F1 2021 Round 14: Monza

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882040#Comment_117882040

I said it 'may' have been why the steward's took the line they did. I'd also say he's well out of T1 and already at the entrance of T2 in the frame I posted. Look at where they are positioned in the frame I posted. That's nowhere near T1.

barryribs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882104#Comment_117882104

Which was a BS penalty, the same as the 3 place penalty Max has been given. Both minimal for racing incidents. Now tell me the difference between what Hamilton did at turn 4/5 on lap one and what Max did at turn one

lolie

Delighted for the Honey badger to finally get another win, hopefully many more to come.

For Bottas credit where it's due he drove brilliantly all weekend. Like a man fighting to keep his drive, only problem is it came the weekend after he lost his drive so it must be bitter sweet.

As for the crash I'm all for Max winning this year but cant see how people think Hamilton is at fault.

It looked like a racing incident and thankfully Hamilton came away uninjured but ultimately it was Max bouncing off the kerb that caused the collision that took them both out of the race so a penalty is justified.

McFly85

Really surprised the stewards decided Max was more at fault, but it is what it is. Fully expect a new Verstappen PU next race, possibly Hamilton too.

Rossi IRL

Is Zak Brown the biggest hype man in the paddock.

On both the radio calls to both drivers all you could hear in the background was Zak whooping and yeahing

He must be great for morale in the team

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882125#Comment_117882125

In Silverstone Lewis had acres of space to his right but still turned his wheel left to try and cut Max off despite being behind him, which we caused a crash!

Today max went in hot, Lewis didn’t give room and max hit the sausys, literally the only place he could go, and bounced into lewis! that’s a big difference!

AMKC

What a race. Delighted for both Mclaren and Daniel Riciarrdo. No one could have seen that coming. As for Hamilton and Max I would say it was a racing incident but thankfully no one hurt and Max still in the lead of the championship. Still hoping he wins the WDC this year.

Valltari Bottas drove good too. Hope he can keep that form up and carry it on into next year.

Costly day and a bad weekend for Alpha Tauri.

barryribs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882207#Comment_117882207

Why would you want to be on the far right of the track when your coming into a right hand corner, maximising the angle of the corner?

You mean he couldn't turn left earlier, exactly like this?

mr_edge_to_you

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882219#Comment_117882219

Could I ask, what happened with the ATs?

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882207#Comment_117882207

I think the stewards looked at Hamilton on turn 4-said Max could have turned onto the gravel and that it was Lewis’ corner.

If that’s their decision, fair enough. I agree with Brundle though. Max earned the space and the gap was there, they were wheel to wheel on contact. For me, Lewis could have left the room and still come out ahead.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882235#Comment_117882235

Lewis cut him off immediately when he exited the pit so max couldn’t move right! At no point in the move could he move right! That ended with him hitting a sausage and bouncing into Lewis! I’m not blaming Lewis for it but Max could literally not do anything to avoid it

flazio

Rewatching on C4 and there's an annoying 2 second delay between pictures and sound.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882088#Comment_117882088

It takes a really twisted and partisan worldview to think people who want to see fair racing are toxic.

barryribs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882258#Comment_117882258

He didn't cut him off at all, he moved over towards the racing line, which is the natural defensive line. Max could have bailed at any point, either by getting out of the corner or going over the kerbs, never got close to even being alongside him, never mind ahead. Go look at his move on Massa in 2017 at the same chicane, its almost a carbon copy of what he did today

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882258#Comment_117882258

About the only thing he could have done to not hit Lewis was take the escape road. Max was going to run wide in T2 even if Lewis left a cars width for him.

Max was slightly more at fault for what was otherwise a racing incident.

I don't know if it will link correctly but there's a fixed-angle shot around 1:33 which makes it very clear that Verstappen was at fault. He just bombs in over the kerbs like he's playing Gran Turismo. Even if there was no contact it was unlikely he would make the corner, and he certainly wouldn't have been able to "leave space" on the exit for Lewis.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/12406259/italian-gp-max-verstappen-handed-three-place-russia-grid-penalty-after-lewis-hamilton-crash

Harika

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882196#Comment_117882196

He turned McLaren around. Ousted Eric boullier, replaced him with Andreas Seidl. Returned to Mercedes engine, got sponsorship onboard.... If you need an example how leadership can turn a failing team around, it's him.

Captain_Crash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882324#Comment_117882324

I absolutely agree, the point I’m making is that once it was apparent Max wasn’t making the corner, it was too late, hitting the sausys was always going to happen. Someone linked pics a few posts ago and you can see it there, when it’s clear the corner wasn’t being made max has zero options! That’s why for me it’s a racing incident, purely because max had nowhere to bail to, he’d already passed the escape road. It’s certainty wasn’t Lewis’ fault if that’s what anyone thinks I’m insinuating!

quokula

As they've been the two incidents that have been pivotal and ultimately may be what decide the championship, it's worth taking an objective and fact based view of the Silverstone and Monza crashes, removing the specifics of who the drivers involved were.

On a superficial level there are some similarities, with the driver in second has been on the inside and the two cars have collided, and in both cases the car in second was deemed at fault by stewards. But that's where the similarities end if you start looking at it objectively.

Was the second car alongside?

Silverstone: No, he only managed to clip the car ahead with his front wheel against the other car's rear

Monza: Yes, it was contact between rear wheel and rear wheel

Did the lead driver leave room?

Silverstone: Yes, the lead car left about 2-3 car widths to the apex, ensuring the second car had tons of room if he drove cleanly and stayed on the racing line

Monza: No, the lead car turned in on top of the second car, leaving less than a car's width between himself and the sausage kerbs, basically guaranteeing a crash

Would the second driver have made the corner without crashing if the lead driver wasn't there?

Silverstone: The telemetry suggests no, the second car carried far more apex speed than any other lap and would not have made the corner if the lead car wasn't there to crash into

Monza: Yes, the second car slowed down appropriately and would have made the corner had the lead car not turned into them

Was it a genuine overtaking chance?

Silverstone: No. While it is possible, albeit very rare, to overtake into copse, it only works if you're already substantially alongside before the turn. Sticking a single wheel in mid-corner has zero chance of working unless the other driver goes off circuit

Monza: Yes, that chicane is one of the main overtaking spots on the circuit, and the second driver had a particularly strong chance given that he was carrying more momentum and had warmed up tyres, versus his opponent who had just come out of the pits

Was it dangerous?

Silverstone: Extremely. It's one of the highest speed corners on the calendar and putting a wheel in there pretty much guarantees the other driver is taking a trip to the hospital.

Monza: Low speed rubber on rubber contact is normally innocuous, though by a complete fluke the cars ended up in a configuration that could have been dangerous without the halo

What did the "perpetrator" gain?

Silverstone: A net 32 points in the race, as the sprint showed he wasn't going to be able to overtake after the first lap. Additionally the destruction of the opponents car guarantees a future engine change penalty, probably leading to another 10-20 net points, and the millions in damage means the opposition car has less budget cap room for developments, which is hard to quantify but it ultimately means the opposition has a slower car with fewer developments for the rest of the year.

Monza: Pretty much nothing. He had been comfortably ahead before a botched pitstop and with warmed up tyres would have had more opportunities to get back ahead later in the lap. The two of them were almost certainly finishing 3rd and 4th, which is a 3 point difference, but it's unclear in what order.

What did the penalty cost?

Silverstone: Nothing. A 10 second penalty with only the Ferraris left for competition was always a guaranteed victory.

Monza: Time will tell. Given that the driver has won every race he hasn't been taken out of since May, it's reasonable to assume he would have won in Sochi. With the grid penalty on a track where overtaking is very difficult, a win is almost out of the question. We're probably looking at a most likely net loss of 14 points if he gets up to 2nd, though with engine penalties etc who knows.

barryribs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882408#Comment_117882408

A fantasy that J R R Tolkien could be proud of.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882236#Comment_117882236

Not really sure put I think Yuki Tsunodo did not even start.

No idea what happened to Pierre Gaslys car but he just retired it I think. Its like neither of them started at all. Must have had engine problems.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882444#Comment_117882444

Well he’s correct when he says one was a genuine overtaking attempt at the other was a desperate attempt to keep up.

There is a narrative being pushed that Verstappen is a reckless/dangerous driver, but I think it’s wide of the mark. He’s aggressive, sure, but he is brilliant at finding and exploiting gaps. He earns space for himself, legally the vast majority of the time, a craft he’s really improved over the last 2 seasons.

I find wheel to wheel to be probably the weakest part of Hamilton’s overall ability. He likes to stick a wheel in from time to time, but to be fair it’s rarely something he needs to worry about!

ctrl-alt-delete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882444#Comment_117882444

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you,

But I'd have picked C.S Lewis

Gaoth Laidir

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882119#Comment_117882119

I've taken a (bad) frame-by-frame video loop of the turning of both drivers. Focus on Max's front right and Lewis' front left wheels and how they're in sync and both turn left at the same time. Max didn't hold the right lock longer than necessary.

https://streamable.com/q0jvsd

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882406#Comment_117882406

If he hit the brakes he could have avoided it but that's not even in Max's vocabulary.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882518#Comment_117882518

But he would have needed to hold it longer than Lewis because he was trying to go round the outside. In all honesty, it's a move Max gets away with more often than not as others usually back off to give him room or their race will be compromised or ended early.

Considering where Lewis is when he does turn in I don't see a whole lot wrong in all honesty.

Harika

Seeing Russell inhelmet camera I wonder why people don't crash more often

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117881935#Comment_117881935

Bottas got a podium by default and made a mess of what should have been a simple overtake of Perez. He deserves zero plaudits for scything through Saubers, Astons and Williams. That is the least he is expected to do. It's the bigger beasts he struggles against.

Zookey123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117882316#Comment_117882316

You have a very distorted view of reality. I wont argue with you anymore since all the points I would make have already been said and even the stewards have made there decision. For you to continue to blame Lewis for this incident even after Christian and Max saying it was a racing incident is insane. Anyways you really should just go watch UFC or something since you prefer fanboying over actually appreciating that this is the most exciting season of F1 in years.

Corben Dallas

It was a racing incident. They are both to blame. Maybe Max slightly more so because the move is very aggressive. The Sausage kerb is there as the limit of making the corner and if u are beyond it u are cutting the corner.

The key to getting lap time (at least in the old days) is have a car that can use all the Monza kerbs and 'muller' the kerbs. ie be super aggressive with the kerbs. Normally u could run your left front tire up to the centre of the sausage and bounce across to the outside exit (flat kerbs) If u take too much kerbs it will bounce your car beyond the exit and u will be wide and lose speed/exit traction. Lewis turned in and if Max didnt back out there was going to be an accident. The fact that Max's rear wheel hit Lewis's rear wheel means they were completely level with each other on exit.