I want my multi-million house back

Shoog

Though I agree with you that work is expensive to do in Ireland and in many cases its simply not cost effective to actually go to work, I have observed that there is no shortage of massive modern houses out in the country of Ireland - so work is obviously lucrative enough for some and Ireland is a rich country overall.

What I see is people showing off with their massive houses and overstretching themselves to the point where they easily run into troubles with paying for the dream. The crazy thing for me is that often these are late middle age couples who will soon need to downsize when their children stop coming home on a regular basis. A looming crisis for the country is a shortage of small appropriately sized properties for retiring couples/singles to move into and then the tracks of mega houses which will be left stranded as the young can neither afford or want to buy them. As it is I can see us returning to the "good old days" where the elderly couple can only afford to heat the kitchen and the rest of the house goes unused.

Crazy situation.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996471#Comment_117996471

https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/ireland/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995066#Comment_117995066

The politician bill is large for the number of politician but small out of the total government spending.. Quangos and charities that are mostly funded by government largesse are loosing billions. If these were abolished, one would see lots of nice middle class people unemployed but probably no great difference to the service users!

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996512#Comment_117996512

Its certainly not that simple, those charities and quangos do essential public services which if not carried out by them would likely need to be done by Government at considerably higher cost.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996451#Comment_117996451

if ireland was so terrible our population would be decreasing, it’s not. It’s increasing.

We have some issues but completely overblown by some media sources and some political parties.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996533#Comment_117996533

at massively overinflated prices. for example i remember when charities would actually publish an annual report where you divide the number of people helped into their total expenditure.. a big national homeless charity was spending c 18,000euro per annum per person helped,, as per their report.. over the last 3 years their annual reports figures presented makes it impossible to calculate this average

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996717#Comment_117996717

... but my point is still valid, the Government would have to take on those functions and I guarantee that they would cost far more if they were run by government. Did you not wonder why governments pay the charities ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996737#Comment_117996737

So they dont get held resposible later.. and that 18000 , from their reports are c 75 % government funded.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996752#Comment_117996752

Not an answer to my question really. Do you think it would be cheaper if the Government did what charities do ?

Clever fails when it doesn't answer the point.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996179#Comment_117996179

It has been established for over a hundred years that property taxes are superior taxes.

Obviously nobody like paying any tax.

We want to design a tax system with the least negative side effects.

Property taxes are superior than income taxes, for several reasons.

That is why they have been implemented all around the world.

Think about it - dozens and dozens of countries have property taxes, for decades and decades, so obviously they are a sensible tax.

Geuze

Very few people have problems paying the LPT.

By definition, it is only paid by house owners.

These same house owners have annual bills for maintenance, repairs, utilities, which are way higher than the LPT.

In the past two years I have spent maybe 10,000 on the house.

I have paid 800-900 LPT.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996832#Comment_117996832

They are not. because even if you are earning very little and you own your house, you are f*cked and in some places they take the house from you. Even though you supposedly own it. You are merely renting from the government at some low rate that they can add a few zeros after if they feel like it in the budget

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993938#Comment_117993938

You think that's why rates were abolished?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997012#Comment_117997012

Yes, you own your own house, thus making you vastly more wealthy then those working and renting. Why should they pay more?

Madeoface

Can we get back to bitchin about the two greedy aul codgers with the property empire that had the loony left supporting them, SF never letting hard facts get in the way of outrage again..

I would like to have seen these particularly greedy pigs jailed but in the end they must have sold one of their 30 properties to pay back what they owed.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997012#Comment_117997012

I am interested in the way some people are so confident about their beliefs, even though the evidence is overwhelmingly against them.

In dozens of countries, over decades and decades, Govts of various types have agreed that property taxes are sensible, and better than alternative taxes.

The vast majority of economists agree with this (I'd say 99% of them).

Loads of writers / thinkers / politicians agree with this.

I wish I had the confidence to ignore all the decades of evidence and analysis.

I will try to get the Mirrlees report for you later.

VinLieger

Don't forget that a property tax outside of Ireland is considered part of a left wing/socialist agenda and has massive support from the respective left wing and socialist parties in countries it is applied. It is only Ireland where our so called socialists are against the exact same system.

Shoog

If you have built such a massive unmanagable house that you cannot pay the LPT on it - then I think your greed exceeded your ability at some point in your history.

Triangle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994466#Comment_117994466

Eotr, you have a polarised viewpoint on property tax. As mentioned before its a very efficient way of collecting tax and the rich cant avoid it.

Instead of abolishing it, your time would be better spent working on increasing income for lower income families. Especially by ways where the rich can avoid taxes

Edit: i do think the higher bands need increased though. Anything over a million should cost more than taxing a RX8 annually.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990568#Comment_117990568

Unfortunately that's the same attitude our government takes to use of our tax. Every major project is a blank cheque to BAM et al.

We could have fixed the water network 3 times over (no hyperbole), with the money wasted on Irish Water.

Given how we've seen the Brits squander billions on Tory donors, during pandemic, we were also right to question Siteserve's connection to FG.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999899#Comment_117999899

Not sure thats true with regard to Irish Water, I worked in the water industry and I can tell you that it was only the introduction of Irish water which made local councils upgrade their plant and address their leak problem. Frankly the local councils were incapable of getting their act together without external intervention from Irish Water. There were areas of Roscommon which had been on permanent boil notices for 2-3 years before Irish Water provided the finance and the incentive to upgrade their treatment plant. Irish Water have seen network loses drop by up to 1/2 in some areas.

It was chronic underfunding and a poor council culture which lefty us with such a dysfunctional water system - and Irish Water was the appropriate cure. Its just a shame that with the abolition of charges they have been hobbled.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999916#Comment_117999916

I've no issue with central control, I would encourage it for a national network.

Everything other than that was botched and wasteful. The cost of installing the failed meters alone would have paid for the infrastructure repair on the network, preventing leaks which would have actually conserved water. Stopping those leaks would have saved more water than metering ever would.

I'm pro-charges BTW. I think it should have been done based on the same style of the LPT. Local regions given a flat (but variable) charge, with it flexing each year based on usage measured at the local provider. That way your areas with private swimming pools would still pay more than your 3 bed semi-d.

Also, our government never guaranteed that the funds made would be ring fenced for water.

Water, LPT, USC, and other charges were only ever implemented to allow government to fund the bailout from central tax.

It's a major pity as we've no hope of a proper water charge now

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999953#Comment_117999953

Usage charges are infinitely more appropriate than any type of flat rate charging system. They cut demand by 50% on average and they encourage conservation. Water Meters were the correct way to charge for water and the wastage only came when the implementation of the water charges was botched by an incompetent government. Here's my own personal example, I have 16 thousand liters of water tanks for rainwater and I insisted on having a water meter be installed so that I would gain the advantages of my own water conservation efforts. I ask you, where is the incentive for anyone to conserve water and collect rainwater in the present system. Every liter that I provide of my own supply is a saving to you the other users of the system - but I see zero benefit and am infact worse off for providing my own supply.

Can you not see that having no price on water actually encourages people to waste water by installing things like power showers, power washers, lawn sprinklers, swimming pools etc. If you want luxury water wasting life style features you should have to pay the full price for using them.

The only concession I would offer on usage charging is those people who have essential water usage above the normal should receive an automatic rebate of part of their charge.

It was a disaster abolishing water charges, an act of political cowardise and neck saving from the same government who botched their introduction. It will hobble all future governments ability to maintain a safe effective water supply network.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995037#Comment_117995037

Cut foreign aid to the bone. Give Childrens Allowance as a tax break after child 2. Cut dole payments. Garnish dole payments for unpaid rent. Cut payments to NGOs. Hundreds of millions saved there.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990268#Comment_117990268

Great theory, if it wasn't for my memory that all these things were provided prior to there being an LPT. What USC, LPT and surcharges an all forms of insurance, and so forth, are actually doing is part funding a pay increase for the second most highly paid civil service in the EU.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993938#Comment_117993938

Property tax isn't unaffordable. For a €500,000 house in Dublin, it is around €9 a week. Less than a pack of cigarettes.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990571#Comment_117990571

The privatisation of our water service is a particular sticking point for me. The government spent billions on a tendering process instead of investing that directly into the infrastructure. I don't mind the idea of paying for water provided the service is set up and run in a transparent way. It's a limited resource, and one that's becoming more scarce and requires huge investment, the money has to come from somewhere.

The way it was handled was awful and detrimental to the state, total waste of cash and people should be getting hung out to dry for it.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003628#Comment_118003628

"Billions" on tendering- seriously. Can you back that up with anything whatsoever.

Water services HAVE NOT been privatised. It is semi-state just like many critical services such as ESB Networks and Bord gais. But some people believe the rubbish spouted by the looney leftist politicians such as paul murphy.

Prior to Irish Water, water services were run by county councils, many of whom had very limited experience of running a high standard water service. Some were so incompetent that they put waste water treatment plants next to water purification plants (Roscommon & Galway) which mean boil water notices for many years.

Councils still have oversight and this is still a problem, but at least the infrastructure is now led by a team that would match most international reams and not some local council operative.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003885#Comment_118003885

Aside from the hyperbole "looney leftist" or whatever other bingo phrase you want, yes, a quick google will show massive amounts of money pumped into Irish Water. I may be wrong in the numbers purely for the tendering process, but setting up Irish Water was handled badly and at a cost of ten times the original estimate.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20467510.html

"“We were told the total set-up costs of consultants would be less than €20m,” said Mr O’Dowd. “That’s the truth. And what happened? It was over €200m. They went crazy with consultants, they spent money left, right, and centre"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-contracts-never-went-to-tender-29913224.html

Four major contracts relating to Irish Water were never put to public tender, possibly costing the state a lot more than was needed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-will-it-cost-to-set-up-irish-water-1921250-Feb2015/

An article from 2015, so who knows that the amount is at this point. "The semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively." We're looking at close to 3 Billion Euro by the end of 2016, that was 5 years ago.

It may be considered semi-state like ESB or Bord Gais, but so far it seems to be operating with a lot less direction or budget control than those bodies (despite Bord Gais being the parent company). Having dealt with ESB on many occasions through work I can safely say it is a reliable body that I would believe to be operating above board. The same cannot be said of Irish Water.

I agree that relying on County Councils to maintain the water system is not sustainable and in fact detrimental overall, the format in which Irish Water is allowed to exist is also detrimental and the amount of money pumped into it could certainly have been better used.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999899#Comment_117999899

Nonsense, the only way of fixing our water network is to ensure that the water service has its own ring-fenced funding, which can only be done through a system of water charges based on usage, the standard way to do this all across Europe.