Advertisement
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

DST thread disappeared

  • 28-08-2021 8:18am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    A relevant comment on DST and why clocks go forward rather than backwards when the hour hand goes back one hour in October and it is removed from this forum. The meteorologists will remind viewers of the need to put their clocks back in October despite the technical details which determine what DST does. Leave the explanation for what it is without further comment or moderation as it is new to most observers and no accurate explanation exists out there

    The effect of putting the clock hand back one hour is to return the clock forward to natural noon and its normal anchor in the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. There is a normal symmetry between sunrise and noon on one side and noon to sunset on the other before DST is applied. By moving the clock hand forward by one hour in Spring, the length of time between clock noon and sunset increases by an hour hence 'longer evenings' while the length of time from sunrise to clock noon decreases by one hour.

    Whoever removed the privilege of using links to demonstrate what happens is petty and does Irish society no favours, however, the discussion brings back the connection between one rotation and one sunrise/noon/sunset cycle linked to timekeeping. People should be ashamed of themselves until they accept accurate explanations that are presently not in existence and actively removed because it does not suit those who would keep people ignorant.



«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,101 Mod ✭✭✭✭ DOCARCH


    ....and? Really not sure what that has to do with weather???



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭ tphase


    is that you, Gabor Fekete?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,358 ✭✭✭ highdef


    I'm unsure as to what point you're trying to make? Are you just having an online waffle? Are you trying to start a discussion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    Tomorrow the Met Eireann forecaster will announce the arrival of meteorological Autumn despite the fact that the annual cycle is anchored to midsummer on the June Solstice just as daily rotation is anchored to the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. There is no astronomical noon versus meteorological noon as temperatures rise after 12 PM (post meridiem) and likewise the annual cycle is anchored from March Equinox (sunrise) to the September Equinox (sunset) with the June Solstice acting as annual noon. This is no trivial discussion on whether Autumn begins at the start of August, this is the relationship between planetary motions and temperatures along with effects (hurricane season, Arctic ice season, ect) which constitute both geographical and planetary climate as distinct yet intertwined.

    The disgraceful attempt to disappear the previous thread on the DST explanation (albeit locked) reflects poorly on contributors here and all the bag of tricks like 'what's the point', 'what has this to do with weather? ', prohibiting graphics and explanations just goes to demonstrate how those petty people do mind.

    Clocks go forward to their normal correlation between natural noon and 24 hour clock noon on the October adjustment even as the clock hand goes back. This is for observers who can develop an understanding of the relationship between timekeeping and the daily cycle, including temperature fluctuations, while using the explanation as a point for departure for explaining the annual hemispherical fluctuation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth and a separate rotation to the Sun parallel to the orbital plane.

    Once the annual temperature fluctuation is explained then it moves on to planetary climate and the rate of change in atmospheric and surface conditions as a function of the relationship between rotational inclination and the orbital plane.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    My head hurts.

    If you hadn't registered so many time then you'd be able to post links, etc.

    Everyone knows that temperatures rise after midday. Everyone knows that temperatures rise after the June Solstice. What's DST got to do with anything?

    Meteorological summer, just like the other seasons, is based on average monthly temperatures, which peak in July. That's it. There's no conspiracy.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    The way DST works off an asymmetry between natural sunrise and clock noon along with the extra hour between clock noon and natural sunset, thereby giving 'longer evenings' by moving the clock backwards in Spring through the natural cycle is a gorgeous topic that seques off into the wider topics of meteorology, climate, timekeeping, Earth sciences, solar system and Universal research. Clocks go forward at the end of October and while it may cause some people to pause, the reasons why are as satisfying as all the others for those who can be inspired no matter who tries to meddle with the explanation by their crude antics.

    Maybe people can justify their silence as much as they can the silly reactions to an explanation that extends the human productivity and creativity in the right direction but there is nothing trivial about this topic and would be for those who are not petty and small.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭ secman


    I have visions of a bowl of Crunchy Nuts 🥣



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    The foundations of timekeeping begin with the calendar framework and many thousands of years later involved the creation of clocks with their equable hours, minutes and seconds tied to the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. The DST adjustment is an outrigger of this framework where clock noon moves back one hour towards sunrise as the hour hand moves forward one hour in the Spring.

    The late 17th century empiricists and their clockwork solar system decided to shift the reference for each rotation away from the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle and towards the daily change in position of the stars in circumpolar motion around Polaris by misusing a clock and the calendar framework. They attempted to make timekeeping linear and created a fictional narrative of 'solar time versus sidereal time' to justify their vandalism. Recently, they have invented the 'astronomical seasons versus the meteorological seasons' in much the same type of vandalism that serves nobody and worse, distracts from the seasonal explanation which uses the Equinoxes and June Solstice as annual markers for the great surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth where the entire surface of the planet turns parallel to the orbital plane once each year.

    The fact that clocks move forward when DST is removed is no anecdotal narrative, but rather a technical issue that ties into many other technical issues. It takes genuine researchers to know what is being said.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,510 ✭✭✭ Doctor Jimbob


    Multiple accounts, several threads, feck knows how many posts, but still nothing even approaching a coherent discussion.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭ tphase


    assuming Orion402 is a real person, the only discussion going on is inside their head

    Post edited by tphase on


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402



    I make huge allowances for those people who are unable to appreciate what is being said including the fact that clocks move forward at the end of October rather than back as proposed by everyone from RTE to the European Parliament-

    " MEPs have voted to scrap the practice of moving clocks forward by an hour in Spring then back again in the autumn in the EU from April 2021, two years later than the EU executive initially proposed." RTE

    The one hour correction at the end of October returns the 24 hour cycle (clock) to its original position within the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle where the symmetry in the length of time between natural sunrise and clock noon becomes symmetrical once again with clock noon to natural sunset, hence this means clocks move forward in October. When DST is applied, a one hour asymmetry is created between natural sunrise and clock noon while the 'longer evenings' are created by the greater period of time between clock noon and natural sunset with noon as the anchor for the entire spectacle.

    DST and time zones are flexible extensions of the Latitude/Longitude framework which anchors the 24 hour day in every rotation to noon and the central/stationary Sun.

    In terms of weather, there is just noon and a rise in temperatures afterwards for a number of hours just as there is astronomical noon on the June Solstice with temperatures rising afterward. In this respect, there can be no meteorological seasons versus the astronomical seasons as the Met Eireann forecaster cheerfully announced at the lunchtime forecast by declaring this is the last day of summer. In the proper scheme where midsummer is defined by the dynamic traits of the Earth, the beginning of August represents the beginning of Autumn if people choose to split the orbit of the Earth into four seasonal parts by hemisphere just as the day is broken into sunrise, noon and sunset within the 24 hour cycle.

    Seeing I can no longer post links, the 'timeanddate' website showing sunrise/sunset times for any given location will demonstrate the DST asymmetry between the 24 hour cycle and the natural cycle and why clocks go forward in a few months. It is supposed to be enjoyable and so what if the experts go quiet, this is the way it has been for decades as people become familiar with a more productive perspective. Everything else is small and petty.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    Just as the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle provided the basis for constructing accurate clocks with its equable hours, minutes and seconds, then so does midsummer on the June Solstice provide so much culture on this island by way of its calendar constructed around human activity and the motions of the planet.

    The 3,600 BC Listogohil monument in Sligo is aligned to Samhain where societies on this island broke the year into the dark half from November 1st to May 1st and the light half for the following 6 months along with their respective festivals of Samhain and Bealtaine while Samhain took priority as being the start of the New Year. It coincided with the end of October or Deireadh Fomhair which means ' End of Harvest' and provides a beautiful placement for the highly developed 3,200 BC December Solstice alignment at Newgrange as a once-off world heritage site.

    The topic of explaining DST properly ties in with the seasons and the ability to put the annual cycle in context of weather, temperatures and the length of natural daylight arising from the motions of the Earth which orchestrate the whole spectacle. It is not for everyone, that much is clear, however, it is exceptionally rewarding for those willing to recognise that the motions of the Earth (astronomical seasons) dominate just as temperatures follow the path of the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle with astronomical noon as the anchor. I have no issue with the meteorological seasons other than it muddies appreciation of the dynamics responsible for changes relying on the orbital points of the Solstices and Equinoxes and specifically the relationship of the North and South poles to the dark hemisphere of the planet and this is where the real research of our planet and the solar system is.

    It is unwise to disturb the ancient heritage of this island even if our ancestors attached superstition to it, not because of the superstition, but because it contains the almost genetic memory of our culture in understanding the great cycles which make life possible.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭ OldRio


    Monty Python.



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    People should appreciate that when DST is removed, the length of time from sunrise to clock noon becomes symmetrical with the length of time from clock noon to sunset resulting in 'longer mornings'. It means clocks go forward to their anchor in natural noon rather than backwards as the less informed imagine.

    This is not a trivial issue and neither are the Solstice/Equinox markers for the orbital position of the Earth, which influence weather conditions across the planet and as a lead in to planetary climate proper. It is not for everyone as the reactions in this thread indicate but as this is really the first time DST has been explained in terms of both timekeeping and our planet's motions, especially rotation, derision is expected from some quarters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,539 ✭✭✭✭ Supercell


    Orion , wasn't your last post locked for utter jibber jabber?, this one isnt much of an improvement imho.

    Plus, there is an astronomy forum.

    Post edited by Supercell on

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    To be fair, none of this is presented for academics and their cheerleaders who surround them, it is for people encountering cause and effect for the first time in terms of DST and daily rotation to which the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems are anchored. Nobody else has done it before for very specific reasons related to the empirical subculture which misused timekeeping for the last 250+ years.

    Timekeeping is cyclical rather than linear, so when these fine people show up with graphs and conclusions about future planetary temperature conditions, they neglect the awful conclusions inherited from the original timekeeping misadventure where they attempted to anchor daily rotation to the daily change in position of the stars rather than its home in the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle and the central/stationary Sun.

    The reactions are petty, but that is expected whereas the more astute will understand why clocks move forward to natural noon in October and the symmetry between the length of times to sunrise and sunset. Don't disappear the thread like the last one, but let it drift away as is proper and dignified.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭ tphase


    ничто не превосходит излишества



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,074 ✭✭✭ OldRio


    Hello hello is there anybody in there,

    Just nod if you can hear me

    Is there anybody home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    Climate, like timepieces, depends on cyclical motions and especially the interaction between daily and orbital motions. I could dictate that datasets are worthless without first coming to appreciate what planetary climate is within a solar system context and in comparison to other planets but feel that is too drastic and rude.

    I accept this audience is not suitable for technical discussions on either planetary motions, Earth sciences or timekeeping and there I leave it.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭ tphase


    [quote]Climate, like timepieces, depends on cyclical motions and especially the interaction between daily and orbital motions.[/quote]

    In fact timepieces no longer depend on cyclical or orbital motions🌖

    For example the NPL's CsF2 clock is a "caesium fountain" atomic clock, in which the "ticking" is provided by the measurement of the energy required to change a property of caesium atoms known as "spin".By international definition, it is the electromagnetic waves required to accomplish this "spin flip" that are measured; when 9,192,631,770 peaks and troughs of these waves go by, one standard second passes. Inside the clock, caesium atoms are gathered into bunches of 100 million or so, and passed through a cavity where they are exposed to these electromagnetic waves. The colour, or frequency, is adjusted until the spins are seen to flip - then the researchers know the waves are at the right frequency to define the second.






    Many thanks to the BBC for the above text



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    There was always a slim chance that somebody with the necessary acuity would be able to deal with the technical details and for this reason I reiterate that nobody here is at fault and can safely go back to whatever they are doing.

    The misadventure with timekeeping in the late 17th century which led to empirical modelling by experimental theorists is that they consider timekeeping to be linear, hence they project conclusions and graphs to support their perspective on climate that way while ignoring the cyclical principles which define climate and timekeeping. Cause and effect were lost this way when the Royal Society theorists attempted to shift the reference for rotation away from the stationary/central Sun along with the day/night cycle and appealed to the daily change in the position of the stars in a framework called RA/Dec but better known as the 'clockwork solar system'. It ultimately leads to the most absurd conclusion ever proposed through a linear perspective of timekeeping-

    " It is a fact not generally known that, owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time, the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are 24 hour days in the year" NASA /Harvard

    The framework of RA/Dec occupies the same status as DST and Time Zones as flexible extensions of the primary framework which keeps rotation anchored to the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle by way of the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems. When people decided to diverge and make RA/Dec the primary framework, then cause and effect was lost and unfortunately remains so until a great deal is cleared up.

    I accept, with some dismay, that this audience is unsuitable for what is necessary to explain what DST represents in terms of timekeeping and planetary dynamics as a point of departure for considering other more developed topics. No need to disappear the thread like the last one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭ tphase


    The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. 

    ​- Marcel Proust



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Didn't you say you were done here?

    and there I leave it

    There are plenty of people with technical acuity, but nowhere near enough imagination to know what the hell you're talking about or what your point is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    The removal of DST at the end of October means that clocks go forward even as the hour hand is adjusted backwards by one hour and likewise clocks go backwards in Spring as the hour hand moves forward by one hour. For those with intellectual and perceptive integrity, clocks can only go backwards or return to their normal anchor in the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle.

    It is not presented for those who lack the technical acuity to appreciate the connection between cyclical timekeeping and the cyclical motions of the Earth and especially the latter, which determines the day/night cycle through rotation, the annual cycles as a combination of daily and orbital motions and finally planetary climate which is defined as the rate of change in atmospheric and surface conditions across latitudes as the planet orbits our parent star in comparison to other planets.

    Presently, there is an asymmetry between natural sunrise and clock noon in contrast to clock noon and natural sunset (longer evenings) so clocks go forward to their natural position at the end of next month when the symmetry between sunrise and clock noon along with clock noon and sunset is restored. I would demonstrate how this is derived from the Equation of Time by Huygens through a link, but people are petty and put all sorts of obstacles in the way by preventing links being posted.

    As for those who throw the kitchen sink at DST, I have to smile as it is nothing I haven't seen in so many productive topics over the years as they don't reach the level of perceptive faculties needed to consider these topics in a satisfying and calm way. I say to them as to others, these things are not for everyone.

    Post edited by Orion402 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    Apart from the sycophants, never mind the bluffer making a fool of himself, in October the clocks go forward and there is nobody else to argue against the technical details, as expected. The explanation is correct and that is all that counts.

    Now I repeat this once more, this is the wrong audience for discussing why natural noon and clock noon return to normal when DST is removed, everything else reflects deficiencies in understanding that principle that the length of time between sunrise and noon becomes symmetrical with noon and sunset in terms of timekeeping once the one hour moves back one hour next month.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭ Gaoth Laidir


    Now I repeat this once more, this is the wrong audience...



    I accept this audience is not suitable for technical discussions on either planetary motions, Earth sciences or timekeeping and there I leave it.

    You keep saying it but yet you keep coming back. Please, go and stay gone.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭ Orion402


    In terms of adjustment, the removal of DST is one of the most influential during the year as its appearance in Spring so now, for the first time in history, it is explained properly to an audience that I now understand is unsuitable for discussing anything. It reflects on yourselves as the explanation is correct as is its definite conclusion that despite the belief that clocks go back in October, they actually go forward.

    In asking to leave the thread to drift without further comment rather than make it disappear as the last thread did, as the one consolation contributors have to save their dignity, it appears they would rather cling to a bluffer out of his depth and be seen to be so. It doesn't matter, people apart from adoring cheerleaders, would already know bluffing when they see it.

    The people at Met Eireann should be ashamed of themselves, but then again, when the standard is so poor they can't be entirely held responsible for not knowing why timekeeping and the motions of the planet matter in terms of climate and meteorological effects.



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement