Upscalers, modern TVs and related blasphemy

McDermotX

Disappointing news re: OSSC Pro

Just can't come together at the moment...component market forces etc, so any proposed launch has gone on hold until a more feasible time

https://videogameperfection.com/2022/01/14/newsletter-component-crunch/

Colonel Panic

https://www.retrotink.com/post/retrotink-5x-pro-firmware-updates

New RetroTink 5x firmware. Mostly new resolutions but also you can set a default profile, which is useful

o1s1n

Nice, I'll check that out! Yeah it's been a bit annoying having to select the profile I want to use every time I switch it on. Small enough niggle though.

Do you ever notice a bit of a jiddering in the image at all? I was playing my NES there recently over RGB and noticed something a bit odd - can mainly see it in an Everdrive menu when there's text. Only way I can really describe it is a drop shadow on letters. The drop shadow will be on one side and then it might shift to the other side. It's not constant, just happens randomly.

Must see if it happens for any other consoles.

Colonel Panic

Hmm, sometimes I see it when the resolution changes, or the Tink thinks it has when you change to a very different screen. It's like it's trying to correct its horizontal sampling rate.

It happens sometimes for me on the Saturn when in the Fenrir menus but it's very brief and seems to happen once, then everything is pixel sharp.

I haven't used my NES enough on it to compare but I'm sure it'll be in play soon so I'll let you know.

o1s1n

Ah grand, I was hoping it might be something as innocuous as that - was worried it might be my TV not being a good fit for the Retrotink.

o1s1n

So how are folks getting on with their Retrotinks?

I was moving about some bits in my AV setup last night and it really did strike me how badly placed the scart port is on the side. It's actually backwards too. Can see it here below, the cable comes towards the front of the unit, should be heading towards the back.

I'm actually a bit concerned about the forces being exerted on the port because of this as you've to loop the cable back over the unit.

I see you can actually get an adapter to change the orientation, but you're talking 50 quid+after adding a shell, postage and tax...it is very neat looking though!

https://kytor.com/store/product/5x-y-z/

Inviere

I've never seen the 5x running in person, so @o1s1n, question time...

Full on CRT Trinitron versus RT5X on a modern display...what's the verdict?

I'm thinking down the line a bit, when the inevitable happens to my larger CRT....are they actually worth the seeming constant worry/maintenance if the 5X can get you 90% of the way there?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473335#Comment_120473335

It definitely can fool your brain into thinking you're looking at a large CRT screen. The image just looks right, it's definitely quite pleasing.

However, if I still had the space for a 29 inch Trini I'd still have one and I'd still be trying to keep it alive.

This is going to sound really subjective and maybe a bit silly so may not be a concern for most, but analogue video on a CRT to me just feels 'alive' - you've the glow of phosphors which just can't be recreated on a flat panel. The image looks very very similar, but it's missing that aspect.

Saying that, I'm using a 5 year old Sony LED TV, so I'd imagine a decent OLED will improve that quite a lot. Perhaps it helps negate it completely.

I suppose the big impact of it for me is I'm no longer fearful of a future devoid of CRTs. I can now play all my old consoles on something that supports HDMI, scaled correctly and with CRT filters that make it look like it's meant to look. Pretty much future proofed!

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473397#Comment_120473397

I think I know what you mean re alive. It's literally what it is, a flat image on a flat panel....it's missing that 'something' akin to vibrancy. Maybe an OLED bridges the gap, I'd be interested to hear anyone's experiences with a 5X and an OLED. Image retention & static HUD elements is a cause of concern, but there's nothing I despise more in a modern tv panel than local dimming zones & the awful halo left around things.

tonyotonyo

Crts can feel alive alright

Retr0gamer

I see the retrotink is getting HDR support as well which should brighten up the image, especially when using scanlines. Should look closer to CRT phosphors as well.

I was going to buy one this month as thought I had the money but the weekend delayed my mortgage payment so that idea is out the window...

Mucashinto

I’m talking rubbish as I don’t really know how this stuff works but then I get a bit arsey as I held off on a high refresh display as smarter people than me said the ‘human eye can only see at 30fps’ and anything else was chad gamers with their ‘bigger number better’ mentality. (How has this been explained by the way, everyone and their granny can see that 120fps is vastly better than 60fps surely?)

But CRTs…they’re just magic to me. Just a really perfect harmony between humans and technology. It’s not that the image is there, it’s how your eyes/brain perceive it to be.

Could Bjork ever be that concerned with a flat panel? 🙂 An underpowered computer connected to a load of cheap lightbulbs…

I’m going to try and get myself some crts to see me through the next while and then maybe flat panels will have gotten to the stage where they can reasonably emulate this. Not sure how they’ll do this though, or if they’ll want to.

4:3 aspect ratio and curved display for a start I suppose. Then some way of emulating the ‘emissive’ output of CRTs. Maybe a 240hz panel and then output a quarter of each 60hz frame so that the image isn’t just static on the screen? Or with retro gaming is there a way of reading the end of each line of an image so you can insert scan lines etc? Maybe flat panels will be able to gradually increase the light of an image, rather than ‘here’s an image, and here’s an image’, etc.?

Just mad for me to think that no matter how much you spend on your state of the art flat panel, basically your granny had a better Tv than you. Brutal.

I’ve had a few drinks.

o1s1n

Have you ever heard of an FED display? Never took off unfortunately, but it's flat panel technology that fired electrons at phosphors, so the same process as a CRT.

Rather than one CRT, it was array of thousands upon thousands of tiny nanoscopic electron guns, each one forming a sub pixel which would shoot an electron at RGB phosphors to form the actual pixel.

The wiki page is worth a read, it's really fascinating stuff. So there IS technology out there in theory which can achieve what we are looking for... who knows, it might even rear it's head again in the future in some other form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-emission_display

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476593#Comment_120476593

I think the current tech being cheap and light weight is what wins in the end. Most customers don't care about picture clarity but how the TV looks in their sitting room with their furniture. It's the only way to explain how we have put up with quite frankly disgusting LCD and LED tech for so long. They make old dark films completely unreadable on the screen and as a result all new movies have to be high contrast to accommodate.

I welcome out OLED overlords and whatever tech comes that can match it.

Inviere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477030#Comment_120477030

Yeah it seems to be OLED or nothing at the moment. MicroLED is on the horizon, but is quite a while away before it's ubiquitous and affordable.

o1s1n

How do folks find their TV handles changing between 480i and 240p with their Retrotink 5X?

It hasn't really been an issue for me before as I mostly play 240p stuff. Decided to connect up a PS1 over the weekend, which has the Sony logo boot / jingle at the start in 480i but then generally change to 240p for games.

I get this annoying thing happen where my TV image flicks for the resolution change to 480i and then flicks again for the 240p signal. Like it's redetecting the video signal for each resolution. (the OSD also displays the video signal information when this happens as if it's detecting it for the first time)

Really, really annoying. Cuts the Sony boot logo and jingle in half.

I wonder is there a way to force it to downscale 480i?

Retr0gamer

One of the benefits of the retrotink is that it handles resolution switches seamlessly so that shouldn't be happening. The retrotink should be outputting at a constant resolution so if the TV is changing then something is up.

I've recently brought my first box of stuff out of Sauron's lair. Might be able to test my PS1 is I can find a PS1 game and it's still working.

Colonel Panic

Did you change any of the output buffering options, Oisin?

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628019#Comment_120628019

You'll have to stick up some photos of the contents of your Mordor boxes - sure it'll be like you're getting it new all over again.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629902#Comment_120629902

I have not touched output buffering options at all, no - reckon that might help with the issue?

I must upgrade my firmware actually, I think I'm still running a pre Christmas version.

Retr0gamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630945#Comment_120630945

It's actually a bit overwhelming as I've a load of other stuff to try and put away so the games are way down on my list. Also realised that I might have the consoles but the wires are in another box..

Colonel Panic

No, I was thinking changing the buffering would've possibly hurt things. The resolution changes should be hidden via buffering!

I don't have a PS1, so I could try with maybe Resi 2 on the N64, it's got a load of resolution changes.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120631062#Comment_120631062

And then the controllers in another box... on the plus side, hopefully it's the last time you ever have to move all your gear. Soon to be enjoyed in it's final resting place.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120631068#Comment_120631068

Ah I see! yeah I'm basically running it stock 'as is' apart from playing about with some post processing bits like the CRT shaders.

Have read around a bit and a lot of folks seem happy enough with their 5X handling different resolutions over the one signal, so it must just be my TV.

It's a five year old Sony LED so it might be about time to treat myself and upgrade to one of those LG OLEDs folks seem to be banging on about!

remoteboy

Hi folks. I have a small retro console collection - Coleco, NES, Megadrive, N64, GameCube, Xbox - plus some newer stuff - Wii, Wii, WiiU, PS3, Xbox360 - and an old Spectrum and C64.

I have an old 14” CRT which is too small for my aging eyes. The retrotink looks amazing but a bit of a reach financially right now. Looking through Adverts to see if there are any old TVs I could pick up on the cheap. Is there anything I should look for or be wary of - eg 100hz?

o1s1n

Has anyone else tried running Final Fantasy IX through the Retrotink 5x and managed to get it looking nice?

I had my first case of 'damn, I really wish I had a CRT to play this on' this evening when giving it a go. Other PS1 games have looked great, but there's just something about the combination of a lot of detail in this game at low resolutions that looks like ass when blown up on a big TV, even with post processing bits and bobs added.

L1011

This video is potentially interesting here - main board replacement for last-gen CRTs. Provides a NTSC/NTSC-J/PAL/SECAM compatible composite input and RF tuner (various PAL sound systems are shown, BG/I/DK anyway) that can be swapped on to many 'recent' CRTs.

Obviously not much use for RGB input unless there are headers on the board for that. I wouldn't be surprised considering last gen CRT tech was sold in France which required SCART, but its not obviously exposed.

Regardless of no RGB, this could be a useful swap on a small/mid sized CRT to give you NTSC/NTSC-J support when you need a CRT - lightguns basically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoqflFfvkR0

McDermotX

https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/retrotink-4k

750 dollars

o1s1n

Case design is much nicer and I see they've put the scart socket in the correct orientation this time with the cable side facing the back of the unit rather than th efront.

Still disappointing to see the scart is on the side though, it would make more sense to have the component sockets on the side and scart on the back as scart puts a lot more pressure on ports when it's in any way not in the back of a unit.

I suppose it's made in the US so most folks will be using component there.

Crazy price though, I'll be sticking with my 5X I think! I see they have some EU distributors now which is great as you'd get stung for some amount on importing something that's 750 USD from the US.

Retr0gamer

The crt filter looks incredible on it but that's some price to pay.

McDermotX

Some wedge alright......all things considered, you're up to a grand before you have it in your hand if you end up importing. Lot of the good cables and stuff, you'd already have if you're coming from the 5X, which already does a stellar job. But there has to be a point of value and return.

Its better, no doubt about it, but there's more than a few desirable items coming to community over the next while......likes of the MarsFPGA could well be similar in cost (though if either managed some form of EU distribution, that would be sweet. 700-750 dollars would be more manageable though the VAT will have to be accommodated along the way). Already have some money put into the Checkmate Displays so might sit this one out until that delivers, and by then, a lot more will be known about the Retrotink.

o1s1n

It's interesting to see it at a similar price point to the MarsFPGA alright, definitely feel like you're getting more bang for your buck with MARs.

One interesting feature of the TINK 4K is the HDMI input feature. Means you could run a MiSTer through it. That'd be some combo on an OLED.