I want my multi-million house back

Spanish Eyes

I think SF is going to get a big fright and a huge wake up call when they win the next election, and I think they will.... their time has come.

Cut taxes, houses for all, the rich will pay lol. There aren't enough "rich" people in this country to make a tiny dent in revenue lost from abolishing LPT, not a chance. I also am flummoxed at their policy of abolishing USC, the only tax out there that is impossible to avoid. Best thing that ever happened to our tax code. If they wanted to do anything to help the downtrodden then exempt the first €x of income or something, but imagine allowing the wealthy a free pass also. Bizarre.

SF will have to tell us where they are planning on making up the shortfall from their generous tax reduction policies, while still expecting houses and services for all. It will be very different when they have to balance the books, not like now where they are excellent hurlers on the ditch. Will be a shock I think.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995413#Comment_117995413

well no obviously i wouldn't wish to pass the burden on to peoples grand children or even children, however i believe that too many people are suffering hardship because of these specific charges and i do not wish for this to be the case which is why i wish to remove them so as to help most people, and i believe that we can afford to do it as we are a reasonably wealthy country, even in this current period.

perhapse as a compromise to those in favour of lpt, it could be kept on empty properties and massively raised, that way we all get some bit of what we want.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995132#Comment_117995132

whatever the costs would be, i don't have access to all of the mountains of necessary information to do a comprehensive review sadly, so would e unable to give specific figures.

but i do think over all the costs would be less in the long run as you would require less high level management positions.

pay for politicians in ireland would be a few million at least, more with all of the allowences and expences i should think, i would be surprised if there were no savings to be made anyway.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995686#Comment_117995686

So you've no figures, no information and no clue but make grand statements as if you do

If you cut politicians salaries and expenses to zero it wouldn't make a dent on the loss of LPT income.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tc5koPaJyM&ab_channel=IrishExaminer

The original video, for those who don't remember.

Ubbquittious

Paying every year to live in your own house. What a load of bullsh1t. I really don't get it what is it with people on here and their perma-hardon for property tax. People in real life don't look forward to taxing their car or smile with delight when they see a big chunk of their wages taken off their pay slip but property tax is praised like it's the dog's bollix.

Do people get some warm fuzzy feeling after pulling out their credit card and paying it, like they're part of the club now?

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993938#Comment_117993938

It was an election gimmick.Rates might have been high then but they were used effectively.The sale in 1977 has never been topped by any party since.it was the start of an escalation in the national debt.The current debt of 280 billion + doesn't stop the resident crop in the Dail making promises though.

topmanamillion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996216#Comment_117996216

National debt is not like household debt. You never repay most of it. 

People on here quote the national debt simply to win an argument but by and large have no idea how the bond markets operate or how national debt is serviced. In their world a man in a bowler hat could knock on the door of the Dail looking for his €250 billion any moment now.

The reality is our debt to GDP is bout 60% which is a very similar figure to Germanys.

We have huge issues in this country and now is the time to spend to fix them. Leaving future generations without access to housing, education and basic utilities will be alot more of a problem than a national debt.

Dempo1

I'm not doubting when some of the facts came to light about the Case OP highlighted, I was quite shocked. But sadly cases such as these, involving couples or indeed individuals with vast and seperate property portfolios take away / deflect from literally 10"s of thousands of ordinary citizens, some who made genuine mistakes, most who found themselves in serious arrears through no fault of theirs and for a host of different reasons.

I do not subscribe to the notion, arrears and repossessions are the reason Irelands mortgage interest rates are the 2nd highest in Europe. Ireland outrageous mortgage interest rates have been extortionate for 40 years, that's just a simple fact.

I was struck to learn last week, 132 repossessions cases listed at one Midlands circuit court were none involved high net worth individuals, all involved families or individuals on the bread line. I can only assume every Circuit court around the country is dealing with similar numbers and probably much higher in larger towns, Cities.

I've no shame in admitting my own challenges, albeit I will say health challenges impacted my Mortgage problems, which I might add were small in comparison to some cases I've read about, my own situation, thankfully almost resolved and I might add, with no hand outs, discounts or costs to anyone but myself. The vulture fund who purchased my mortgage from one of the 3 main banks remaining at a substantial discount obviously incurred administrative costs, but my heart bleeds for them, my case never went legal as such.

I constantly hear the narrative that people just decide not to pay their mortgages, Bury their heads in the sand etc, and whilst I'm absolutely sure this does happen, I'd reckon its a very small percentage that don't engage or pay something, interest only etc. I certainly would not be defending the couple mentioned in the OP. I also should mention, dealing with faceless vulture funds is an absolute nightmare, Ironically despite my genuine efforts and with small arrears, I had to engage Mabs to actually get responses and access to documentation, statements etc. They were shocked by some of the correspondence from the Vulture fund I was dealing with and indeed lack of communication from them and it turns out I wasn't alone in facing challenges dealing with VF"s so I just ask people to be a little more objective in their assumptions. Yes, their are chancer's out there but the vast majority of cases involve quite ordinary decent people trying to save their homes, most making an effort.

Re LPT/Water charges and rural living, I personally had no issue with small water charges, I've always paid for water either by way of a group water scheme and now a well with pump at substantial cost. Rural dwellers see practically zero return from paying LPT, Roads maintenance Alledgedly paid for through motor taxation, Street Lighting (none exists) in villages this is Alledgedly paid through business rates, Sewage/ Waste, I maintain my own septic tank/ water treatments, the list goes on and on. I do pay the smaller band of LPT but won't be happy if it increases.

So, that's my Saturday morning contribution over, I won't be getting into a back and fourth re mortgage repossessions, arrears, just felt it mentioning the other side of this story, which has by no means gone away, I actually believe its going to get worse over the coming year.

riddles

Ireland is a great country to live in but not so much to work in. Which is a) why so many can’t afford to work and b) why so many people who migrate here can’t afford to work.

The affordability of working is a concept people don’t seem to grasp. So our viability as an economy lies in making work more affordable.

The expectation that pensions for someone who works for forty years is now totally unaffordable but unlimited welfare exists for someone with no contributions to the system is totally bizarre.

we are shifting from a ratio of 5-1 taxpayers to 2-1 in about 20 years. What happen then?

Shoog

Though I agree with you that work is expensive to do in Ireland and in many cases its simply not cost effective to actually go to work, I have observed that there is no shortage of massive modern houses out in the country of Ireland - so work is obviously lucrative enough for some and Ireland is a rich country overall.

What I see is people showing off with their massive houses and overstretching themselves to the point where they easily run into troubles with paying for the dream. The crazy thing for me is that often these are late middle age couples who will soon need to downsize when their children stop coming home on a regular basis. A looming crisis for the country is a shortage of small appropriately sized properties for retiring couples/singles to move into and then the tracks of mega houses which will be left stranded as the young can neither afford or want to buy them. As it is I can see us returning to the "good old days" where the elderly couple can only afford to heat the kitchen and the rest of the house goes unused.

Crazy situation.

riddles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996471#Comment_117996471

https://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/ireland/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995066#Comment_117995066

The politician bill is large for the number of politician but small out of the total government spending.. Quangos and charities that are mostly funded by government largesse are loosing billions. If these were abolished, one would see lots of nice middle class people unemployed but probably no great difference to the service users!

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996512#Comment_117996512

Its certainly not that simple, those charities and quangos do essential public services which if not carried out by them would likely need to be done by Government at considerably higher cost.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996451#Comment_117996451

if ireland was so terrible our population would be decreasing, it’s not. It’s increasing.

We have some issues but completely overblown by some media sources and some political parties.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996533#Comment_117996533

at massively overinflated prices. for example i remember when charities would actually publish an annual report where you divide the number of people helped into their total expenditure.. a big national homeless charity was spending c 18,000euro per annum per person helped,, as per their report.. over the last 3 years their annual reports figures presented makes it impossible to calculate this average

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996717#Comment_117996717

... but my point is still valid, the Government would have to take on those functions and I guarantee that they would cost far more if they were run by government. Did you not wonder why governments pay the charities ?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996737#Comment_117996737

So they dont get held resposible later.. and that 18000 , from their reports are c 75 % government funded.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996752#Comment_117996752

Not an answer to my question really. Do you think it would be cheaper if the Government did what charities do ?

Clever fails when it doesn't answer the point.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996179#Comment_117996179

It has been established for over a hundred years that property taxes are superior taxes.

Obviously nobody like paying any tax.

We want to design a tax system with the least negative side effects.

Property taxes are superior than income taxes, for several reasons.

That is why they have been implemented all around the world.

Think about it - dozens and dozens of countries have property taxes, for decades and decades, so obviously they are a sensible tax.

Geuze

Very few people have problems paying the LPT.

By definition, it is only paid by house owners.

These same house owners have annual bills for maintenance, repairs, utilities, which are way higher than the LPT.

In the past two years I have spent maybe 10,000 on the house.

I have paid 800-900 LPT.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996832#Comment_117996832

They are not. because even if you are earning very little and you own your house, you are f*cked and in some places they take the house from you. Even though you supposedly own it. You are merely renting from the government at some low rate that they can add a few zeros after if they feel like it in the budget

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993938#Comment_117993938

You think that's why rates were abolished?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997012#Comment_117997012

Yes, you own your own house, thus making you vastly more wealthy then those working and renting. Why should they pay more?

Madeoface

Can we get back to bitchin about the two greedy aul codgers with the property empire that had the loony left supporting them, SF never letting hard facts get in the way of outrage again..

I would like to have seen these particularly greedy pigs jailed but in the end they must have sold one of their 30 properties to pay back what they owed.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997012#Comment_117997012

I am interested in the way some people are so confident about their beliefs, even though the evidence is overwhelmingly against them.

In dozens of countries, over decades and decades, Govts of various types have agreed that property taxes are sensible, and better than alternative taxes.

The vast majority of economists agree with this (I'd say 99% of them).

Loads of writers / thinkers / politicians agree with this.

I wish I had the confidence to ignore all the decades of evidence and analysis.

I will try to get the Mirrlees report for you later.

VinLieger

Don't forget that a property tax outside of Ireland is considered part of a left wing/socialist agenda and has massive support from the respective left wing and socialist parties in countries it is applied. It is only Ireland where our so called socialists are against the exact same system.

Shoog

If you have built such a massive unmanagable house that you cannot pay the LPT on it - then I think your greed exceeded your ability at some point in your history.

Triangle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994466#Comment_117994466

Eotr, you have a polarised viewpoint on property tax. As mentioned before its a very efficient way of collecting tax and the rich cant avoid it.

Instead of abolishing it, your time would be better spent working on increasing income for lower income families. Especially by ways where the rich can avoid taxes

Edit: i do think the higher bands need increased though. Anything over a million should cost more than taxing a RX8 annually.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990568#Comment_117990568

Unfortunately that's the same attitude our government takes to use of our tax. Every major project is a blank cheque to BAM et al.

We could have fixed the water network 3 times over (no hyperbole), with the money wasted on Irish Water.

Given how we've seen the Brits squander billions on Tory donors, during pandemic, we were also right to question Siteserve's connection to FG.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999899#Comment_117999899

Not sure thats true with regard to Irish Water, I worked in the water industry and I can tell you that it was only the introduction of Irish water which made local councils upgrade their plant and address their leak problem. Frankly the local councils were incapable of getting their act together without external intervention from Irish Water. There were areas of Roscommon which had been on permanent boil notices for 2-3 years before Irish Water provided the finance and the incentive to upgrade their treatment plant. Irish Water have seen network loses drop by up to 1/2 in some areas.

It was chronic underfunding and a poor council culture which lefty us with such a dysfunctional water system - and Irish Water was the appropriate cure. Its just a shame that with the abolition of charges they have been hobbled.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999916#Comment_117999916

I've no issue with central control, I would encourage it for a national network.

Everything other than that was botched and wasteful. The cost of installing the failed meters alone would have paid for the infrastructure repair on the network, preventing leaks which would have actually conserved water. Stopping those leaks would have saved more water than metering ever would.

I'm pro-charges BTW. I think it should have been done based on the same style of the LPT. Local regions given a flat (but variable) charge, with it flexing each year based on usage measured at the local provider. That way your areas with private swimming pools would still pay more than your 3 bed semi-d.

Also, our government never guaranteed that the funds made would be ring fenced for water.

Water, LPT, USC, and other charges were only ever implemented to allow government to fund the bailout from central tax.

It's a major pity as we've no hope of a proper water charge now

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999953#Comment_117999953

Usage charges are infinitely more appropriate than any type of flat rate charging system. They cut demand by 50% on average and they encourage conservation. Water Meters were the correct way to charge for water and the wastage only came when the implementation of the water charges was botched by an incompetent government. Here's my own personal example, I have 16 thousand liters of water tanks for rainwater and I insisted on having a water meter be installed so that I would gain the advantages of my own water conservation efforts. I ask you, where is the incentive for anyone to conserve water and collect rainwater in the present system. Every liter that I provide of my own supply is a saving to you the other users of the system - but I see zero benefit and am infact worse off for providing my own supply.

Can you not see that having no price on water actually encourages people to waste water by installing things like power showers, power washers, lawn sprinklers, swimming pools etc. If you want luxury water wasting life style features you should have to pay the full price for using them.

The only concession I would offer on usage charging is those people who have essential water usage above the normal should receive an automatic rebate of part of their charge.

It was a disaster abolishing water charges, an act of political cowardise and neck saving from the same government who botched their introduction. It will hobble all future governments ability to maintain a safe effective water supply network.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995037#Comment_117995037

Cut foreign aid to the bone. Give Childrens Allowance as a tax break after child 2. Cut dole payments. Garnish dole payments for unpaid rent. Cut payments to NGOs. Hundreds of millions saved there.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990268#Comment_117990268

Great theory, if it wasn't for my memory that all these things were provided prior to there being an LPT. What USC, LPT and surcharges an all forms of insurance, and so forth, are actually doing is part funding a pay increase for the second most highly paid civil service in the EU.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993938#Comment_117993938

Property tax isn't unaffordable. For a €500,000 house in Dublin, it is around €9 a week. Less than a pack of cigarettes.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990571#Comment_117990571

The privatisation of our water service is a particular sticking point for me. The government spent billions on a tendering process instead of investing that directly into the infrastructure. I don't mind the idea of paying for water provided the service is set up and run in a transparent way. It's a limited resource, and one that's becoming more scarce and requires huge investment, the money has to come from somewhere.

The way it was handled was awful and detrimental to the state, total waste of cash and people should be getting hung out to dry for it.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003628#Comment_118003628

"Billions" on tendering- seriously. Can you back that up with anything whatsoever.

Water services HAVE NOT been privatised. It is semi-state just like many critical services such as ESB Networks and Bord gais. But some people believe the rubbish spouted by the looney leftist politicians such as paul murphy.

Prior to Irish Water, water services were run by county councils, many of whom had very limited experience of running a high standard water service. Some were so incompetent that they put waste water treatment plants next to water purification plants (Roscommon & Galway) which mean boil water notices for many years.

Councils still have oversight and this is still a problem, but at least the infrastructure is now led by a team that would match most international reams and not some local council operative.

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003885#Comment_118003885

Aside from the hyperbole "looney leftist" or whatever other bingo phrase you want, yes, a quick google will show massive amounts of money pumped into Irish Water. I may be wrong in the numbers purely for the tendering process, but setting up Irish Water was handled badly and at a cost of ten times the original estimate.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20467510.html

"“We were told the total set-up costs of consultants would be less than €20m,” said Mr O’Dowd. “That’s the truth. And what happened? It was over €200m. They went crazy with consultants, they spent money left, right, and centre"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-water-contracts-never-went-to-tender-29913224.html

Four major contracts relating to Irish Water were never put to public tender, possibly costing the state a lot more than was needed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/how-much-will-it-cost-to-set-up-irish-water-1921250-Feb2015/

An article from 2015, so who knows that the amount is at this point. "The semi-state body received a subvention of €439 million in 2014 and is expected to receive €399 million and €479 million in 2015 and 2016 respectively." We're looking at close to 3 Billion Euro by the end of 2016, that was 5 years ago.

It may be considered semi-state like ESB or Bord Gais, but so far it seems to be operating with a lot less direction or budget control than those bodies (despite Bord Gais being the parent company). Having dealt with ESB on many occasions through work I can safely say it is a reliable body that I would believe to be operating above board. The same cannot be said of Irish Water.

I agree that relying on County Councils to maintain the water system is not sustainable and in fact detrimental overall, the format in which Irish Water is allowed to exist is also detrimental and the amount of money pumped into it could certainly have been better used.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999899#Comment_117999899

Nonsense, the only way of fixing our water network is to ensure that the water service has its own ring-fenced funding, which can only be done through a system of water charges based on usage, the standard way to do this all across Europe.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003392#Comment_118003392

Since the introduction of property tax you have seen the investments in the local areas, playground etc. If this tax gets removed you will suddenly see all of this dry up as the councils will be given a pittance again. You will end up paying the tax anyway somewhere else but you won't see the benefits that most are seeing now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004092#Comment_118004092

They refused to ring fence that money. One of my primary issues with it.

silver2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004067#Comment_118004067

Ah believing the words of a politician and taking it as the absolute truth. Try getting the certified figures (all available) rather than taking some publicity hungry politician jumping on a band wagon.

The total set-up costs spent on "consultants" were circa €70m . However this €70m included all the software and hardware and training of high level staff by proper experts in the field.

Yes, money was wasted on billing systems and a lot wasted because the unions & some councils would not wake up to the crumbling infrastructure and wanted to keep it archaic system as it was.

But because it was a handy subject to create headlines, journalist and politicians and every anti whatever group you can think of made wild assertions - funny, they never backed the assertions up.

Some money was wasted, but no-where near what many would make you believe

Shoog

When you consider that nearly every piece of water infrastructure in the country needed upgrading to meet legal standards, and that a relatively small plants upgrade costs will be at least four million, it's not difficult to see where figures of billions come in

.

Also if you don't spend sufficient on setup costs you end up with a body not fit for purpose which ultimately ends up costing more, with the hse been a classic example of what happens when you don't get your structures right up front.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003443#Comment_118003443

still unafordable to many.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003628#Comment_118003628

that is what general taxation is for, it is what we were using to pay for water, unless you were on a small private scheme or handle your own.

yes any privatization would have to be stopped as it would be detrimental to the lot and we do not wish to end up like the UK with out of control water bills.

agreed about the set up of IW and all else, ridiculous that people aren't being fired over the bad handling of that.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004465#Comment_118004465

No it's not.

Irish people should be happy to invest in county council to provide local amenities, You have provided nothing to back up claims people cannot afford LPT.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004536#Comment_118004536

it is to many.

it should be obvious that it is, because it's affordable to you and me does not mean it is to others.

i am happy to pay for those services from my income tax, however whether i want county councils or not i am unsure on that question given we are a tiny country and don't need multiple layers of government really.

i suppose the good news is that county councils have little power anyway.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004146#Comment_118004146

In my village, the CC spent god knows how much tearing up perfectly good concrete footpaths and replacing them with pavers. You want to pay for that nonsense, fine, you do so, but don't co-opt me into paying for your sense of aesthetics. I could give so many examples of unnecessary local 'enhancemnts' that weren't, it makes me weep.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004607#Comment_118004607

Have you asked anyone why they are doing it? with health & safety it might be a concern and hence why they are stripping it. It might not be but all of the information will be available from the county council or your local coucillor will be able to tell you all about it

This would of all been discussed in the county council and would have went to tender. The public get access to everything so you can reject all of these spends.