Boosters

We seem to be going in the direction of boosters for the masses. According to this article from today we will need boosters after six months - https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/pfizer-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-protection-wanes-within-six-months-study-finds-1.4655759

On the other hand two days ago we have the WHO saying we should not be giving boosters because -

• wealthy nations stockpiling the vaccine increases the risk that stronger variants will develop in countries with low inoculation rates. 
• not only could the hyper infectious delta variant become “more virulent,” but “more potent variants could also emerge” if the virus gets “the chance to circulate in countries with low vaccination coverage,”
• furthermore, the WHO director called into question whether booster shots are “effective at all,” a comment that comes days after the organization’s chief scientist Soumya Swaminathan said “data today does not indicate that boosters are needed.” Ghebreyesus said boosters should only be doled out to people with weak immune systems. 

Article here - https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/08/23/who-leader-pleads-against-booster-shots-questioning-efficacy-and-highlighting-risk-of-more-potent-variants/?sh=1633c496131b

So should we go ahead against the advice of the WHO or not?

Black Swan

Across the pond the CDC has suggested a booster after 8 months. The Biden administration plans to fund a booster rollout beginning September 2021.

Yeah, boosters have already begun in Israel and looks like the UK soon also. So a small number of countries going against the advice of the WHO so far. But is it the right direction to go in or not? From what I can see the Who have a very strong argument.

Black Swan

The Biden administration has been criticized by WHO for proceeding with planned booster rollout September for the USA. Then again it is planned, and reported to be rolling out that Biden has been distributing over one billion doses worldwide free. Do not know of any other country that comes near to this massive commitment.

At the end of the day harms have been much greater in developed countries were there is significantly more older persons.

Africa who have much deal with many more health threats than the west have been more resiliant?

Developed nations can afford them and it will save many lives in developed nations?

WHO have been utterly useless throughout?

Most have stopped listening to them from spring 2020?

They are not going to get us or the world out of this.

Just ignore them and do the best for your country while also trying to give vaccines were possible.

Increasing production should also be a thing that should be focused on.

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803124#Comment_117803124

Why blame governments and WHO?

Shouldnt the pharmaceutical giants be doing the right thing here and show a bit of moral obligation?

They make the bloody stuff and can dictate as they please

What happened to leave no man behind ? For rich or poorer

Getting a single jab of beautiful protection into everyone’s arm instead of getting 3 jabs into the fat old people in the rich countries ain’t morally right

The silence from them and there beautiful scientists is sickening

Everyman for himself like Woody is suggesting is heartless

NSAman

Don't attack me..... BUT!!!!!

This is turning into a Flu Shot at this stage.

Is this really a vaccine or something like a flu shot that you have to get each year?

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803678#Comment_117803678

Hope you aren't trying to suggest that Covid will turn out to be just another respiratory disease along the lines of the flu 😂

i guess the medics really haven't a clue and seem to be making it up as they go along and the politicians are afraid to say anything, and even in England, they are completely ignoring it at this stage, despite still elevated numbers - will be interesting to see what happens when schools and offices reopen there, as the young are certainly not getting any vax over there as they don't have the supply

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803641#Comment_117803641

Surely to God it must be about time for some company to bite the bullet and make a vaccine on a non profit basis and license it's production around the globe. Could you imagine how many lives it could save ?

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803723#Comment_117803723

In a non clown world that would have happened months ago and this pandemic would be over

Where there’s a will, there’s a way

Coca Cola produce 100 million bottles of poison a day 🤣

You’d think something that saves our lives would be easy.

Instead we have an artificial demand situation from glorified drug dealers, who we call pharmaceutical giants and they’ve invented a life saving medication that has a 6 month shelf life and in low volume

Lumen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803723#Comment_117803723

There is no such thing as a "non profit basis". Everyone with a job makes a profit, every supplier in the chain makes a margin. Cutting those margins will not increase supply, that's economic illiteracy.

The profits are what drives production.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803723#Comment_117803723

And ensure that company had plenty of existing capacity to make vaccines first of course rather than just any old non-vaccine company going in and promising the sun moon and stars.

Pauliedragon

I've spoken to a few people who were delighted to get their jab but are a bit iffy about getting boosters. I read earlier the CEO of Pfizer saying a new variant will eventually turn up that their vaccine won't work against but they'll be able to develop a new jab to combat that within 3 months. How many jabs will we need? I'll be happy to grab a booster but I can also understand people being a bit uncomfortable about multiple jabs of vaccines every year.

SnuggyBear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804086#Comment_117804086

Same I've spoken to a lot of people who won't get a booster including myself.

Kenno90

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804086#Comment_117804086

I'm one of those. I happily got my 2 doses but the side effects hit me hard. First dose i was like a zombie for a few days, no big deal. Second dose i had chest pains which made me worry. It cleared up after a few days but it does make me a little hesitant to get a booster (even though i probably will)

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804086#Comment_117804086

A new flu vaccine is developed every winter, so taking a vaccine for COVID-19 will be much the same eventually. We just need to be able to extend the efficacy of them before we can get it yearly. Until then I guess we'll have to take the boosters, or not.

A lot of the issues in third world countries haven't been just primarily supply, there's a lot of hesitancy too.

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804181#Comment_117804181

You're dead right but I think the main difference is we don't vaccinate the whole population every year with the flu jab only certain people. People in their 20,s 30,40s aren't used to yearly jabs and a lot just won't bother which might end up being a problem. If this ends up being a yearly thing vax rates will fall off a cliff at some stage as some people will just get fed up of heading to the GP annually.

nocoverart

We could do with a morale booster, like this crap just fooking off for good! could be just wishful thinking, but didn’t the Spanish Flu taper off?

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804236#Comment_117804236

Yes, Spanish flu just evolved into the flus we have now as far as I know.

Covid will also fook off. It'll still be around but eventually similar to measles and the like. Everyone will get vaccinated like now, and eventually it should become weakened with infections both in the vaccinated and unvaccinated. I would assume that once we have some sort of grip, a long term vaccine will be developed, something that can give us longer efficacy along with a virus that's less potent.

For the moment though I think a lot of people will still keep up the boosters for as long as Covid is killing. I never took the flu vaccine until last winter, nor did the family. Social distancing and masks helped, but it was the first Christmas there wasn't snots or sore throats in the house! So I'll be keeping that vaccine up, and maybe mask wearing during packed Christmas shop time!

bridest

I've been warned medically about over stimulating my immune system with top up boosters. Think I'll wait

Username2017

Biden on stage.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804288#Comment_117804288

That they used a picture of how a trump supporter looks today to make it, is hilarious.

airy fairy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804281#Comment_117804281

Warned? Has there been research that boosters are over stimulating immune systems already?

Lumen

@Pauliedragon wrote

 If this ends up being a yearly thing vax rates will fall off a cliff at some stage as some people will just get fed up of heading to the GP annually.

Pharmacists will probably do a fair amount. Also...

https://www.imt.ie/news/healthy-ireland-survey-shows-gp-visits-last-year-25-11-2019/

More than 40 per cent of those 12 to 17 year old had attended a GP in the previous 12 months, an average of 2.8 visits...More than 60 per cent of those aged between 15 and 24 had visited a GP during this time, and had an average of 3.1 visits.

But you did say "some people", so I can't necessarily disagree with that.

JDxtra

A vaccine that needs a booster after around 6 months is not a vaccine.

Username2017

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804640#Comment_117804640

I know it’s been rough tbh , the economy is destroyed, cartel flooding through the boarder snatching children on their way , businesses are shutting down , everywhere is hiring but nobody wants to work , staying home feeding off the government Is much more appealing to Biden supporters. But hey we have a female Vice President and the mean tweeter is gone so who cares 🥳

Wibbs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804851#Comment_117804851

I know this may come as a shock to some Irish people, but this is not America and we are not Americans, so who the hell is this "we" business?

Username2017

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804894#Comment_117804894

I live in the u.s.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804834#Comment_117804834

What is a vaccine?

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804958#Comment_117804958

In my mind, and I'm sure many others, a vaccine is something that provides good immunity against a particular disease for a reasonable period of time. I don't consider 6 months as a reasonable period of time.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805184#Comment_117805184

I don't think COVID boosters will be needed that often (i.e. 6 months) for most people, but have you got vaccines for travelling internationally before? Boosters are very common there and each vaccine has a period of protection and booster follow-up schedule.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805184#Comment_117805184

Vaccines don’t necessarily have a defined time span during which they must all give protection, and their efficacy is dependent to a degree on the host, and the virus they are protecting the recipient from. The protection acquired may not wane in many, and boosters may not be necessary for all, but they will be offered/recommended to all because it is difficult to know for certain who will need it and who won’t in advance.

Just because you think it should last longer, and it may well for many, does not mean it is not a vaccine. The definition of what a vaccine is, is easy to look up, google is your friend.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805184#Comment_117805184

That is not what a vaccine is. It might be how it is defined "in your mind", whatever that means, but it is not the definition of a vaccine. The word "vaccine" has a defined meaning and is not open to your own definition.

JDxtra

Let's be honest, I don't think as many people in Ireland would have signed up for the vaccine if it was widely known that it may only last 6 months for some.

My greatest risk of actually catching the virus was in those mass vaccination centres. I have never been so close to so many other people since this pandemic started. I don't fancy going through that again.

But my main concern now is that regardless if you need a one or not, a regular booster will be required to keep your vaccine passports valid.

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805302#Comment_117805302

Before this pandemic, if you were to do a poll on how long a vaccine should last I can bet you that not many people would say 6 months. Regardless of the definition of a vaccine, the perception is that it should be reasonably long lasting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805337#Comment_117805337

I would imagine that most people would say "depends on what the vaccine is for". Or I'd like to hope they would.

Besides, it doesn't matter what people's perception of the definition is, it only matters what the definition is.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117804152#Comment_117804152

Same here and I've always been staunchly pro-vaccination. The first dose did nothing to me except for a sore arm. The second seemed fine at first, just a sore arm and a bit of tiredness, but I got chest pains about a week later. It cleared up after another week or so but it was scary. I think I'll be speaking to my GP before taking any boosters.

Danno

Vaccine boosters will probably come in for the elderly and vulnerable, kind of like the "original" vaccine plan.

But then again, as we have seen, plans change.

In my own opinion there shouldn't be any requirement for boosters for the fit and healthy as things currently stand. For vaccinated healthy and fit folks - of which many have already contracted covid both pre-vaccine and in some cases post-vaccine, there should be a strong immune response to any further infections as the body "knows" what to do to ward it off.

Something NIAC should be looking into is the Valneva vaccine which is reputed to be "variant" proof owing to how it is made. If this gets approval and lives up to it's reputation then work on getting that out as "a booster". Our stockpiles of other vaccines could then be used to help third world countries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805363#Comment_117805363

In my own opinion there shouldn't be any requirement for boosters for the fit and healthy as things currently stand. For vaccinated healthy and fit folks - of which many have already contracted covid both pre-vaccine and in some cases post-vaccine, there should be a strong immune response to any further infections as the body "knows" what to do to ward it off.

That's not an "opinion" though. If the data shows that's true, then vaccinated healthy folks will not be recommended boosters. If not, vaccinated healthy folks will be recommended boosters.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805363#Comment_117805363

By the time Valneva has been approved most of the vaccines we have today will be expired (likely already used), there is going to need to be a lot of patience waiting for new vaccines to come online and the same slow ramp up and rollout. Pfizer/Moderna already have updated mRNA vaccines being trialed (and they can pivot pretty quickly for variants if needed), they don't think they're needed as the current vaccine is holding up well.

Former Former Former

Boosters will be a pain in the arse... but if the alternative is going back into lockdowns, hospitals full, schools closed, pubs closed... I'll take as many injections as I need to, to be honest.

ohnohedidnt

Soon the triple vaccinated will be looking down on the morally inferior double vaccinated, and demanding they be banished from public spaces, and their workplaces.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805469#Comment_117805469

Like the originals … they give you the shot in the arm!

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805469#Comment_117805469

All a waste of time tbh

Flatten the curve and let everyone get infected eventually was always they way out of this and will continue to be so.

A paper was released 2 days ago that is astounding.

I actually had to read the numbers a few times and re-read the paragraphs to make sure I wasn’t misreading it was so shocking.

They are saying previously infected but unvaccinated people were 27 times likely to have symptomatic COVID than vaccinated non previous infected naive persons

They might as well leave the kids get Covid now unvaccinated like chicken pox and not bother vaccinating them as they gonna get infected either way

Its really bad news for countries like New Zealand, Australia etc. They tried really hard to suppress now looks like vaccination won't be enough they gonna have to keep certain restrictions in place until they have some good natural immunity.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805553#Comment_117805553

Wait, then who were those people who asked me to drop my pants?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805799#Comment_117805799

It's a preprint still subject to review, however, if it's correct, then vaccination followed by exposure should deliver a very robust immune response at the least risk to the individual (and others). Boosters should be enough to prevent severe disease in those vulnerable to SARS-COV2.

The immunity from the vaccines is what keeps our hospital numbers down, reduces and prevents most deaths and lets the restrictions end.

The other two options are to let it rip through the population (as we'll see happen in countries with low vaccine take up) or pursue zero-COVID.

airy fairy

It is either use a vaccine that was developed very quickly, or wait until a longer lasting one was developed. But we also needed to take what is available to stop variants appearing.

I know I'll be happy to take a booster at certain times rather than go through the restrictions again.

The flu vaccine is redeveloped every year. I have yet to see someone develop a third eye from getting the flu vaccine every year.

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805861#Comment_117805861

If it's correct and looks it to me, then the narrative that vaccines offered more protection than natural infection has been absolute bullshit from the start, 27 times more likely is incredible, with 27 times more likely we should have been encouraging young healthy to get exposed to create herd immunity over the last 18 months and the curve would have been flattened big time.

Yes we will be fine here in terms of hospital numbers if we can control the spread, but we can't go mad either as not enough natural immunity exists in this country to let everyone get exposed, as the current 2% CHR ( case hospitilisation rate ) and 2000 cases a day is 40 hospital admissions a day at present and if that increases to 3,000-4,000 cases and 60-80 hospital admissions that isn't sustainable and our hospital cases will rise to 1,000 very quickly and we will be in trouble.

We should be fine though, it won't be a nice winter, hospitals will be busy, surgeries will be cancelled, but we will survive

Countries like Australia and NZ are absolutely bollox'd though, no natural immunity and they have a vaccine that's 27 times likely to have prevent symptomatic COVID than natural infection.

They will have to control transmission big time, even when everyone is vaccinated, they can't just let it rip.

2% CHR, a vaccine so so at preventing infection and no natural immunity at all is a disaster. Good luck to them

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117805799#Comment_117805799

Point of order here - "let everyone get infected eventually" was absolutely never the way out of this.

godzilla1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806066#Comment_117806066

It's the only way out

You, me, your family, your friends are all gonna get infected eventually, no escape from it.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806092#Comment_117806092

You had better hope that it's not, because the death toll will be massive and guess what, natural immunity doesn't last forever either.