Why no citizenship test?

Pixel Eater

So I know a few people who got/are in the process of applying for Irish citizenship. That's fine but after chatting to them it soon became apparent that they knew very little (practically nothing in one case) about Ireland. I mean basic stuff; like how many counties there is, who's the current Taoiseach, stuff like that.

So I was wondering what's the rationale of not having a citizenship test? We're a complete outlier in this, especially in a European context; there's not even some sort of language test. Would seem like a pretty obvious thing to have.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212242/why-no-citizenship-test

Huge numbers of foreign born irish nationals would fail - and they're already citizens.

votecounts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993580#Comment_117993580

A sizeable portion of Irish born people would probably fail too.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993580#Comment_117993580

a large number of irish born irish nationals would fail

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993592#Comment_117993592

Well that would reflect badly on any individual who would fail but I guess they have the advantage of being born here and wouldn't have to take it.

Doesn't really help in answering my question though.

.42.

They could use the following Q&A which would be acceptable

https://youtu.be/HP-E3XLKu4A

iamstop

I don't really see the need for it. What purpose would it really serve? Try to instill some sense of nationalism in to people? To what end? So you can reject people's bid for citizenship for not knowing about Michael Collins or The Famine or Home Rule? Would that really be a defining factor for their suitability into Irish society? Should be more focused on people with violent and criminal tendencies over their ability to recall historical bullet points learned by rote.

Would be a waste of money and resources IMHO.

mikethecop

the way some Irish political parties re write history sure it wouldn't be fair to test anyone on Irish history .

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993769#Comment_117993769

Well the test could be designed to foster integration. Sure there would be a section on the basic history and geography of the country but also the applicant would need to know the political system, voting, how the various arms of the state work - practical stuff. And also knowing the culture of their new home; like traditions and festivals and the meaning behind them. And having a high ability to speak the language is vital.

And I don't see the issue about a foreigner knowing about the Famine; surely knowing a little about the country you decide to live in is a positive thing.

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993811#Comment_117993811

It would hardly just be a history test.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212242/why-no-citizenship-test

The people I know who went through citizenship said it was a joke.

Pixel Eater

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993922#Comment_117993922

What was a joke; the actually process of getting citizenship? How so?

Wombatman

How many variations of spuds should you server with the Christmas dinner?

What is the best way to get badly sun burnt while only getting 4 sunny days a year?

Will Mayo every win Sam again?

Who are Zig and Zag?

How much money should you stick in a wedding card for two guests?

True or False: It is right and proper to refer to the British as Tans?

Who coined the phrase "Don't make unnecessary journeys"?

What parish are you from?

Parachutes

We give them out far too easily anyway. Collect 7 crisp packets and become an Irish citizen comes to mind. A citizenship test should be the bare minimum.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993626#Comment_117993626

Really? You know this how?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994026#Comment_117994026

I'm not sure I would mandate a citizenship test to validate general knowledge about Irish history and culture. However, citizenship should be conditional on some baseline criteria such as:

1. Economically self-sufficient for four of the previous five years.
2. Have attained a minimum level of B1 in one of the official national languages.
3. Clean criminal record for the duration of tenure in Ireland.

There should be a minimum set of criteria that applicants need to fulfill, to be afforded the significant privilege of Irish citizenship.

Apiarist

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_naturalisation.html :

------------------------

You must have lived in the State for a certain length of time. The specific requirements are that you:

• Have a period of 365 days* (1 year) continuous reckonable residence in the State immediately before the date of your application for naturalisation and
• During the 8 years before that, have had a total reckonable residence in the State of 1,460 days* (4 years)

------------------------

Reckonable residence for people who have no Irish spouse or ancestors basically means working full time and paying taxes for 5 of the last 8 years.

Applicants must of 'good character' and have to provide police reports from countries they lived previously.

There is no language check. It's a pity actually, why should only the people born in Ireland endure An Gaeilge in school ;)

Also, no paupers need apply, the application process fees total €1125.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994132#Comment_117994132

1) already exists to all intents and purposes.

You could have a test, and I understand the surface appeal, but ultimately what is the point?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994192#Comment_117994192

I agree that a test is superfluous. Personally and this is just my personal opinion, demonstrable evidence of five years' of economic self-sufficiency throughout the last eight, is too loose. I would bump this to six.

My other points stand. If you are applying to naturalize as Irish, it's reasonable to enforce minimum standards around language acquisition and (lack of) criminality.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994132#Comment_117994132

If only we could apply those criteria to people who were born here and throw those who don't meet them out

osarusan

Most Canadians don’t know their country as well as they may think, a new poll suggests.The survey, released in time for Canada Day, asked a random sample of 1,645 voters 10 questions from the study guide given to those looking to become Canadian citizens.The results weren’t great. Only 12 per cent of respondents got eight or more correct answers, the threshold to pass the test. The average score was five out of 10.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/nearly-9-in-10-canadians-would-fail-the-citizenship-test-poll-1.4489704

There is turmoil in the strange world of citizenship tests. The UK is planning to revise its test for would-be Britons, adding questions on crucial issues such as the life of the poet Robert Browning. In France’s test, introduced this month, applicants must obviously know about Brigitte Bardot. Meanwhile a recent survey by Xavier University found that more than one-third of Americans would fail their own country’s naturalisation test. Only 8 per cent could name even one author of the Federalist Papers. And Denmark is quietly scrapping its test.

https://www.ft.com/content/d7489dc2-caea-11e1-8872-00144feabdc0

iamstop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994026#Comment_117994026

The practical should be to make a cuppa the right way.

Rasher_Sausage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212242/why-no-citizenship-test

Maybe get Irish born and who have lived here their entire life to do it also, as quite a number of Irish people know **** all about the country, and also maybe get them to take in Irish.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994294#Comment_117994294

Indeed. But that's irrelevant to this discussion.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994347#Comment_117994347

Again, how is that relevant to the naturalization process?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994100#Comment_117994100

by living in the real world.

Parachutes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994132#Comment_117994132

Is it really too much to ask a potential new citizen of the state know simple things like there are 4 provinces, Micheal Martin is the Taoiseach, we gained our independence in 1922 etc?

FunLover18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994514#Comment_117994514

We didn't gain independence in 1922.

EDIT: depending on what you count as independence, we gained dominion status.

trashcan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994026#Comment_117994026

Must be Tayto crisp packets though. Don’t imply we have no standards at all !

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994514#Comment_117994514

Does it gain anything useful against the inevitable administrative cost?

Not to mention, as we now see in the UK, any citizenship test is dangerously open to political interference to ensure the "correct" answers are the ones the current government wants.

Galwayguy35

Sure the government are going to give citizenship to all the illegals who broke the law here by over staying so I doubt a test is high on their list of things to do.

Free houses and money for all who turn up here and no chance of being sent back thanks to Roddy O Gorman

Yurt2

As another poster said, a language test in one of our two national languages would be an idea. I've met an individual waving an Irish passport in a professional context who had next to no English, had to conduct the convo in a mutually shared language.

It left me wondering how many more cases like this there are. Probably more than official Ireland would like to admit.

We'd be one of the few (only I'd suspect) European countries not to administer a language standard for citizenship. France, Denmark etc ain't handing over passports to naturalisation candidates who don't have the national language to a somewhat high level.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994711#Comment_117994711

100% agree that citizenship should be tied to a baseline level of language proficiency.

In terms of testing for Irish cultural literacy, it's more of a 'nice to have' rather than a pre-requisite. I work in the tech sector; ca. 50% of my colleagues are from abroad, some of whom are in the process of taking out Irish citizenship. Frankly, the majority of them have little interest in Irish society, culture, or dare I say, Irish people. Most live in an ex-pat / immigrant bubble and rarely interact with Irish people outside of work. I would prefer that they showed more interest in their host society and didn't view an Irish passport in such a transactional manner. However, that's not for me to mandate.

It's their loss at the end of the day. As long as they are gainfully employed, pay their taxes, do not engage in crime, and speak enough English to communicate effectively, I couldn't care less how they live their lives. In truth, most of my Irish colleagues are equally as disinterested in them on a personal level, so it's pretty quid pro quo.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994711#Comment_117994711

Whatever about knowledge of history, current affairs or culinary habits and such, a grasp of one of our official languages should be the basic minimum requirement. It's really not a lot to ask.

Sand

When it comes to a citizenship test, we are describing a test for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to meet the conditions to turn out for the Irish football team if they were good enough. Which are loose enough to accommodate Tony Cascarino. To be honest, why would we be concerned if such people were "Irish" or not? By any measure they would only be nominally Irish. They might hold Irish passports or Irish citizenship, but never be ethnically Irish. The ethnic Irish might be concerned with the English, or the Famine, or Michael Collins because that is the story of our own people. People who hold Irish passports/citizenship but are not ethnically Irish might correctly view that as a foreign peoples history. We need to differentiate between ethnicity and citizenship, because they are not one and the same in the modern world.

Strumms

Probably should be one, however it would be a political mine field trying to introduce it... whatever party suggests it or attempts to implement it would take more of a kicking than praise....

The danger would be it would give the likes of SF a shot in the arm...I mean with their schtick on immigration as is that lot are only fûcking short of suggesting that we reimburse applicants their air fare, successful or otherwise....

first person to fail would be giving out wanting a resit.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996212#Comment_117996212

Keeping politics out of it as much as possible would be the ideal. A basic test in English would be grand. They don't even need to be fully proficient - a Ballybough or Tuam level of English as a minimum should be enough to participate in society.

joseywhales

Ah the oul history test. I did it for the Canadian citizenship, I was hungover and just before the flight, found a website with a question bank. I did that for an hour and got 100% in the test.

Because of my huge interest and time invested in understanding Canadian culture? No, because English is my first language and I can use the internet.

What does it really prove?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996306#Comment_117996306

What does it prove? How little interest you have in the national story of the country in which you reside / resided. If you’re borderline disrespectful to the country you choose / chose to call home, that’s on you.

You’re pretty much identical to my colleagues described above. This is why I believe that a citizenship test is futile. Instead, we should insist on the fundamentals of economic self-sufficiency, language, and refraining from criminality.

SortingYouOut

What is knowing how many counties there are going to do for us?

Plenty of dickheads know that answer, so it's not like we're rooting out anything.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212242/why-no-citizenship-test

Just curious, did you ask as part of your enquiry, how much its costing these people to apply for citizenship, I know many wonderful people from various countries who've gone through the process having lived and worked here for over 10 years, personally, most seem to know more about Ireland than actual Irish Citizens. Anyone, who spends years, working and living in Ireland and is prepared not just to go through a complex citizen application process but an expensive one, gets a pass from me, Citizen Test or no test.

When you can turn up to your citizenship ceremony, wearing the uniform/stigmata of a viscious, fascist, totalitarian idealogy that would enslave us all in a heartbeat and still get your citizenship, it show we need to stop handing citizenship out like confetti.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996383#Comment_117996383

I work in an MNC where almost 50% of the staff are non-Irish. I’m also a people manager, so interact with a lot of different folks.

The majority know very little about Ireland or the culture of this country, contrary to your assertion. In fact, one Brazilian chap is noteworthy for the time he has taken to understand his surroundings and to forge friendships with Irish people.

It scarcely registers for most of the others. They mostly see Irish citizenship in purely utilitarian terms and make no bones about it. As for cost, it’s a small price to pay to be afforded the privilege of citizenship of this wonderful country that our forebears have handed down to us.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996399#Comment_117996399

Why such a hang up on knowing about Irish Culture exactly, what has that got to do with becoming a citizen 🤔

I've worked in 15 countries over 30 years, fantastic experiences , met some wonderful people, not once did learning about their culture enter my mind, yes, I saw some fascinating places. I seem to recall however, when for example in the USA, Irish people I got to know, went to Irish Pubs, Celebrated Irish Holidays (Paddy's), I personally had Irish Butter and T Bags sent to me across the world.

Here, I see Polish people live, work and contribute to Irish Society, but equally celebrate their own culture, Holiday's etc. People's identity doesn't change, I believe when and if they decide to take up citizenship, nor should it.

I'm an avid reader of History, for example I'd know more about the American Civil war than I would about the Easter Rising etc.

Citizen Tests seem to me to be completely un necessary, is it really that important a foreign national seeking citizenship needs to know who Michael Collins is, is it really necessary they know what the four provinces are, it just completely unnecessary.

I will admit, a basic understanding of the English language could be required ( perhaps it is, I don't know), but I suspect most applicant's have that mastered long before applying for citizenship, are we then to require applicant's can speak fluent Irish?, when such a small percentage of Irish people either speak or understand the Irish language (I'm one to my shame admittedly)

I'm just not getting why any citizenship test should require an understanding of things that ultimately don't affect or concern a citizens daily life.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996460#Comment_117996460

1. ’Hang-up’? Not at all. I’m simply countering your assertion that apparently many foreigners living here know more about this country than actual Irish people. Fun fact. I manage people from the Indian sub continent and Latin America who have zero idea of the identity of the Taoiseach, that the Irish language isn’t English spoken with an Hiberno accent, and that Belfast lies in a different jurisdiction. Many of these folks are on the citizenship track. They’re simply clueless about where they choose to live. This bleeds into their personal lives where they inhabit bubbles of their own nationality. Does it affect their work performance? No. Do I care how they conduct their lives? No. Does it cheapen the value of Irish citizenship? Debatable.
2. ‘A basic level of English’? It takes more than a basic level of English to be economically self-sufficient. That’s the bottom line. Have these people acquired a sufficient grasp of the language to be economically active. Preferably, they should also have the ability to engage with the majority population, but if they choose not to do so, that’s on them.
3. I say this as somebody who lived in another EU country for a decade without having any intention of taking out citizenship. I made damn sure to learn the language fluently and to blend into the local culture, by learning something of the national story and taking an interest in local sporting and cultural events. For me, it’s about showing some interest in and respect to the country you have chosen to call home.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996395#Comment_117996395

A Mayo jersey?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996383#Comment_117996383

It is certainly not the case that most foreigners living in Ireland for more than 10 years know more than "actual Irish Citizens".

It may be that the "actual Irish Citizens" you know and hang around with are particularly ignorant

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212242/why-no-citizenship-test

why? surely it would be more important to see what they have to bring to our society, what qualifications and training they have had, and what type of jobs they would like to pursue, and what type of training they require to do so, ffs!!!!

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996600#Comment_117996600

Re Point One , And ????

RE Point Two , you know exactly what I meant about an understanding of the English language.

RE Point Three, I take your point about learning a language fluently if an intention was to stay very long term , however I respectively suggest English would be far easier to learn as a language than for example Indian with its numerous dialects, indeed some European languages extremely complex and Scandinavian languages also. Helpfully most of these have English as a second language.

I'm sensing a slightly concerning different narrative to the original question raised in OP so, I leave my contribution at that and my opinion still stands .

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996628#Comment_117996628

No but I can see were this Thread going , so I'm outta of it Donald Trump 🙄

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993592#Comment_117993592

I was just going to post that