DST thread disappeared

Tomorrow the Met Eireann forecaster will announce the arrival of meteorological Autumn despite the fact that the annual cycle is anchored to midsummer on the June Solstice just as daily rotation is anchored to the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. There is no astronomical noon versus meteorological noon as temperatures rise after 12 PM (post meridiem) and likewise the annual cycle is anchored from March Equinox (sunrise) to the September Equinox (sunset) with the June Solstice acting as annual noon. This is no trivial discussion on whether Autumn begins at the start of August, this is the relationship between planetary motions and temperatures along with effects (hurricane season, Arctic ice season, ect) which constitute both geographical and planetary climate as distinct yet intertwined.

The disgraceful attempt to disappear the previous thread on the DST explanation (albeit locked) reflects poorly on contributors here and all the bag of tricks like 'what's the point', 'what has this to do with weather? ', prohibiting graphics and explanations just goes to demonstrate how those petty people do mind.

Clocks go forward to their normal correlation between natural noon and 24 hour clock noon on the October adjustment even as the clock hand goes back. This is for observers who can develop an understanding of the relationship between timekeeping and the daily cycle, including temperature fluctuations, while using the explanation as a point for departure for explaining the annual hemispherical fluctuation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth and a separate rotation to the Sun parallel to the orbital plane.

Once the annual temperature fluctuation is explained then it moves on to planetary climate and the rate of change in atmospheric and surface conditions as a function of the relationship between rotational inclination and the orbital plane.

The way DST works off an asymmetry between natural sunrise and clock noon along with the extra hour between clock noon and natural sunset, thereby giving 'longer evenings' by moving the clock backwards in Spring through the natural cycle is a gorgeous topic that seques off into the wider topics of meteorology, climate, timekeeping, Earth sciences, solar system and Universal research. Clocks go forward at the end of October and while it may cause some people to pause, the reasons why are as satisfying as all the others for those who can be inspired no matter who tries to meddle with the explanation by their crude antics.

Maybe people can justify their silence as much as they can the silly reactions to an explanation that extends the human productivity and creativity in the right direction but there is nothing trivial about this topic and would be for those who are not petty and small.

The foundations of timekeeping begin with the calendar framework and many thousands of years later involved the creation of clocks with their equable hours, minutes and seconds tied to the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle. The DST adjustment is an outrigger of this framework where clock noon moves back one hour towards sunrise as the hour hand moves forward one hour in the Spring.

The late 17th century empiricists and their clockwork solar system decided to shift the reference for each rotation away from the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle and towards the daily change in position of the stars in circumpolar motion around Polaris by misusing a clock and the calendar framework. They attempted to make timekeeping linear and created a fictional narrative of 'solar time versus sidereal time' to justify their vandalism. Recently, they have invented the 'astronomical seasons versus the meteorological seasons' in much the same type of vandalism that serves nobody and worse, distracts from the seasonal explanation which uses the Equinoxes and June Solstice as annual markers for the great surface rotation as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth where the entire surface of the planet turns parallel to the orbital plane once each year.

The fact that clocks move forward when DST is removed is no anecdotal narrative, but rather a technical issue that ties into many other technical issues. It takes genuine researchers to know what is being said.

Just as the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle provided the basis for constructing accurate clocks with its equable hours, minutes and seconds, then so does midsummer on the June Solstice provide so much culture on this island by way of its calendar constructed around human activity and the motions of the planet.

The 3,600 BC Listogohil monument in Sligo is aligned to Samhain where societies on this island broke the year into the dark half from November 1st to May 1st and the light half for the following 6 months along with their respective festivals of Samhain and Bealtaine while Samhain took priority as being the start of the New Year. It coincided with the end of October or Deireadh Fomhair which means ' End of Harvest' and provides a beautiful placement for the highly developed 3,200 BC December Solstice alignment at Newgrange as a once-off world heritage site.

The topic of explaining DST properly ties in with the seasons and the ability to put the annual cycle in context of weather, temperatures and the length of natural daylight arising from the motions of the Earth which orchestrate the whole spectacle. It is not for everyone, that much is clear, however, it is exceptionally rewarding for those willing to recognise that the motions of the Earth (astronomical seasons) dominate just as temperatures follow the path of the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle with astronomical noon as the anchor. I have no issue with the meteorological seasons other than it muddies appreciation of the dynamics responsible for changes relying on the orbital points of the Solstices and Equinoxes and specifically the relationship of the North and South poles to the dark hemisphere of the planet and this is where the real research of our planet and the solar system is.

It is unwise to disturb the ancient heritage of this island even if our ancestors attached superstition to it, not because of the superstition, but because it contains the almost genetic memory of our culture in understanding the great cycles which make life possible.

People should appreciate that when DST is removed, the length of time from sunrise to clock noon becomes symmetrical with the length of time from clock noon to sunset resulting in 'longer mornings'. It means clocks go forward to their anchor in natural noon rather than backwards as the less informed imagine.

This is not a trivial issue and neither are the Solstice/Equinox markers for the orbital position of the Earth, which influence weather conditions across the planet and as a lead in to planetary climate proper. It is not for everyone as the reactions in this thread indicate but as this is really the first time DST has been explained in terms of both timekeeping and our planet's motions, especially rotation, derision is expected from some quarters.

To be fair, none of this is presented for academics and their cheerleaders who surround them, it is for people encountering cause and effect for the first time in terms of DST and daily rotation to which the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems are anchored. Nobody else has done it before for very specific reasons related to the empirical subculture which misused timekeeping for the last 250+ years.

Timekeeping is cyclical rather than linear, so when these fine people show up with graphs and conclusions about future planetary temperature conditions, they neglect the awful conclusions inherited from the original timekeeping misadventure where they attempted to anchor daily rotation to the daily change in position of the stars rather than its home in the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle and the central/stationary Sun.

The reactions are petty, but that is expected whereas the more astute will understand why clocks move forward to natural noon in October and the symmetry between the length of times to sunrise and sunset. Don't disappear the thread like the last one, but let it drift away as is proper and dignified.

Climate, like timepieces, depends on cyclical motions and especially the interaction between daily and orbital motions. I could dictate that datasets are worthless without first coming to appreciate what planetary climate is within a solar system context and in comparison to other planets but feel that is too drastic and rude.

I accept this audience is not suitable for technical discussions on either planetary motions, Earth sciences or timekeeping and there I leave it.

The removal of DST at the end of October means that clocks go forward even as the hour hand is adjusted backwards by one hour and likewise clocks go backwards in Spring as the hour hand moves forward by one hour. For those with intellectual and perceptive integrity, clocks can only go backwards or return to their normal anchor in the sunrise/noon/sunset cycle.

It is not presented for those who lack the technical acuity to appreciate the connection between cyclical timekeeping and the cyclical motions of the Earth and especially the latter, which determines the day/night cycle through rotation, the annual cycles as a combination of daily and orbital motions and finally planetary climate which is defined as the rate of change in atmospheric and surface conditions across latitudes as the planet orbits our parent star in comparison to other planets.

Presently, there is an asymmetry between natural sunrise and clock noon in contrast to clock noon and natural sunset (longer evenings) so clocks go forward to their natural position at the end of next month when the symmetry between sunrise and clock noon along with clock noon and sunset is restored. I would demonstrate how this is derived from the Equation of Time by Huygens through a link, but people are petty and put all sorts of obstacles in the way by preventing links being posted.

As for those who throw the kitchen sink at DST, I have to smile as it is nothing I haven't seen in so many productive topics over the years as they don't reach the level of perceptive faculties needed to consider these topics in a satisfying and calm way. I say to them as to others, these things are not for everyone.

Apart from the sycophants, never mind the bluffer making a fool of himself, in October the clocks go forward and there is nobody else to argue against the technical details, as expected. The explanation is correct and that is all that counts.

Now I repeat this once more, this is the wrong audience for discussing why natural noon and clock noon return to normal when DST is removed, everything else reflects deficiencies in understanding that principle that the length of time between sunrise and noon becomes symmetrical with noon and sunset in terms of timekeeping once the one hour moves back one hour next month.

In terms of adjustment, the removal of DST is one of the most influential during the year as its appearance in Spring so now, for the first time in history, it is explained properly to an audience that I now understand is unsuitable for discussing anything. It reflects on yourselves as the explanation is correct as is its definite conclusion that despite the belief that clocks go back in October, they actually go forward.

In asking to leave the thread to drift without further comment rather than make it disappear as the last thread did, as the one consolation contributors have to save their dignity, it appears they would rather cling to a bluffer out of his depth and be seen to be so. It doesn't matter, people apart from adoring cheerleaders, would already know bluffing when they see it.

The people at Met Eireann should be ashamed of themselves, but then again, when the standard is so poor they can't be entirely held responsible for not knowing why timekeeping and the motions of the planet matter in terms of climate and meteorological effects.

John Creedon's documentary was on RTE at lunchtime and there was an old gentleman farmer taking weather measurements as he did for many years and sending them on. He said the whole thing came naturally to him and that is the difference between those who can come to the satisfying conclusions as opposed to those who struggle and can't hide it with extraneous nonsense.

It should remind everyone that weather is a cultural thing on this island given the deireadh fomhair at the end of October begins the New Year on this island (Samhain) celebrated for as long as inhabitants worked with the changes in daylight and darkness. It's all the more surprising how a straightforward explanation of removing DST which returns the symmetry between natural sunrise and clock noon with clock noon and natural sunset when clocks move forward to their normal position linked to noon at the end of October is met with such silence. It means moving the hand back one hour, but within the structure of daily rotation and timekeeping, clocks move forward.

I do not have time to waste on bluffers and their figure-8 wandering Sun (analemma), the principles of timekeeping which anchor rotation to noon and the central/stationary Sun are fixed by a symmetry between sunrise and sunset with the natural inequalities evened out to connect the variable lengths in the full noon cycle with the equable 24 hour clock when the system first emerged with reasonably accurate clocks-

" At the rising and setting of the Sun, when it is half above the horizon, mark the time of the day, which the watches then show; and though you have in the mean time sailed on, it is not considerable. Then reckon by the watches, what time is elapsed between them, and add the half thereof to the time of the rising, and you shall have the time by the watches, when the Sun was at South; to which is to be added the equation of time the present day by the table. And if this together makes 12 hours, then was the ship at noon under the same Meridian, where the watches were set with the Sun. But if the sum be more than 12, then was she at Noon under a more Westerly Meridian: and if less, then under a more Easterly; and that by as many times 15 degrees, as that Summe exceeds or comes short hours of 12: as the Calculation thereof hath been already delivered. " Christian Huygens, Concerning the Use of Pendulum-Watche for finding the Longitude at Sea

DST, time zones and RA/Dec would normally be useful extensions of the 24 hour and Lat/Long systems, however, in this era where few can put DST in context of daily rotation, be it ever so straightforward and simple. It comes down to being a cultural thing rather than meteorological or astronomical as the effects are so pronounced at our latitude on this island. It is for these people who know the end of autumn occurs at the end of October and is a cultural thing backed by technical details stretching back to antiquity, that clocks go forward in October despite the hour hand moving backwards.

The old farmers knew enough not to vandalise old monuments and likewise the cultural heritage of this island which is far more powerful and more intimate than present company imagine, including the divisions of the seasons and why they choose the invariant cycles supplied by the motions of the Earth rather than weather.

(I should add that nobody needs to deal with how the averaging process of the natural noon cycle transfers to constant rotation and the Lat/Long system, although it is helpful to appreciate how things were done in order to anchor rotation to the day/night cycle)