Afghanistan

Sam Russell

Why were the USA so consumed with Afghanistan, and not Tibet? Or with Saudi Arabia? Or currently with Hong Kong?

There are plenty of rogue states in the world to pick to sort out - they just have to pick the ones that they can actually sort out - and the ones that are worth sorting out (for the USA economy - or at least those USA billionaires that can profit from it).

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788064#Comment_117788064

No ,I prefer to criticise the obvious mistakes that have been made in our name.

And now is hardly the decent or opportune time to be making plans for Afghanistan especially when our credibility is at rock bottom and there is the small matter of evaluating our "allies" within ,what is it about 10 days.

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788300#Comment_117788300

Pipelinestan basically.

BorneTobyWilde

You can't win a war in this PC world. They knew who the Taliban were, and their members, but they just let them be, as they were silent, and non threatening while the US was there, at least most were.

You only wipe out an infestation by killing them all off. You can't just set one mouse trap for the one in the Kitchen, and let the rest in the house run free.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117789710#Comment_117789710

Unfortunately genocide has been a big No No forever ,

Till you take Pakistan and Saudi out of the equsion you might have a chance ,the Taliban will keep coming along as Pakistan keeps sending men and offering them safe haven they will keep coming.take away opium they next biggest funds come from foreign investors who believe in the Taliban ways .

agoodpunt

This guy might have a go?

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/do-not-want-war-what-massoud-said-on-panjshir-resistance-deal-with-taliban-101629650481962.html

amandstu

Think we are getting a bit off off topic.

Should the West be supporting the remaining anti Taliban region that seems to be squaring up to them ?

Does getting out "cleanly" mean cutting them adrift ( we do have form in this area) , or do we see them as a pawn to keep some leverage in the region (or do we even see it as partial atonement for our reckless behaviour.)?

I have no real knowledge of this faction and whether or not they have been a positive influence in Afghanistan over the past while.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117788300#Comment_117788300

Probably because the governments of Tibet and Saudi Arabia weren’t hand in hand with an organisation that hijacked four planes and flew them into buildings in New York and Virginia, killing nearly three thousand people.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798159#Comment_117798159

Pakistan was the one that helped Osama bin Laden hide, and also helped the Taliban regroup. Saudi money funded the Al Qaida and Taliban.

Osama bin Laden was a Saudi. His family were given special clearance to depart the USA after the 9/11 attacks when no flights were allowed to operate.

No explanation for that last point has ever been given.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117798945#Comment_117798945

Bin Laden fled to Pakistan after he was chased out of Afghanistan, I think it is a stretch to say Pakistan “helped” him to hide.

it wasn’t Saudi money that funded al Qaeda and the Taliban, it was Osama Bin Laden’s money. He was one member of a very large and very wealthy family, which is why the US agreed to evacuate the 32 Bin Laden family members out of the US. I don’t think it is much of a stretch to believe that their lives were at risk simply for having the same family name as the man who has just claimed responsibility for murdering 3,000 US residents.

Sam Russell

That is a rose tinted version of the narrative.

The bin Ladens were the ONLY people to leave the USA by plane in the days after 9/11. A fact that has yet to be explained.

The tribal areas of Pakistan were the home to the Taliban for the last 20 years.

And so on.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803269#Comment_117803269

Not only that, Bin Laden publically stated several times in September that month that he and his organization was not involved so were the idea of their life being at risk from an American group trying to kill them is revisionist at Trump level. <snip> (unsubstantiated/speculative comments removed) The same Saudi family that has actively been sponsoring extreme versions of interpretation the Koran via Wahhabism which lead to Al Quida etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117803269#Comment_117803269

Which bit is rose tinted?

Sam Russell

I think the US Marines killed in Kabul is very bad news for Biden and Americans in general. A terrible outcome.

I hope those Irish citizens still waiting to get out do in fact get out.

A dreadful outcome all round, but mostly for women and girls left to the horrors to come.

The whole Afghanistan outcome is a disgraceful and damning legacy of President Donald Trump's handling of the 'war on terror'. He has more than 50 percent blame. President Bush 20% Obama 20% Biden 10%

EDIT: President Donald Trump treated the war in Afghanistan as another

Political Football

Strumms

The war in Afghanistan has cost the US according to official figures $822 billion.

$822,000,000,000

about 2,500 US troops / military killed.

Afghan police / military killed about 66,000

Afghan civilians killed about 48,000

Taliban forces killed 51,191

aid workers killed 444

journalists killed 72.

after 20 years, the US gave up, no means to bring about peace.

reading / typing that and it’s astonishing, heartbreaking, extremely worrying... not only for Afghanistan as a country but the wider world. What happens next ?

Sam Russell

What happened after they left Vietnam? That country appears o be doing OK.

Their long term sanctions against Cuba since 1959 is going to cause the collapse of the Cuba regime any day now.

Their attempts to control the various South American countries by fostering various dictators has led to thousands of migrants from those very countries trying to enter the USA illegally. If they had fostered better human rights and greater wealth equity then perhaps those migrants might have stayed at home.

They have allowed China a free hand despite the human rights issues that need international attention.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails. The USA has a massive industrial military complex that needs to be fed wars to justify their existence. This has been made worse by the privatised nature that has taken place over the last decade or so with US mercenaries acting for the USA which introduces the profit motive.

All USA casualties are heroes, and the other casualties are hardly counted.

beggars_bush

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117825564#Comment_117825564

does that include all the equipment they have just left behind?

Or the equipment they gave to the Afghan 'army'?

amandstu

@Strumms

"reading / typing that and it’s astonishing, heartbreaking, extremely worrying... not only for Afghanistan as a country but the wider world. What happens next"

Seems Biden is prescribing no more "Nation building"

Will treat Afghanistan the same as any other country where terrorist cells training camps are set up with or without the complicity of the standing government.

AMKC

I see the Taliban were able to fly one the helicopters left by America like WTF. An Apache I think it was. Why the hell would the Americans not have just flew it to one of there other airbases or even to Iraq or Israel?

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117833514#Comment_117833514

They will go back to the norm and live by whatever standards are imposed by the government of the day, that's what happened in Vietnam and that's what will happen in this case. America with the support of the EU tried to westernize Afghanistan and we failed. They will build a Country in whatever way they choose, we are gone but we should have never invaded with such force and try to make it a western democracy.

We have left and it unlikely be headline news for too long...

amandstu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834442#Comment_117834442

Well we know why they invaded.

Once on the ground it was probably worth attempting to support the democratic will of the population. (Genuine democracy is not a copyright of Western democracies but ,as Diana might have said there were three in this bed ;Afghanistan, Nato and Pakistan)

Still USA has burnished its credentials for hit and run.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834686#Comment_117834686

Biden was using the exact same language a few days ago "we will hunt you down" 20 years after Bush was saying "dead or alive" If USA want to kake a person out they should be able to do without telling the world first. I thin Europe needs to stand up to US on some principles on our doorstep but we allow to do pretty well as they please We are not totally innocent either...

NATO and UN pretty well do what US wants for me....

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834383#Comment_117834383

Early model Black Hawks are in the Afghan military inventory.

maestroamado

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117834383#Comment_117834383

Yes great idea give it to Israel (basically an American colony in Europe) so they could insert more pain on Palestine. I think the best thing US military could do is stay out of Europe/Asia policies but that cannot happen why Europe allow them do as they please. We supported them with Shannon as did the rest of Europe so we are also to blame for this mess... We are very good at blaming when we were part of it.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117818208#Comment_117818208

TDS mate. Trump arranged a withdrawal, the buck stops with the present administation ( and the alphabet agencies).

Lemming

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117843581#Comment_117843581

That so many were left behind is a failure of the current administration, and tbh, the State dept. & DoD under Trump also bear responibility for not beginning contingency planning as soon as they knew what was on the horizon. That said, whilst the Biden administration made a complete mess out of the withdrawal and also left it far too late to begin (kinda similar to what happened in Vietnam ... ), the majority of this is on Trump. He "negotiated" a withdrawal treaty with the Taliban that ultimately tied Biden's hands; had he [Biden] attempted to unilaterally breach that treaty, any future attempts at any sort of talks would be all the more difficult.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117864098#Comment_117864098

Is there any indication that the plan was directly driven by Trump himself. They have experts to actually negotiate. Had it not been negotiated, would a Biden admin who wanted to leaved have produced a different document? , and if so what would have changed?

Good loser

The Taliban didn't keep their side of the agreement. So no obligation on Biden to keep his side.

As far as I can tell, the Taliban did keep their side of the bargain, as did Biden.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870964#Comment_117870964

The Taliban continued with their attacks - even intensified them.

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117875272#Comment_117875272

You know that the Taliban and ISIS et al are different groups, right?

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117876224#Comment_117876224

Hadn't the Taliban taken over the country by August 15 or so?

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117879105#Comment_117879105

Yes and what exactly is your point? If you want to claim that it's the Talibans fault that an terror group goes on suicidal bombings in a country they have taken control over then you have to acknowledge that it's USA's fault that 9/11 happened as well. After all USA were in control of their own country at the time and in fact had been in control for hundreds of years at that point and hence they are responsible for 9/11 by that logic.

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117879474#Comment_117879474

Biden did not have to stick to the Trump deal, as the Taliban hadn't kept to their side of the bargain.

It would be easy to find a reason to vary the deal anyway. Didn't Boris want it extended?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117879105#Comment_117879105

They did, but at no time did the Taliban attack US, UN or Nato troops, as per the agreement.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117754024#Comment_117754024

Spoken like and Etonian wanker who thinks they know what's right for everyone else and not what's wrong with themselves.

How did the poem go...ah yes...

"If I were fierce and bald and short of breath, I'd live with scarlet majors at the base......"

You know how the rest of Sassoon's poem goes....should you ever care to read.

And upon us another late autumn. Poppies on television personalities, chimes at the cenitaph, flyovers with aircraft, moments of silence for the "fallen".

Not a single word for those they killed.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117770113#Comment_117770113

You're willing to kill millions of people because you think the laws of their land are anathema to the way YOU live.?

I would imagine that the granny in Herat or Kandahar doting over her little brood of squealing kids with their pet cat and catching a frog and eating apples at sunset would probably not agree with a bunch of disgusting apes from Fort Bragg kicking her door down, dragging her son away and killing him just to defennd her right not to wear a head-scarf that she wants to wear anyway.

There are nearly 2 million Iraqis dead because the scum in America wanted them dead. Weapons of mass destruction. I was in a bar on Long Island when the US started bombing Baghdad. People in the pub were cheering. I almost threw up at their sadism. High-fiving each other as every blast was shown on CNN.

These same people whine that when some tool comes back minus his legs or face or balls, then all of a sudden the "enemy" are so cruel. And how we're there to protect them. I even listened to a US Lieutenant complain in 2004 ....his words were "the way they fight us...it's just so SNEAKY".

Don't invade other people's countries and not expect them to fight back!!

The US is out of Afghanistan, tail between legs, humiliatied, defeated, useless and laughed at. US taxpayer will however be picking up the tab.

ShatterAlan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117870474#Comment_117870474

The Americans NEVER keep their side of the bargain so I wouldn't ever expect them to honour anything.

How many times have they fcuked their allies? America is like this big, fat sexy slut who gives a great blow job and European maggots love the cumshot and then comes the bill.

Sam Russell

It is not just the USA that were in Afghanistan. It was not just the USA that were in Iraq. It was not just the USA that were in Vietnam.

In none of those wars did they, or their allies, take an accurate (or any) count of the local causalities.

I wonder why?

Good loser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961515#Comment_117961515

That's way over the top. In international relations/war situations nobody's perfect but the US is more honourable than Russia, China and others.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964899#Comment_117964899

I doubt the people of Chile would agree over Pinochet and Allende.

Nor would most of South and Central America. Nor would the Palestinians.

Just because others are bad, really bad, does not justify being bad.