Have you ever had Sympathy for a prostitute or a serial killer?

AMKC

I ask this because I am watching a program on Aileen Wournos. She killed seven men in a year and yes it was not right what she done but at the same time fair play to her.

I have some sympathy for her because of how she was brought up. She was a buses by her Grandparents and then made homeless when her Grandmother died because the grandfather blamed her and she was only 15 at this time still a girl basically but she had already been pregnant and had a baby at 14 as well as selling her body for sex. She done this because of the way she was treated so yes I have sympathy for her.

I felt for Julia Roberts when the women in the posh shop were mean to her

Ray Palmer

I pity the people who can't have sympathy for people. Take the Uni Bomber he was tortured by the US government when younger to see what would happen. People who say it is all bleeding heart liberal nonsense to consider somebody's upbringing but I think it says a lot about their own upbringing.

Fann Linn

Hitler was a good man, give him his due.

CGI_Livia_Soprano

Prostitutes and serial killers aren’t equivalent to teach other. The perceived immorality around prostitution centres on human trafficking, sex slavery, lack of consent etc.

Serial killing is deeply immoral whereas there is nothing inherently immoral about someone being a prostitute.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798084#Comment_117798084

People who don't feel sympathy for someone's circumstances or more accurately vilify them are essentially frightened of the thought of exploring a deeper level of humanity. It terrifies them so they slam the shutters down and effectively engage in victim blaming.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798106#Comment_117798106

I think it is more fundamental than that. Some people never learn deductive reasoning and are emotionally stunted on top and very likely to encourage the same mentality in their own children.

hatrickpatrick

One is an entirely victimless "crime" and the other is very decidedly not. Silly comparison in my view.

I met a prostitute two or three years back on my way home from a night out in Dublin City, during one of those very cold snaps we had a few Winters back. She was sitting on one of those triangular bridges over the canal around Charlemont or Leeson Street. I was walking home and she called out and asked if I was "looking for business", I replied that it was far too cold and that I didn't reckon she'd get any customers on that particular night as town was already fairly empty and it was so unimaginably cold (I was heading for a night bus but the vast majority of people had left the club and gone straight for the nearest taxi), and she shrugged and said I'd be surprised.

Definitely felt incredibly sorry for her though, soliciting clients at 4AM in sub-zero December temperatures must have been f*cking miserable, and it got me thinking how absurd it is that people like her aren't allowed to just openly advertise for clients from their home or work for a business which might have central heating and a roof for them to work under. Prohibition of prostitution is utterly ridiculous. By all means ruthlessly prosecute the non-consensual side of the business and stamp it out, but telling people what they can or cannot do with their own bodies is fundamentally immoral on the most basic level.

I would have sympathy for a prostitute but how could anyone have sympathy for a serial killer.

Jequ0n

I’ll never understand why people think that the ability to sympathise/ empathise is so important.

You can either feel it (so some extent maybe) or you can’t. Doesn’t change a thing at the end of the day though.

I've never known any serial killers... so that's one thing I can't comment on. I've known a few prostitutes (female and male) over the years (both here and abroad). It's just a profession. Some people are pushed into it, others enter it with their eyes wide open. I'd have sympathy for street walkers, since they don't seem to be doing well from the overall thing.. and it's incredibly dangerous work.

The simple truth is that many people have differing perspectives on the importance, or can layer meaning when it comes to sex. Most of the prostitutes I've known would have very flexible perceptive's about sex.. it's one of the reasons why many prostitutes won't kiss (apart from the hygiene element), but to differentiate between sex and making love (with their desired partner). Then again, a few women I've known who have dabbled with prostitution have done it for their own kicks, or as an act of revenge on their existing partner.. and then there's the fact that it can be a very easy way to make money for some. I know an escort in Singapore and she's raking in the cash, expecting to retire completely before she's 40. There's not many people in standard professions who could make the same estimation for retiring.

OP, I can't see the connection between prostitution and killing. Prostitution should be completely legal, and accepted as any other profession, giving prostitutes the same protections, and taxing the industry properly. This keeping it in the gray area of society encourages abuse of all kinds.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058205563/have-you-ever-had-sympathy-for-a-prostitute-or-a-serial-killer

Being expected to have sympathy for either prostitutes or serial killers, or serial killers who engage in prostitution, is just not something I’m bothered to do tbh. I wouldn’t have sympathy for anyone who chooses to enter into prostitution, or kills anyone else, never mind several people, regardless of how they attempt to justify their behaviour. It’s an excuse, not a justification.

Using that rationale, it would stand to reason that anyone who experiences abuse as children is more likely to become a serial killer or engage in prostitution, or both, and it simply isn’t the case for people who choose to become either serial killers or people who choose to engage in prostitution, that they had any sort of ill experiences in childhood which led them directly to becoming either serial killers, prostitutes, or both.

Certainly I would have sympathy for anyone who experienced a difficult childhood, but using their difficult childhood to justify their behaviour as adults? I don’t think so.

AMKC

I was not trying to compare them. I just used both because this Women was a prostitute before she became a serial killer. She got death by lethal injection in the end. Not a nice way to die but I suppose after coldly shooting 7 men she deserved it. She had a horrible upbringing do.

Montage of Feck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798084#Comment_117798084

The unibomber wasn't half wrong to be fair to him just his methods were a bit extreme.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798089#Comment_117798089

He was a gas man

What a bizarre comparison OP. In fact I would go so far as to say it is bonkers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798301#Comment_117798301

Serial killer job breakdown

• Top 3 Skilled Serial-Killer Occupations: 1. Aircraft machinist/assembler; 2. Shoemaker/repair person; 3. Automobile upholsterer
• Top 3 Semi-Skilled Serial Killer Occupations: 1. Forestry worker/arborist; 2. Truck driver; 3. Warehouse manager
• Top 3 Unskilled Serial Killer Occupations: 1. General laborer (mover, landscaper, et. al.); 2. Hotel porter; 3. Gas station attendant
• Top 3 Professional/Government Serial Killer Occupations: 1. Police/security official; 2. Military personnel; 3. Religious official

https://neurosciencenews.com/careers-psychopaths-18055/

[Although, the logic of the breakdown is rather creepy in itself]

Strangely enough, prostitution doesn't seem to appear that much.

Although for female serial killers, there's no similar analysis, although I did find this (pages 213/214 caught my eye):

https://books.google.ie/books?id=PvBNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=female+serial+killers+jobs&source=bl&ots=s6ZqMPyiP3&sig=ACfU3U1xh-lG1c37_2vMy5NqrJAaRfj_wQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjkr9rR3cryAhXEiVwKHcOQCYQQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=female%20serial%20killers%20jobs&f=false

Sleeper12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798098#Comment_117798098

Yeah, I only clicked the thread because I was shocked that someone would compare someone working in the sex industry & a serial killer. Serial killer will get at least one life sentence if caught. Call girl won't have any charges let alone convictions for her work

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798183#Comment_117798183

Serial Killers are placed into a special compartment in my brain. You have "ordinary" murderers, the likes of Graham whatshisface. People who kill a single person out of malice/hate/whatever and cover it up. The level of cruelty and detachment is huge, but at a fundamental level they tend to be "normal" people who have committed a murder for whatever reason. I have only disgust for them.

Serial killers though are on a whole other level. They cannot be considered "normal" by any stretch of the imagination. They can be insanely intelligent and socially aware, but the extremes of cruelty and detachment they display to their victims and to the rest of society as a whole, can really only be explained by the individual being badly "broken" at a fundamental level.

Do I feel sorry for them? Not in the slightest. But I don't really consider them fully "human". In the same way that you don't feel angry at a wild animal for killing someone or doing damage, you accept that this is just what they are. And you take whatever measures are needed to contain them and protect everyone else.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800739#Comment_117800739

Most serial killers are below average intelligence you have been sucked into the media made belief they are all super smart. They are as human as anyone else and that you can determine they are sub-human actually suggest psychopathy in you. The fact you can believe a person is damaged and don't care how they became damaged and how to prevent it happening to others suggests you lack basic empathy which again indicates psychopathy. You should look it up as it doesn't mean what you think it does as it doesn't mean you are a danger to others.

You can mistreat 2 dogs and one will be a cowering mess and the other vicious snarling beast. Both are victims of abuse one is just easier to have sympathy for and the same applies to people. Nice and easy to say lock them up and never help them especially if you arleady decided they are subhuman. It is the same excuse people have used for genocide and war.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117800739#Comment_117800739

The only reason he didnt end up as a serial killer is because he got caught after the first one. He would have found another vulnerable victim sooner or later and did the same.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801017#Comment_117801017

nothing but an assumption

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798177#Comment_117798177

Genuine question and not meant as a challenge: why would you feel sympathy for someone who messed up their life and has to suffer the consequences? I struggle with that concept

mrcheez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798301#Comment_117798301

The title of your post says "prostitute or a serial killer" in other words you're asking 2 questions

"Have you ever had Sympathy for a prostitute"

"Have you ever had Sympathy for a serial killer"

What you probably meant to ask was "prostitue AND and serial killer" ?!? But still the prostitute aspect is irrelevant

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801116#Comment_117801116

How do you know they messed up their life? Lets say that women was rapped by multiple family members from the age of 4 till 16 when she ran away from home and turned to drugs then prostitution to pay for her habit. Still no sympathy from you?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801149#Comment_117801149

Well no, why? It’s still ultimately their choice what she does with her life?

I think we’re always in the pursuit of explanation of the human condition when faced with terrible crimes such as serial killing etc maybe we’re in a state of denial that such a thing could occur by “rational” human beings who hold down jobs mortgages even marriages - I guess the truth is human beings are capable of all sorts of terrible things- we use terms like “evil” but that’s because we’ve no other words to describe their actions.

As regards sympathy or empathy, I think these are strong words to use- I guess where a criminals background has been detailed and it’s been nearly as horrific as the crime they committed , maybe I’d stretch to “understanding” - it still doesn’t mean I think the perpetrator should walk free but I’m not a fan of “burn them at the stake” sort of approach some people are. I’d prefer to focus on how can we make society better, and how can we prevent people with potentially a predisposition to carry out “evil” acts to refrain from doing so.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798089#Comment_117798089

He killed that b*stard Hitler, but no one ever gives him the credit he deserves for that!!

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801105#Comment_117801105

Of course it is an assumption. I didn't know him personally. but the manner of the murder suggests he was unlikely to stop after one.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801181#Comment_117801181

That is psychotic. At what point of being 4 did she choose to be rapped? Say if nobody ever taught you to read or write growing up, would it be your fault you couldn't read or write at 16? Would it effect your choices going forward? Now apply that to any knowledge you should get growing up including sexual consent and self esteem

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801187#Comment_117801187

You can have both empathy and sympathy for somebody and still think they need to be in prison and a danger to others. There is no need to exclude the feelings and healthy thoughts

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801238#Comment_117801238

Where did I suggest she agreed to be raped?

I am saying its irrelevant as the adult version has a choice over their life. If a person wants to prostitute themselves and buy drugs it’s their choice.

GunnerBlue

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801300#Comment_117801300

Unbelievably ignorant.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801300#Comment_117801300

I explained it in a way that I thought you might understand. If you answer the questions put to you I will answer your question

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801238#Comment_117801238

Ray you’re like someone that swallowed the DSM5, dial it back a bit for goodness sake.

Nobody is suggesting that anyone is responsible for anything they aren’t responsible for - they’re not responsible for their own upbringing for example, but they are entirely responsible for their behaviour as adults.

One can certainly either sympathise or empathise with another person or people, but being unwilling to do so doesn’t mean anyone is psychotic or any of the rest of it. It’s really basic stuff that doesn’t need to be complicated.

Using the example of the woman in question who the OP was talking about, Aileen Wournos - it’s as you suggested earlier, easy to have sympathy for the idea that she suffered a difficult childhood, but that doesn’t necessarily have any bearing on her choices either to enter into prostitution, or to kill seven men. I don’t suggest anyone have any sympathy for the men she killed, because they made choices too which indicate they were fairly shìtty individuals.

However she may have felt, or didn’t feel about them, Aileen Wournos had a choice as to whether or not she should kill them, and she knew that killing them was wrong. She initially argued that it was in self-defence, and later admitted that it wasn’t in self-defence at all. That’s where your comparison to our ability to sympathise with or empathise with animals also falls down - humans just don’t have an ability to empathise with animals. Certainly we can sympathise with them, but empathy is an entirely separate concept.

You’re again just falling into the trap of assuming that if we understand what motivates one individual, we can apply that knowledge to other individuals who exhibit the same behaviours. Same way you suggest that most serial killers are believed to be below average intelligence in contrast to Seamus’ point that they are above average intelligence, when in reality - both statements can be true, depending upon where you get your information from.

In Wournos case specifically, we know that she was capable of both empathy and sympathy, and that she was not psychotic or psychopathic, but entirely and fully responsible for her behaviour. Nobody has claimed she is responsible for what happened to her in childhood, and that cannot and should not be used as an excuse or an explanation for her behaviour as an adult.

We know for example that the vast majority of adults who experience abuse as children, do NOT go on to commit abuse as adults themselves. The reason surveys and statistics are often skewed to present a misleading understanding of reality is because they are based upon surveying people who have been convicted of offences, who are by reason of their behaviour, not the most trustworthy, reliable or credible subjects for any study.

They’re far more inclined to tell people doing the survey what they think that person or people want to hear, similar to the way in which parole hearings are conducted, and they wish to elicit sympathy from their audience - they’re doing it because there is often an incentive for them to do so. It’s the reason why when people who abuse children are being tried, they claim that they too were abused as children, evoking exactly the kind of reasoning you’re applying - that would explain why they thought their behaviour was acceptable, or they felt compelled by factors outside of their control to inflict cruelty and suffering upon another human being. In many cases it’s precisely because they ARE capable of understanding the effects of their behaviour upon another person is the reason why they do it.

Not because if they hadn’t been abused, they wouldn’t go on to do it to another person, but precisely because they have a fair idea of the effect their behaviour is likely to have on another person. That knowledge too, is based upon empathy, and their lack of sympathy for another person’s suffering. I think that’s the distinction you’re missing in claiming that on the basis of your disagreement with another person’s opinion, according to you they must be psychotic. That’s fairly shaky reasoning if you don’t mind my saying so.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hide-and-seek/201505/empathy-vs-sympathy

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileen_Wuornos

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801430#Comment_117801430

I had read this as a rhetorical question. You can argue that everything influences you, and some people get dealt a rougher card than others. It doesn’t take away from the fact that you are still responsible for your own actions and choices, and how you deal with them. Plenty of people out there who play the eternal victim card instead of getting their **** together.

You will find that the vast majority of people, even if they have impaired empathy, are perfectly able to distinguish right from wrong. It’s ultimately a choice whether we adhere to these rules or don’t.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801548#Comment_117801548

You still didn't answer. I am saying you have impaired empathy based on what you have said

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801477#Comment_117801477

Don't know why you had to write all that and bring up things I didn't say or suggest. Never said abusers go on to abuse for example. It was al about people not having sympathy or empathy for people who committed crimes. Never suggested freeing people from jail either. This is where your entire rant falls down as I didn't say the things you wanted to talk about and as such has nothing to do with what I said

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801738#Comment_117801738

No different Ray than your own claim you were explaining something to someone in a way you imagined they would understand.

I won’t accuse you of having impaired empathy though for trying to deflect from the point being made, because that would be stupid.

85603

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798305#Comment_117798305

I lost all sympathy for the unabomber when in some interview he casually brushed off blinding some people.

Like 'oh that device didnt really get the job done, just maimed or blinded some people' said nonchalantly, because he had grander, more important plans you see.

Over the cliff he goes. It wont fix the world unfortunately but hey operational setback. I'm sure he'd understand.

Yeah she did make those choices, but her absolutely ghastly childhood at the hands of that degenerate, and the trauma that resulted, is bound to have shaped those choices. So I do partially blame her grandfather, and her mother for neglecting her. A monster was created.

Yeah the Unabomber seems like a manipulative sort - I've felt bad for him myself... but hang on, he literally posted bombs that were opened by random individuals, who were either killed or maimed.

The CIA experiment stuff was horrific - his rage understandable. I assume also that he was high on the spectrum and/or has serious mental health issues, and this left him a lonely boy, which is heartbreaking. I feel sad for that little boy. But his anger and despair resulted in him taking it out on innocent people, and having a complete lack of empathy.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801809#Comment_117801809

Stupid is talking up an entire other subject and claiming they are the same. The empathy or sympathy levels or a perpetrator of a crime has nothing to do with that of the people hearing about the crime and their OWN empathy and sympathy. There is no relationship to what you spoke about and what I was speaking about

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801709#Comment_117801709

I still can't see how the reading/ writing example you want to debate will change anything. I will assume you are basing this hypothetical scenario in some part of the world where these skills would not be picked up by the schooling system. Of course this will impact you and exclude you from certain routes in life unless you decide to do something about it. You can, of course, also decide to blame everyone else for your misfortune and accept that this is enough of an excuse to justify all of your life choices. It's sink or swim.

Of course I have impaired empathy, I never made a secret of it.It's the reason why I asked the previous poster for his rationale because it interested me.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802027#Comment_117802027

What, you mean like asking the question if someone isn’t taught to read or write is it their own fault? You did that Ray, nobody else.

The empathy or sympathy levels anyone feels towards another person is entirely based upon their capacity to sympathise or empathise with that persons circumstances, in this particular case, the case the OP was referring to - Aileen Wournos, and that’s why I used her as an example to make the point, one which I have no doubt you understood perfectly, one which you claim there was no relationship to what you were speaking about and what I was speaking about, based entirely upon what you had said.

You can choose to pretend you’re having difficulty understanding the relationship between what you said and my response, but I know that not to be the case, precisely because I know you’re NOT stupid.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117801987#Comment_117801987

the tried to break him mentally as an experiment when he was younger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802147#Comment_117802147

An analogue is that not a completely different point which is not what you did. Explaining that behaviour/moral is learnt like any other piece of knowledge is nowhere near the same as what you did.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802034#Comment_117802034

then when I said it I was correct. That is therfore your problem and nothing I can solve for you. You should just accept you have the issue and trauma to a person means they will be damaged and have extremely limited choice. It is not the same as saying everybody is a product of their environment and they can brush it off as an adult and make good choices from then on. You might as well be asking a person with a broken spine to walk

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802394#Comment_117802394

As I said earlier: you do not need empathy to know right from wrong.

All you are doing is explaining and justifying how people do not have a choice over their lives and how they pan out, no matter the circumstances.

If a prostitute prefers to freeze her ass off, instead of changing her life, then it’s her choice and I can’t see why it’s deemed so unacceptable if someone doesn’t sympathise.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802459#Comment_117802459

Actually you do need them to know what is morally right from wrong. Because you lack them you have to be told which is right and wrong, that is you problem. It's like you are colour blind and nobody can see it for you. You are not fully functional and appear to be saying you are on the autistic spectrum. You need to accept that is part of your condition and understand others have conditions and can't see the world like you. You need to learn this restriction and see you can't change it the same way others can't change their behaviour if is damaging to them or not. You assume choices are equal for all when they clearly aren't

There's some interesting reading by a Dr Seligman who wrote the book on learned helplessness. He performed shock training on dogs by placing them in inescapable situations until they were conditioned to not to react to opportunities to escape, even when they were later placed in safe environments the dogs were unable to respond. He used this information to base his hypothesis that clinical depression and related mental illness result in part from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.

Can't post links because I'm not here long enough. He wrote a lot of books though.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117802484#Comment_117802484

You are very quick to jump to conclusions. I am not autistic, though I can see how you came to this wrong conclusion.

Yes, there are situations when you need to be told more clearly what is acceptable or not, but whether you adhere to it is an entirely different bag.

I was not speaking of morality or ethics, but of legal implications of right and wrong. Most murderers who willingly kill someone were aware that they are breaking the law. Morality is just a bizarre concept that is so individual that it cannot serve as a benchmark.