78% of all new cars sold in Norway are pure electric

unkel

We're obviously a few years behind but even in Ireland everybody now knows it's coming soon, literally everyone I talk to say that they will have an EV for their next car or the one after that

NIMAN

Not pure EV though I'd guess.

Majority will be hybrids. Most people I speak to aren't ready for full ev yet.

If say it'll be a decade before 78% of new cars will be full ev in Ireland.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980929#Comment_117980929

Id agree - theres still a lot of range anxiety out there - well the people I speak to in our dealership anyway.

Most feel hybrid will be their next rather than pure EV.

I do however feel that the government need to do more to encourage pure EV ownership - better grants etc...but sure now theyre talking about reducing grants for EV - typical of this country really.

Atlantic Dawn

What did they do with all their old ICE cars?

The sales in ev in Norway was precipitated by substantial financial incentives. Those are being withdrawn soon by by now it's too late to go back. IC is soon to be banned.

Heard a report on it last week

slave1

People may SAY their next car is electric but a visit to this forum quickly points out the not fit for purpose public charging infrastructure, for many that will prevent an EV purchase

embraer170

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117980929#Comment_117980929

Actually no, the 75+% is pure electric. If you include plug in hybrids, the figure is closer to 85-90%!

https://www.electrive.com/2021/09/02/norway-marks-11811-new-ev-registrations-in-august/

With most Irish people living in houses with their own driveways, it is probably easier for us to go electric than people in many other European countries. The Irish for the most part also do less very long distance than mainland Europeans.

NIMAN

I meant the majority in Ireland will be hybrids, in response to Unkels comment.

I wasn't chatting about Norway's sales figures.

I think a boatload of Tesla 3 and Y came in from China and that distorts the figures somewhat but EVs are well beyond the tipping point now.

IMO the subsidies aren't really that helpful. All they're doing is increasing margin for the manufacturers. Keeping the price of EVs up allows them to keep petrol/diesels higher as well. There's no reason for EVs to cost what they do as it is.

Buddy Bubs

Next car for me PHEV, after that we will see. Either 530 bmw or audi a6. I'll still do most of motoring Monday to Friday electric. And if it dips into the petrol engine, so be it.

It's not range anxiety at all with me, it's the choice of electric car available doesn't appeal to me. Nothing out there to compare to a big comfy saloon like the ones I mentioned above. Will change in time of course.

If the government make them undesirable to drive from taxation point of view, that's when the real value will kick in. Might even pick up a cracker of a 3 litre diesel at bargain basement cost then too.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211838/78-of-all-new-cars-sold-in-norway-are-pure-electric

Here is Ireland. Engine types across the years since 2007. New cars only

few yeasr? I'd say more than 5. Considering both HEVs and PHEVs are on upward trend and treated equal from taxation point of view with BEVs, imminent removal of most incentives, there will be very little push to go "full electric". Maybe the fuel price. Just passed by Ballymun Circke K and saw petrol @ 1.61&1.69/l. That's 100km for someone on night tariff.

Interesting to see how the recession and taxation flipped the fuel mix in 2008- 2011. Unfortunately there is so much FUD. Like to 1.2bn for 100k EVs vehiculated in media. It first appeared on a SEAI report, with the note that the figures were calculated based on 2019 incentives which now changed. Figures which were wrong anyway. All media outlets use this figure as what gov is using to fund the "green cars". When motor tax changed in 2008, there was a drop for a TDI Passat from 600+ to about 200 a year. Who complained? The EV is taxed @120 which is just less that a 100 quid from a Diesel. Everyone shouts about "loss in revenue". Really? This coupled with the hesitant policies would stall the momentum and if nothing changes 40% is max we can ever dream to. I want to be proven wrong.

Mickeroo

Is the Irish Times article the reason why people think they are going too remove the incentives on EVs? Or has there been anything concrete?

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982421#Comment_117982421

The removal on incentives is already happening. First was reduction of grants for businesses, then complete removal. The VRT rebate was capped for 40k+ cars then drops and removed completely @50k. Grant was removed from 60k+. BIK is due to expire at end of 2022. (rumor has it it may be extended but right know it is in the law) . The IT article is based on some report of some governmental task force which contradicts another governmental task force which suggest more needs to be done. The gov set 900k+ plug-in cars by 2030. There is no clear cut way of how to achieve that. And nobody believes that it can be reached.

Busman Paddy Lasty

"Like to 1.2bn for 100k EVs vehiculated in media. It first appeared on a SEAI report, with the note that the figures were calculated based on 2019 incentives which now changed. Figures which were wrong anyway. All media outlets use this figure as what gov is using to fund the "green cars". "

Those articles were a disgrace and shows up the state of the media. The Taycan buyer was effectively getting a rebate of their own money being robbed through VRT. VRT which covered the SEAI grant by a long shot.

0% VRT for cars with 0g CO2 would be a proper incentive without the use of grants that can be twisted by the media into a narrative of da gubberment buying Taycans for the illuminati.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982421#Comment_117982421

2 government papers have been produced this year that give opposing viewpoints.

The first one is from the department of Finance and is called "Climate Action and Tax Paper Tax Strategy Group – 21/09". Sorry I can't post the link directly but on page 35 it recommends consideration be given to capping VRT relief on vehicles upto 30k.

The other paper is from the department of Transport and is called "Electric Vehicle Policy Pathway Working Group Report 2021" it recommends continuing funding for VRT relief upto the end of 2022, funding permitting!

There seems to be an expectation from some car dealers that the VRT relief will be reduced.

Kramer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982486#Comment_117982486

Are we still talking about targets?

How about these two?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20078627.html

Any advance on 250?

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/2020-target-for-350-000-electric-cars-1.755999

350!

Any advance on 350?

1,000,000? Is that you Eamon?

OK, 1,000,000 it is............

1,000,000 shiny new electric cars, parked outside the 400,000 shiny new houses you're gonna build, alongside that shiny, new & cheap airport rail link, the one near the new children's hospital.........

Fairytale land 🙄.

Lantus

Hybrid and phev are not the way to go. Laser discs of the car world. Upcoming regulation will render these engine types no better than ice and some manufacturers like skoda have already said they won't develop any more (and likely are planning phasing out what they have) they know which way the wind is blowing.

Range is an issue for an ever smaller % of people so fewer blockers. Price and availability are biggest challenges. The vast majority couldn't afford to switch as the proliferation of 2nd hand cars is still too low.

A tesla model 3 sr+ costs 32K in the USA, in Ireland almost 49K, the LR+ 43,209 Euro's. in Ireland 58.9K

That's a lot of tax, easy money for the Government, is it really a bad idea to reduce this tax on electrics ?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986741#Comment_117986741

The base Model 3 is $42k in the USA, which is €36k

Unfortunately, because Ireland is part of the EU, there is no way of not applying 10% import duty (as the car comes from outside of the EU) and VAT (Ireland set that to 23%) over the cost of the car incl import duty and shipping costs. Unless we do our own moronic Irexit 🤣

So if Tesla set the same base price for here, even with zero VRT (the only choice this country has apart from lowering the general VAT rates), the car would cost ((€36k + 10%) + €1k shipping and insurance cost) * 123% = €50k

So in fact we are subsidising the car (apart from the taxes we have to apply)!

Sabre Man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986741#Comment_117986741

Teslas will hopefully get cheaper in Europe once Giga Berlin opens.

SupplyandDemandZone

I suppose i'll be forced to buy one but i'll be holding out as long as possible. Electric cars are completely out of most working class peoples price range unfortunately right now.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987443#Comment_117987443

They will charge what the market will bear just like Porsche on any Macan or any other manufacturer with a high margin product.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987493#Comment_117987493

Not that nonsense again. 5 years ago I bought a brand new family size EV for the same price as Skoda Octavia diesel. A budget family car. Only recently I bought another family size EV second hand for a touch over €2k. This car costs less to own than a banger petrol or diesel car that someone gives you for free. Unaffordable my arse.

I always find Norway a strange example, given it’s the largest exporter of gas and oil in Europe other than Russia, but I suppose a high uptake of EVs will offset their consciences even if it’s a drop in the ocean of CO2 they’re ultimately responsible for producing.

For some strange reason fossil fuel energy exports aren’t included in countries’ carbon emissions, like everything else.

unkel

Why would exports of fuel be included in a country's emissions? Where it eventually is burnt is where the emissions are released, so that's where they are included.

SupplyandDemandZone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987564#Comment_117987564

Okay no need to be rude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987593#Comment_117987593

Why include exports of anything else in emissions then? Your Chinese electronics are ultimately used by you, not someone on China? Your Irish butter is being consumed by some hipster in NY, and so on … emission costs for production of those fall heavily on the producer and exporter.

The producing country benefits enormously from those emissions, but washes its hands of them when it comes to oil, gas etc anyway.

I just find it an odd system.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987639#Comment_117987639

Apologies, did not mean to be rude. But you might appreciate we do get sick of these "pub talk" arguments that are completely false but keep being regurgitated by a large number of people as "the truth". This holds back the uptake of EVs significantly and totally unnecessarily. Both your wallet and the planet are losing out here.

I would say the biggest likely dampener to uptake this year will be the coverage of potential issues with electricity supply here. I know two people who’ve gone with hybrids instead of EV because of uncertainty around warnings of possible power issues by Eirgrid

We’ve talked the talk with EVs and then put in inadequate charging infrastructure and now we’ve potential power issues for the next few years.

The offshore wind projects here for example have been far too slow compared to say Denmark or the U.K.

Cdemess

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987696#Comment_117987696

I can’t buy one, as I live in an area with on street parking only.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987725#Comment_117987725

That's an issue, there's no denying it. I do not recommend owning an EV in Ireland if you can't charge it at home or at work. That said, the majority of EV buyers in the likes of Norway or the Netherlands do not have their own driveway either and charging over there is not a problem. I'm the first to say that public charging in Ireland is very far behind those countries though. And it largely being under control of a tax payer funded, uninterested semi-state company doesn't help either

I wonder sometimes if the lack of enthusiasm from the ESB could also be down to forecasts of tight supplies?

Also compared to NL, densities in rural Ireland are extremely low.

National population density:

508 per Km2 - NL

72 per Km2 - IRL and it goes as low as 20/km2 in counties like Leitrim.

So on average there's more than 7 times more people per square km in somewhere like the Netherlands.

However, the lack of charging in Irish urban areas is still inexcusable.

Terrace housing could be solved easily enough with a standardised, attractive looking charging pole design and permits to run cables under footpaths. Or, some kind of arrangement where charger sockets could be installed on existing lampposts somehow.

Or, simpler still, you can install a slot in pavements with a cover, which allows someone to pass a charging cable quite easily.

In NL they've stuff like https://chargearm.com

I've no doubt we'd fine 1,000,001 ways why any of these solutions are technically or legally impossible here though. We don't really do practically, just litigiousness.

Cdemess

Sadly, the chargearm wouldn’t work over here - the council would require it to luminous colours and flashing lights at night so that those unfortunate 9 foot children don’t get whiplash and try and sue the owner.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987707#Comment_117987707

How will the petrol pumps work if there's no electricity?

If there are blackouts it is most likely to be around peak demand rather than off peak when most people charge their cars.

elperello

Most second hand buyers cant buy an EV simply because the supply is not there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117990818#Comment_117990818

It's still likely to put people off though.

josip

Norwegians are a bunch of hypocrites.

Not shy at all about saying "look what a progressive, EV promoting country we are", and only being able to afford it because of all the oil and gas they sell to the rest of us.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991082#Comment_117991082

What's hypocritical about that? Sounds like you are a bit jealous if I'm honest. They got lucky with their natural resources. Fair play to them.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992090#Comment_117992090

Jealous of their wealth yes. Not jealous of Norway/Norwegians and I've lived in Oslo for 6 months.

The hypocritical bit is being obviously aware of the damage being done to the climate and domestically switching to EV big time and divesting fossil fuel companies from their investment fund.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/08/norways-1tn-wealth-fund-to-divest-from-oil-and-gas-exploration

But yet keeping production going on their oil and gas fields via Statoil/Equinor and not taking any financial hit themselves. If you've ever met a Norwegian, you'll know they love the feel of money.

unkel

Norway was with Ireland about the poorest country in Europe 50 years ago until they struck gold. Fair play to them. If you found a pot of gold, would you give it away for free? Of course you wouldn't. You'd make sure you and your children and the rest of the people around you would benefit to the max from it.

What I like about Norway is that the politics seem to be big into long term planning and not quick wins on the short term. It's a big difference from say Saudi Arabian approach. The vast oil fund is one example of that and national projects can be financed from the dividents of it. When you travel in Norway everything just works but nothing seems particularly extravagant.

unkel

When we had it good in the late 90s and 00s and there was surplus money, it was mostly just given away to higher public service wages by Santi Berti. Now we have nothing to show for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993219#Comment_117993219

Don't forget the consultants, unkel. The lack of accountability seems to be the key real reasons why all the public projects always end up costing more and delivering less. Private projects like the national motorway network got built double quick here which was impressive really. Compare this to metro North, a project that has been in talks since at least the 90's. The completion of if aways appears to be about 8-12 years in the future.

Creadit where the credit is due: The Covid-19 vaccination program has been surprisingly effective.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987707#Comment_117987707

Makes no sense, peak power disruption would likely impact you in the garage getting petrol on the way to/from work more than at 3am when your EV would be charging.

PHEV the worst of both worlds, plug in twice a day instead of twice a week. Charges slowly, lug a battery around on long trips reducing fuel efficiency or lug an engine around reducing range. Donysee why they're being encouraged, just a way for car companies to keep selling as always and slowing the transition

slave1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993219#Comment_117993219

We got decent roads, 'tis about it

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996424#Comment_117996424

Indeed. That was almost entirely paid for by the EU though. Cost the Irish taxpayer almost nothing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117992090#Comment_117992090

We have our own Natural resources and our Government gave them away biggest gobshites Irish Government even to this day. No other country would be so stupid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996780#Comment_117996780

You not think we've paid that back ? the thick Irish Government signed a contract with the contractors for the M3 motorway and have to pay millions a year because the road is "under used"

Money is spent so foolishly by our Government, look at all the People who Quit work and get the covid payments without the means to monitor and supervise or all those who went back to their home countries still receiving the payment!

Want to tax the crap out of us! Next weeks budget is going to be fun and no doubt they'll push more people into poverty through higher carbon taxes.