Can employer recover education fees?

rob w

Hi,

My employer paid for college fees for a course I completed 2 years ago.

At the time, I signed a poorly worded agreement, consisting of 3 bullet points with my employer which is worded exactly as below;

I hereby undertake:

(1) To remain in the employment of X for a minimum period of three years from date of graduation

(2) in the event of my leaving the employment of X, within the said three years

(3) to fully reimburse the fees to X if I (i) do not complete the full course of studies or (ii) fail to pass the overall course of studies to refund X all costs (other than costs of time off) incurred by X in permitting me to pursue the course of studies

[End]

So, if I leave within three years of graduating from the course, can my employer legally use this agreement to force me to fully reimburse fees for the course?

ohnonotgmail

did you complete the course of study? My reading of it is as stated is that reimbursement is only due if you leave within three years AND you fail to complete the course of studies. Is that what the contract says verbatim? It seems badly drafted if the intention is ensure you stay for 3 years after graduation.

.42.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983298#Comment_117983298

I dont see point to linking to point 3.

L1011

That also reads to me as you repay if you (fail or drop out) and leave within three years. So that passing and leaving is OK; failing/dropping out and staying is OK.

I suspect they wanted it to mean repay if you fail or drop out or leave within three years; paying back in any one situation.

If this is for any significant sum, talk to a real lawyer.

rob w

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, sorry. I completed the course successfully. That's my reading of it too, but I'm no legal expert, so don't know whether it's worth the paper it's written on or not!

That is the wording of the agreement verbatim. There is also a short preamble, which just names the two parties (Employer and I) stating that I am requesting the following from employer;

"support/sponsorship consisting of refund or payment of fees, book or other relevant allowances and time off to study and attend lectures"

el Fenomeno

The agreement is terribly worded.

Out of interest, was there any in-person discussion about it? Were you aware their intention was that you repay it if you leave within 3 years even if you passed?

rob w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983334#Comment_117983334

I've tried the FLAC today, but they are closed for the day now. I will get real advice, just thought I'd get some input here.

rob w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983361#Comment_117983361

It is very confusing, at the time I signed it, I didn't read in as much detail.

No in person discussions on it at all, just an email sent to me asking me to sign and return by a given date.

dobman88

That looks fairly standard to me.

They pay your fees. You pass the course and must work for them for a minimum of 3 years after graduating.

They "get their moneys worth" for want of a better phrase by you working for 3 years after graduating.

If you want to leave before the 3 years is up, just pay them back. All fairly standard stuff I'd have thought. They wont come looking for the fees if you leave after 3 years, only if you leave before.

el Fenomeno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983396#Comment_117983396

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but if that was your assumption at the time then why question it now?

If you leave, they either ask for their fees back which you assumed would happen anyway, or they don't ask and you can just carry on with your new job?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983450#Comment_117983450

that is normally how it works but it is not how the agreement was written.

CreadanLady

If they want to come after you for the fees if you break that agreement, then let them off. Even if they do bring it to court and even if they secure a judgement against you, then good luck to them collecting the judgement from you if you just don't pay.

You see this all the time, courts making orders for compensation for such and such in civil cases. Many plaintiffs never see a penny of it. You cannot get blood from a stone.

It all depends on you being brass necked enough to just refuse and hold out. You can get away with nearly anything in this country if you are brazen enough.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983457#Comment_117983457

that is what they assumed the employer would do. The employer never said what their intentions were, they just sent an agreement to be signed. Looking at the agreement it is not what the OP assumed. what the employer did trumps any assumptions made by the OP.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983450#Comment_117983450

That's not what the clause states though. If he completed and passed the course then he is under no obligation to repay the course fees whether he leaves within 3 years or not.

FishOnABike

Is the layout of paragraph 3 you quoted exactly as it was in the original document? It could be very significant to the interpretation of the agreement.

If it involves a significant sum I would get professional legal advice. If you are moving jobs would your new employer consider paying all or part of the cost?

As it is worded and laid out (on mobile at least) it could be open to interpretation. Is it worth burning bridges over?

rob w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983749#Comment_117983749

That is the exact wording of the document.

New employer only willing to contribute a portion of cost, if it is to be recouped at all. Significant sum is involved, so I want to know where I stand. I am engaging a legal professional also, waiting to hear back from them.

I don't want to burn bridges, but I just want to know where I stand!

Rket4000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983500#Comment_117983500

This is true, but a judgment against you will be a matter of public record and could impact you if you want to borrow money or in some cases you may not be able to get some jobs in the future.

28064212

Poorly worded, but I'd be surprised if it had any significant impact. Forget about points 2 and 3 - you still broke the contract by breaking point 1. Even if there's no explicit statement of reimbursement in that clause, the employer can still sue for breach of contract. I suspect if it actually went to court, a judge would take a practical viewpoint and take into account things like actual length of service (if you're leaving after a week, the result would be very different to 2 years and 51 weeks).

Of course, this all an amateur take, listen to your legal professional

Blazer

You signed a contract and then broke it on the first point.

This is standard across the industry really. The company pays for your course and you get a new qualification out of it and they get 3 years of your service.

My employer does this as well and its across a load of companies.

Your new employer likely won't be forking out for any courses you want to take over the next few years.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984209#Comment_117984209

Forget about points 2 and 3 - you still broke the contract by breaking point 1.

you can't read it in isolation like that and if you do there is no remedy specified for breaking part 1. the only remedy is mentioned for breaking part 3.

Even if there's no explicit statement of reimbursement in that clause, the employer can still sue for breach of contract. 

breaching what exactly? do you expect their contract to specify that leaving is a breach of contract?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984232#Comment_117984232

There is no remedy specified for breaching part 1. It certainly does not specify that they need to reimburse for leaving before 3 years.

dotsman

Yeah, the above agreement is pretty standard in any employer - just badly composed in this scenario. You can try the legal route to try and get out paying what you owe due to the loophole of the badly worded agreement, but would likely be very expensive and tremendous hassle. But everyone knows what the agreement was and that you broke it.

Likewise, not sure what profession you are in, but your name will be dirt amongst at least a few prospective employers in your future, so you need to see if it is worth that. Similarly, your new employer may get wind of it and not be happy at all.

uberwolf

costs incurred should be net, not gross. As the employer will have received relief on the fees paid then they should not profit on any 'refund' that you do end up giving them

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984273#Comment_117984273

you're right, everybody knows what the agreement was, the text of it is in the first post. and the agreement is very clear.

starbaby2003

I broke mine and it was taken from my last paycheque. It wasn’t the full amount I think it reduced each year. My new employment reimbursed me though. This might be an option for you ?

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984292#Comment_117984292

Any refund they receive from the employee will be taxable, so the full amount would need to be received for the tax position to be neutral.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984254#Comment_117984254

What? The OP signed a contract that said "I hereby undertake to remain in the employment of X for a minimum period of three years from date of graduation". They didn't stick to those terms. That's literally a breach of contract. Just because there is no specific remedy mentioned doesn't mean a breach hasn't occurred.

There's still plenty of defences available to the OP, they could argue that the terms are unfair, or that it was signed under coercion (presumably they wouldn't have got the position if they didn't sign), or that refunding the full fees isn't a proportional punishment, but a breach of contract has almost certainly occurred

rob w

Just to be clear, I haven't breached any contract. I am still in employment in this role.

I am just asking the question as I am wondering how enforceable this is, if I did move onto a new employer in the next 12 months. Its a tricky question to ask directly to employer before resigning as it will open can of worms whether I follow through on it or not.

Somebody mentioned in a post there about terms being 'unfair', I was wondering about that too.

I know other employers might use a sliding scale for reimbursement in these cases and after 2 years I may be able to argue that 1/3 of the fees is a 'fair' reimbursement......but then again, I did sign that agreement......but then again its not very clear!!

FishOnABike

There's also the question of what it might cost you in legal fees if your employer sued for the cost of the course fees they have paid.

It might cost you as much in legal fees to defend a claim by your employer as you might save by avoiding reimbursing them for your course fees.

You might have a chance to gain financially on a legal technicality but at the cost of your reputation.

PhilOssophy

OP - I don't know what your industry is or your age but if I've learned one thing in this country, its that professional circles are TINY. Everybody knows everybody.

I have come across the same people in 3 separate jobs, people move around and reputation/network is everything. People talk. The first thing a potential employer will do is try see who knows you and find out what they can about you. If you burn bridges over a few thousand quid, don't think it won't have serious capacity to bite you on the ass in the future.

Whether or not you legally have a case is a moot point - unless it is a huge sum of money I'd say either wait the 3 years (which presumably isn't that far away) or pay the debt. Never burn a bridge as they say.

Just my thoughts, others might feel differently.

drogon.

I know a guy who left few years ago and was in the same position in a company that he worked with. Oddly his HR manager never brought this up when he was leaving, and just assumed they forgot about it (it was a large MNC)

Well when he got his final pay check they did take the money owned from him, which was a shock to him. But he knew he had to pay it when he signed up for the course. One plus side was it was taken before tax, so it ended up working to his favour.