Maybe shopping around would get an insurance quote.

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011745#Comment_118011745

Yes,it sounds extreme that he can't get insurance on it now.

I had a thread here from last spring where a fairly big dealer was trying to sell me a cat D write off.I had a mechanic friend run a check on it,not sure if it was any different to your standard cartell etc but this showed up,the dealer certainly wasn't going to tell me.If I had bought that car could I not have had it insured? I doubt it but like I say I don't know a whole lot about it.

gipi

Buddy of mine bought a Cat D car privately 3 years ago. Car had been fully repaired and drove like a dream. 2012 C Class Mercedes.

He did buy it cheaper than equivalent models were selling for at the time (the seller dropped price even more when buddy did the cartell check and found the cat d listing, which hadn't been mentioned).

Never had an issue with insurance,who were aware of the status of the car.

He recently traded in the car, and the dealer told him that cat d cars are worth about 50% of an equivalent non- categorised car. Dealer did take the car as trade-in, gave about 3500 for it.

elperello

https://www.123.ie/customer-care/before-you-insure/acceptance-criteria/can-i-insure-a-previously-written-off-vehicle

This place will do it with conditions.

KerryGoldinDublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011617#Comment_118011617

Mate, honestly, look this up. It is against the law for anyone to sell a write-off (dealer or private) to sell a car without declaring it to the buyer that it has a write-off status on the car...

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011537#Comment_118011537

They are basically a " car for life", if you bought it knowing its previous damaged history. To compensate for this, you would want to be getting it at a bargain price !!.. There's many a car on Irish roads that had "a tip", without any serious structural damage ( previous poster mentioned damage to the side and rear of a car, which was an economic write off, but car was still perfectly sound ) this was the insurance definition, but like I said there's many cars repaired without insurance involvement, hence no record....."sure, it was only a tip, a scrape along the side!!!

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011617#Comment_118011617

A motor dealer does have an obligation to inform a buyer of any previous crash history when selling a car. They cannot mislead or claim ignorance either as they are deemed experts in their field of profession - i.e. a motor trader who buys and sells vehicles. Saying the car was damage repaired is a very vague way of getting around that and imo a sharp practice by the dealer. There are too many of these type traders out there who were buying write offs from UK auctions for knockdown prices and then selling them onto customers over here at full price and claiming they only had a bumper painted or replaced.

Also while a Cat D might be the lowest classification of damage it certainly should have concerns when it comes to insuring it and selling it on as the OP has found out. It's listed as write off on any history report for as long as it's on the road now. And the other garage doesn't want it not because it's a blemish but because they don't want the hassle of a customer coming back to them looking for their money back or gaining a reputation for selling "write offs".

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011536#Comment_118011536

That wouldn't be a write off,

it would be repaired at a cost of 5k to the insurance co. with no cat d attached to it's history.

There is a difference between uneconomical to repair and uneconomical from an insurance point of view.

Put simply; if the repair plus vat costs less than the PAV.(pre accident value) ,that's economical repair,

if other factors eg. hire car costs brings the total cost to more than the PAV. then it's still an economical repair

but uneconomical for insurers and so is classed as category D

BronsonTB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011745#Comment_118011745

They also got to drive the car for a year & taking deprciation into account - And if it took years to sort ll this out....still think he'd be better taking the 66% now & keep driving the car.

Going to court can take time/money & a lot of effort to get very little back overall in the end...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012679#Comment_118012679

Depreciation? This year?

They were sold a write off, why should they be out of pocket at all? What 16K car is losing over 5K in a year?

BronsonTB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012708#Comment_118012708

I agree they shouldn't be out of pocket ideally but this could drag on trying to get a full refund & end up costing them through time off to be in court, solicitors fees, delays etc on top of only getting the original price back - Just have to weigh up if it's work all that when they are being offer 66% now without the hassle of it all. They were sold a cat d - Plenty of them on the road (They can be repaired & put back on the road so not dangerous cars!)

OP should jsut learn from this -Always do a car check & don't take any dealers word...ever....going forward...

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012679#Comment_118012679

I'm not sure the offer is 66% and he still gets to drive the car??!

SmartinMartin

Practically speaking, are you fuckin nuts?

On one hand you have 11 grand in your pocket and are free to buy whatever you want. You've taken a hit but you're a cash buyer with no ties.

On the other hand you have a rotting lemon sitting on your driveway that you can't sell and can't insure, depreciating faster than Armenian Drams.

I think you are very lucky to get a fair dealer who would actually refund you, most would fob you off.

Jump at the refund and move on.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011617#Comment_118011617

I would definitely ignore this poster. Talking absolutely nonsense.

User1998

OP please just refer back to my post about contacting Citizens Advice and the CCPC. The CCPC have a section of their website dedicated to buying cars and you will get sorted there. Everything else is just opinion and there is a lot of bad advice being given here

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011596#Comment_118011596

How did the insurance people become aware of this....

Anyway i will tell you what i know... neighbor sold car and when examined was told written off in UK so deal cancelled.

Got car examined and passed as fit for road so was able to sell the car...

KerryGoldinDublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012708#Comment_118012708

Mate, to echo your sentiments, cars of this kind have actually increased in value. Iv put less than 10,000kms on the car since buying it.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014823#Comment_118014823

So you bought a car and had it insured and now the insurance cancelled ... that cannot happen for no reason while the car in your possession in my view...

How did insurance get cancelled?

Vestiapx

can we have clarification please is it 66% back n keep the car or 66% back and return the car?

KerryGoldinDublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016070#Comment_118016070

66% refund and return the car to the original dealer.

KerryGoldinDublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016062#Comment_118016062

I'm required by law to inform my insurance company of the status of the car. At the end of the day, I have a child that does be in that car with me. Last thing I need is to be in an accident and then find out my insurance was null and void.

HBC08

Realistically OP you're in a no win situation if you can't insure or sell car.

You kind of have to take the dealers offer which is unfortunate as he's messed you over,will not face any consequences and will sell the car on again at a profit.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016223#Comment_118016223

I actually spoke to the person that i mentioned today and asked... reply sold car buyer tries insurance to be told car wrote off some time before in uk.

Gets professional engineers report cost €150 and they sold car... thats all i know...

BENDYBINN

So a cat d car cannot be insured even if properly repaired?.....why are they sold on to the trade then?

A lot of rubbish spoken here.....

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016381#Comment_118016381

Certainly a degree of confusion...

Category D cars exist and are bought and sold and insured.

As long as the buyers, sellers and insurers know the status of the cars there is no problem.

BENDYBINN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016442#Comment_118016442

And if buyer and seller don’t know?

KerryGoldinDublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016381#Comment_118016381

I have to get an independent engineer to inspect the car, at a cost of €200 (not €150 as quoted above). Then insurance will insure my car but premium will be higher.

chooseusername

deleted

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016466#Comment_118016466

Well then obviously there is a problem as evidenced by the OP's predicament.

BENDYBINN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016561#Comment_118016561

Are they insured or not? Are you makin this up as you go along?

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016521#Comment_118016521

That's called inflation as a couple of years ago and i just passing on info...

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016574#Comment_118016574

Are you just trying to be controversial ?

It is clear that Category D cars can be insured.

BENDYBINN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016629#Comment_118016629

Again, if owner doesn't know his car is a cat d.... Is his insurance null and void.? A simple yes or no please..

Nozebleed

id be inclined to park the car outside the garage in question with a nice big sign in the window notifying the public of the situation. that'll get his arse in gear regarding a total refund.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016657#Comment_118016657

I just said in a post (#41) which you replied to that buyers, sellers and insurers not knowing the status of a Cat D car is an issue.

In a post earlier today I linked to an insurance company that will insure Cat Ds and their conditions.