More Unpronounceable/Obscure Irish Names

Morris Garren

The topic of naming people with traditional Gaelic names can be a delicate issue. Lately I have come across two examples where I'm left wondering what is going on with the apparent evolution in obcurantism and the increasing oddity with some of these, especially trying to pronounce them.

Having been a willing participant in 13 years of state sponsored Irish lessons from baby infants to leaving cert, I'm a certified failure in that department. My bad/buachaill dana/ufasach etc etc. But does anybody know how to pronounce 'Cartheach?' I was told it is 'Cora' - which looks absolutely nothing like the Irish spelling, which suggests 'Kar Hock' in my awful pidgin Irish....

Which begs the question, why not just spell it Cora??? Or pronounce it the Irish way? Either fish or fowl, not both. I just don't get this type of thing. It must be a bit painful after a while, especially dealing with questions about your name. And is it a male or female name, or both? Neither? Were the Celts gender-neutral?

But I heard one on the radio lately-- a lady going by the name of 'Keev Shock' phonetically, a name I have never in my life heard of. Is it 'Caoimhseach' 'Chuibhsach' 'Cuibhsioch' or whatnot? I'm probably miles off.

Look, I'm all on for Irish identity, heritage, remembering our gaelic history and all that jazz, but some more hard-core gael-goir types enjoy these 6th century alphabets and linguistics - something I just can't understand. Any day now, I expect a child named 'Sabhieriumheigheadh' to appear in the parish register, probably pronounced "Tom" by those in the know... that's before we even mention 'Keelin' and its one thousand variants of concern...

Strumms

I’ve a cousin called Cora, and weirdly I know another Cora, a rare name indeed it's pronunciation is as it’s written, Cora. The only two Cora’s I’ve known..

i used to go to an art class as a teenager with a fella called Carthage... never knew or heard of another Carthage before or in the 25 years since.

ive another female cousin first cousin called Danica...she was born in the US but lives here. Never encountered another person of that name, though everyone calls her Dani.

Los Lobos

We called our daughter Sadhbh, I know it looks a bit mental but sure it's an Irish name and the best part is she'll be having to spell it to others for the rest of her life, just like me haha

Peregrinus

"Cartheach" doesn't look to me like an authentic Gaelic name; it violates the standard spelling rules. "A" is a broad vowel and "e" is a slender vowel, and you shouldn't have a broad vowel on one side of the -rth- consonant group and a slender vowel on the other; they should both be broad or both be slender.

"Cárthach", sometimes "Carthach", however, is a long-established name, though nowadays not that common. A saint of that name founded an abbey at Lismore; his name was rendered into Latin as "Carthagus", and, later on, from Latin into English as "Carthage". Both the Catholic and Church of Ireland cathedrals at Lismore are called St. Carthage's Cathedral, after Cárthach.

Cárthach is not pronounced "Cora". but something like "Core-hock" wouldn't be a thousand miles off.

maninasia

Get some pride into you stop criticising Irish people for using Irish names.

And the spelling has always been loose in the Irish language. Who cares.

dePeatrick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902133#Comment_117902133

How do you pronounce that?i

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902180#Comment_117902180

Nitpick: Irish spelling is regular and consistent. It's English spelling that's all over the place, and bears little relationship to pronunciation.

English speakers find Irish spellings challenging not because there are no rules or because the rules are loose, but simply because English speakers mostly don't know the rules. They tend to assume that English spelling and pronunciation conventions should hold good for every language throughout the world and, if they don't, it's the fault of the other language.

The Mighty Quinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902181#Comment_117902181

It rhymes with 'hive', so, 'Sive', or 'Syve'

whisky_galore

Giving a kid a made up faux Irish name or naming them after obscure 5th cent saints only scholars have heard of only toughens them up, like a boy called Sue. Hey its that kid with the weird name, let's beat him up.

They'll spend an adulthood of fury, contacting radio stations and newspapers as to why online forms and govt agencies refuse to recognise their names.

Nothing wrong with having an obscure name. It's nice not being one of twenty other 'jacks' or 'amys' in your life.

As for spelling your name? Jees, that's not hard. Take a second 🙄

The Mighty Quinn

I know a girl who spells her name Orfhlaith. That fh... I've never seen anybody else spell it that.

Orla, or Orlaith.. But that fh..

Peregrinus

"Órfhlaith" is legit, though would probably be regarded by most people as old-fashioned or regional.

Bit of background: Irish existed in a number of dialects, three of which survive - Ulster Irish, Munster Irish, Connacht Irish. We mostly think of these as different pronunciations, with some minor differences of vocabulary, but in fact they did have other differences, including some grammatical differences and different spelling conventions.

When Irish began to be used for official purposes in the 1920s, official documents might come out in any dialect of Irish. It was thought that this diversity was a barrier to the more widespread use of Irish, and that a common written form of the language ought to be developed. The result was the caighdeán ("standard"), a set of principles to govern written Irish used in the public service from the 1940s, and widely adopted for teaching Irish in the education system. All of the textbooks you remember from primary school were written using the caighdeán.

One of the principles adopted in the caighdeán was the elimination of silent letters. Lots of languages have silent letters, including English (knight, brought, salmon, sword). They can help in avoiding ambiguity (it's the silent letter that tells us whether an author is referring to jam or jamb, write or rite) and they often encode information that is an aid to understanding (the 'd' in handkerchief is silent, but it tells us that this is a kerchief for your hand). And they are usually a clue to the history or origins, and therefore the meaning, of a word - the 'p' in "psychology" takes us to Psyche, the Greek word for soul or spirit.

Silent letters are particularly troublesome in Irish because letters that are silent in one dialect might not be in another. The decision was taken to simplify spelling in the caighdeán by removing any letters which were silent in all three dialects of Irish. But if a letter is voiced in any dialect of Irish then the caighdeán retains it, even though to speakers of one or both of the other dialects it might be silent.

The 'fh' in "Orfhlaith" is not voiced in any dialect of Irish, so the caighdeán drops it. Why was it ever there? Because the root of "Órfhlaith" is "flaith", a prince or, in this case, princess; "Órfhlaith" means "golden princess".

But the caighdeán has less influence in Ulster, partly because "official" Irish has less traction in Ulster and partly because Ulster Irish is heavily influenced by Scots Gaelic, which has never had a similar reform. So a lot of pre-caighdeán spellings are still found in Ulster. Like Órfhlaith Begley, for example, the current Westminster MP for West Tyrone.

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902357#Comment_117902357

Every day is a skool day... very good post, thanks

Badly Drunk Boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902197#Comment_117902197

Off-topic: Myles na gCopaleen (Brian O'Nolan/Flann O'Brien) used to have fun with that the odd time by writing pieces for his column that looked like Irish and if you pronounced it as Irish, they were actually English sentences. (English, in phonetic Irish.) 😀 I think he did it the other way around too. He was some man for the wordplay!

And a quote from the man "If Irish were to die completely, the standard of English here, both in the spoken and written word, would sink to a level probably as low as that obtaining in England and it would stop there only because it could go no lower.".

donspeekinglesh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117901679#Comment_117901679

I didn't think Danica was that rare. Danica Patrick, the former racing driver, was one of the most famous woman athletes in the world at her peak.

And I would have thought Danica McKellar was well known to people who grew up watching The Wonder Years in the early 90s.

The Mighty Quinn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902357#Comment_117902357

Well that told me. Fair play Peregrinus! I stand very much corrected and schooled.

Thelonious Monk

I have an Irishy name but it's not one that is unusual in the UK etc. these days.

I used to see some unusual ones on dating apps, Caoilfhionn or something, Doireann, Siofra, Aifric, people with these names mostly seem to come from middle class backgrounds. There are zero Irishy names on anyone that I know or know of in the mixed private/social housing estate I live in now, it's funny that only more well off folks give their kids these names.

Gregor Samsa

My 3 kids have Irish names, one being Sadhbh which is probably the most difficult.

I have a cousin who lives in Germany and called one of her children Lasairfhíona (pronounced Lah-sah-reena), which is obscure and unpronounceable in Ireland, let alone Germany. It's a lovely name, though.

And you don’t have the Germans worrying if the Irish or anyone else will be able to pronounce their local names.

El Weirdo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902197#Comment_117902197

Well said. Just because we speak their language, it shouldn't mean that we also have to adopt their ignorant attitude to other languages and cultures.

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903029#Comment_117903029

Does 'Aifric' mean 'Africa? As in the continent. Sweet sounding name actually

One of our olympic medallists was an Aifric. Is it the same as 'Nollaig' meaning 'Christmas' , I assume it is. Wasn't there Bond Girl named Christmas, think she was Christmas Jones or something? Nollaig Ni Jones in Irish maybe....

As far as I know Aifric means pleasant or nice or something.

lots of Aifrics lately

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117904072#Comment_117904072

People who saw the tv show growing up maybe? They're at the baby making age now

youllbemine

Know of a Dáire, not pronounced like Dara/Darragh etc but Die-ra. Similar to laughter as Gaeilge - gáire or Mary - Máire.

Anyone heard of this pronunciation before?

Have heard of another child in the area being pronounced the same way as they liked the above pronunciation.

Badly Drunk Boy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117904591#Comment_117904591

I've never heard that pronunciation before but it sounds a bit like the proper way of saying but with a Nordie accent. Is he from Ulster?

The Mighty Quinn

I know a few Dáire's. It's prounced daw-ra though, not doy-ra

Furze99

You can never make any assumptions with these names until you hear them from the mouth of the person themselves. Máire is a good example - you might assume something like Moy-ra, until the insulted woman tells you no - it's Moi-ya. All to do with regional variation but confusing even for people who were born and lived in Ireland all their lives.

I think regional variation and dialect is great and would put a big black inky mark on the institutional Gaelgeoirs who've tried to standardise and bastardise the language with their official forms.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902181#Comment_117902181

Sive

@Thelonious Monk

@Thelonious Monk I am from rural west of Ireland. All my cousins kids have Irish names nearly Cillian, Aoife, Oisín, Eoin etc along with a Patrick or Mathew maybe. I have plenty of cousins too. Nothing hugely unusual but seems quite common.

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117904598#Comment_117904598

With my thick Nordie accent, having lived both East and West sides of the North and having two relatives with the name, I've never heard Dáire pronounced anything but dah-rah.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117904591#Comment_117904591

I know a woman named Daire, she pronounces it die - ra.

L1011

One of my great-great-can't-remember-offhand-how-many-great grandfathers was called Maolsheachlann.

If I've a son they're getting that as a middle name (:pac: if that still existed)

My own untranslatable Irish firstname is fairly common here but never pronounced right outside Ireland.