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  • 14-08-2021 4:47pm
    Registered Users Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭

    Sadly coming back to the very top of the agenda.

    What is in play / at stake here?

    Can we wash our hands of the situation?Is it just for them to work out ?

    Are we going to get ISIS mark 2 in short order that we (or whoever they wish to target ) cannot ignore?

    In my view the Taliban already control the country(just crossing the t's now.)

    A side thought ,if the loons and fanatics can take over the USA ,what hope is there for Afghanistan?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,253 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody

    Let me preface this with this is not politically correct but hear me out here.

    First of all Afghanistan is not a country, it's a set of fiefdoms by various warlords who war with each other and it is unlikely to ever become a country until they get a strong founding personality to drive it home via a dictatorship (and even that's doubtful). The central power makes Boris look like a paragon saint for being squeaky clean and honest. The Afghan war was a way for American government to donate billions up on billions to corporation that donated to them under the thin veil of "Kicking the brown beard wearing sheep shaggers in the balls" to the public cheered on by the meek sheeps in USA thinking they were getting revenge and got to be all alpha male on the world stage.

    The reality is Afghanistan is never going to change without strong inside influence and as a region, and country, it's no where near there. You only need to look up Pakistan and how they handle children for example. Ordinary men (such as bus drivers etc.) don't see it as a problem to rape 12 year old boys because they feel like it (and the Koran says it's not allowed) because they paid them afterwards and insists they are not gay nor pedophiles while married. Yes, there are youtube documentaries on the subject you can find that will scar you for life if you watch them. Heck, look at India and the rape of dalit children; India is a relatively modern country by comparison here. Hence there's a social root issue here that no invasion can solve short of literally depopulating the whole country side.

    Then there's the corruption piece; there's a reason why no one trusts the "government" in Kabul; their kleptomania along with warlords etc. is legendary and they see no problem with it themselves. The voters will of course switch every so often but honestly that's a social problem there to resolve rather than vote in another politican who simply does the same thing (and they needs to pay back the warlords for the support they arranged for them via bribes etc.).

    Note I've not even gone in about the question of Saudis and the twisted interpretation of the Koran etc. because honestly that's only gravy on top.

    So in short; yes Afghanistan (and the whole region in general) will remain a sore pain spot; yes there will be more attacks coming in new forms which will surprise but actually fixing it? Ha, not a chance in hell. This is a society problem in the bottom and that's not something a war etc. can fix. It will remain a black hole where Talibans will cut people heads off, help workers will go missing and government officials will be blown up; and there's nothing we can do about it short of a full depopulation to stop it. Welcome to the new world; it's the same as the old world except we're more cynical about it all. Oh and if you actually want to make a difference then stop smoking pot, take drugs etc. That's what they live on as income; but God forbid we in the western world would actually give up on that...

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,912 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1

    It's quite extraordinary, 100"s of Billions spent, 10"s of Thousands of lives lost and all it took was 13 days essentially for the Taliban to take back the country. The British, The Russians, the Americans and shockingly alot of European countries, tried and failed abysmally to control this country.

    There's no doubting how vile the Taliban are but even the most untrained eye coukd see Pakistan was propping up, protecting and supporting this odious group.

    I've not a clue what any next move could be but it certainly won't involve super powers foolishly thinking they can just move in and direct this countries future.

    Just a very sad and appalling situation for its citizens.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash

    One thing that is at play here is that it is setting up the next migrant wave to Europe. And unfortunately the young uneducated males from Afghanistan have the least in common with European values of anyone on earth - which will be problematic.

    So Europe has quite a lot at stake - and there will be the next populist pushback happening shortly in European politics.

    It certainly will become a hideaway for Islamic extremists - it was where Al Qaeda was based after all.

    I am less convinced than Nody that it is an "eternally hopeless" place - as Nody himself mentions the paedophilia/rape stuff happens in Pakistan & India - and those are sufficiently state like and if Afghanistan ended up like that, it would be a result. Furthermore until Russia intervened in Afghanistan, it did have a state.

    So yes there has been a failure- but it was not inevitable- although a durable result would have needed input from Iran, Pakistan and Russia.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,926 ✭✭✭✭

    It's about time the nut cases in America just stay out of global affairs.

    America just messes up everything jt touches.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭amandstu

    Exactly ,it would have been preferable had they just left Europe to the Nazis and solved the commie-Jewish problem at a stroke(sarcasm intended)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭amandstu

    Things moving on now.

    What do we think about standing with the Afghans who will find it a life sentence to live under the upcoming Taliban rule?

    Do we have a duty of care after we invaded (justifiably ,but still,) their country ?

    There will be some fleeing the country to save their lives.Do we offer them safe harbour?

    Or do we appease the Taliban?(that will be the Trump line )

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants

    Why werent the Taliban destroyed in the nearly 20 year campaign against them? Why do the US still do business with Saudi Arabia, one of the primary sources of financial and ideological support to the Taliban?

    Do you think there was too much money to be made by dragging it out and maintaining status quos? and if the Afghans love freedom so much, why did the Taliban find it so easy to assume power?

    We may never know.

  • Registered Users Posts: 150 ✭✭Gary Scrod

    They weren't destroyed because many crossed the border into Pakistan and laid low there, biding their time.

  • Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭NiceFella

    You can't destroy organisations like the Taliban by just killing them or occupation. Their mindset is like a virus that spreads to new generations so it becomes a complicated issue.

    The only way to pacify the situation is help build a stable nation in which terrorist dissenters are scorned and not tolerated.i.e they can defend themselves have an army.

    Like if the US actually cared for Afghan people why didn't they help train a militia and give them units to establish some stability. They spent billions playing a waiting game.

    As another poster says they will invariably have to sort it out themselves buy we should be helping them as much as we can in doing so. Other wise we will have an influx of new asylum seekers ill suited to our society and the potential issues that that can bring. Would like to see Europe do more here.

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,253 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody

    Because the goal was not to eradicate the Taliban; it was to give corporation donations via bloated war contracts while the sheep in USA stood around saluting the flag instead of question their leaders of why they are sacrificing American lives to donate cash to corporations (directly from their paychecks as taxes). The war was an excellent excuse to provide billions to buy missiles (it's well known you can't win a war with missiles and airstrikes but them "donations for elections" says otherwise), pay corporations to run camps, build roads, provide equipment, private security etc. The Taliban movement was simply the excuse of the country of choice.

    Secondly; Taliban are, where and will be funded by the drug trade. Saudis provide millions, drugs provide the billions. Saudis contribution is more in the religious trainers but the Taliban movement came out of the CIA funded operations to bleed the Russians back in the days and hence is not the root problem to what's there. Want to stop nut religions and movements? Stop the drug trade; but hey that would mean people can't take drugs and that be like against the constitution/bible or something.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant

    The current situation has had plenty of input from Iran, Pakistan and Russia. The supply of training, equipment and logistics has been flowing to the Taliban from these 3 for years.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Did you smash it

    If it wasn’t for America our part of the world would be a less safe place. You think Putin is scared of Germany, France’s or the UK’s military might? It’s the US role as Europe’s big brother that keeps the region safe and allows our governments spend money on things other than defence budgets.

    Europeans moaning about the US globalism are the ungrateful for the protection and freedom it affords us

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant

    The asylum seekers would be coming here whether there had been intervention or not. The west needs to learn to stay out of the business if other nations. Not everyone wants democracy, not everyone is suited to it. Some nations just aren't mature enough for it.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.

  • Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭Kewreeuss

    Why would there by a migrant wave of uneducated males coming to Europe? They are currently living in their own country, in their own culture - what changes for them? And if they are uneducated, they are totally immersed in their social and religious beliefs and what to us are barbarisms are normal everyday life. Then do we except only educated people? Only Females? What other moderate muslim countries are there?

    I tend agree that the whole war was a money making racket for the Americans and an attempt to be seen to do better than the Russians.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Reading about those little boys abused by Taliban members in the book The Kite Runner left me a bit of a basket case. 😥

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    The Afghan President has fled the country, with rumours saying to Tajikistan. Memes are against the Politics charter but if ever there was a valid case, the "that escalated quickly" one seems totally apt. Could anyone have seen this breaking down as quickly as it has?

    "Thoughts and prayers" style sentiments are cheap and trite, but my heart truly goes out to every woman and girl in the country. Christ anyone who can't grow facial hair, or just takes joys from music, art, or anything.

  • Registered Users Posts: 45,535 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy

    It's not called the graveyard of empires for nothing. The Taliban were always going to come back into the picture as we're talking about a country that's not just years and decades behind, but probably centuries. The attempt to modernise it externally by imposing foreign values was never going to succeed. A country can only properly do that when there is a will from within.

    It was an experiment doomed to fail, and the only question was how long American governments were willing to put up with it. The manner of the withdrawal looks haphazard and dangerous, so I'm sure they could have handled it better. But there were no easy answers to this mess.

    'It is better to walk alone in the right direction than follow the herd walking in the wrong direction.'

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash

    Yes indeed- and you can't try to build a workable Afghanistan while it is being undermined by all its neighbours

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash

    Taliban takeover isn't great for the economy. It will be difficult for Europe to keep them out - once here, they can't be deported ( you can't send them back to the Taliban) and Europe's borders are long and if thousands are massing and breaking through the fences, what do you do? Start machine gunning?

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp

    Just to reinforce the seismic horror this development brings to literally half the population, The Guardian (*) ran a perspective piece from a woman in Kabul. Again, it's heart breaking, even if calling it thus feels cheap and trite.

    (*) I know The Guardian is hated by some but while its editorials border on self parody, the actual reporting can be insightful IMO.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,204 ✭✭✭partyguinness

    Well, the situation playing out in Afgahistan is the least surprising news of the centur.

    As the Taliban said 20 years ago to the US: "You can never win and for one simple reason- you will eventually have to go home. We will just scatter to the mountains and come out when ready." Going into Afghanistan and bombing it in 2001/2002 was the easy part. No problem rearranging the rubble.

    Biden's decision is 'couregous'. He knows full well that it makes absolutely eff all difference if the US stay there another 6mts, 5 years or 50 years. May as well cut your losses and leg it. Utterly pointless staying there a minute longerr. Pointless war with a whole pile of pointless deaths but at least the US war machine got richer.

    I find the pearl clutching and faux outrage from world leaders quite hilarious. If they are that up in arms then go on then- you go in a sort it out.

    Afghanistan is a primatve backward shithole. Let them at it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 443 ✭✭TP_CM

    Is this the final proof of just how much upset and destruction the US army etc caused to innocent civilian life during their time there? I can't buy the idea that an army capable of reclaiming an entire country in weeks was just scattered out in the mountains for 20 years. Surely they have been recruiting and recruiting angry young men who were sick of how incompetent the US army was?

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster

    NZ are sending an airforce plane and some crew for A MONTH, to help get its citizens and local helpers out. I'm not quite sure how they think it's going to remain viable for that long to just waltz in and out as they please when Kabul has already fallen to the Taliban.

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,204 ✭✭✭partyguinness

    The US never had control. The US army has spent most of the last 20 years holed up in secure compounds. The narrative in the media is that this is some sort of massive lightening surprise. No it is not. Taliban have known for years that the US was winding down and they prepared accordingly. The Afghan Army know which side their bread is buttered and they have no interest. The Taliban have been in control of large swathes of the country for years.

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach

    For historical context, when Afganisthan has been relatively quiesent has been when neighbouring countries could impose indirect rule by a mix of quick military strikes and bribery. The latter seems to have worked best. To long as the Tailban get their Danegeld in the form of "humanitarian assistance" then this is one route to a more favourable scenario - at least for the outside world.

  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus

    At this stage, the Taliban just want to be left alone to solidify their control of the region. It's why they stood outside Kabul instead of pushing in, it's why there have been no pitched battles. They've learned that if you poke the bear, the bear bites back. They will let foreign citizens and aid workers in and out as long as is necessary. It won't impact their plans or ability to take over.

    I saw a stat today that the median age in Afghanistan is just 18. Which means that for a majority of the population, the Taliban are basically unknown, the population weren't alive or don't remember the original Taliban rule from 1996 to 2001.

    Which means that not only will there be no inkling of an internal resistance against the Taliban, but with such a young population they are wide open to be indoctrinated into accepting Taliban rule and ideology, leaving a very dark future for the people of Afghanistan.

    The only possible silver lining is that it likely means the bulk of Taliban forces are also young men who were not part of the previous rule. So they may have a more progressive outlook on things. They may be motivated mostly by nationalism and self-determination rather than Islamic supremacy. However, the Taliban leaders are probably much older, more conservative men, who are well adept at convincing younger men of the "right" way to do things.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40

    Like everyone else I'm appalled at the images coming out of Afghanistan.

    The numbers of Taliban fighters seem relatively small how is it possible for them to over run a country if there is not significant popular support.

    I'll admit I don't know enough about the country that's why I'm asking the question here rather than other forums to avoid the blatantly racist answers.

    So what sort of support will the Taliban receive from the people, will it be purely based on fear and oppression.

    Is there a possibility that the new Taliban regime will be less cruel than previous.

    This is obviously a disaster for many especially Women, but is there any hope of even a Saudi style country emerging. Small consolation I know.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants

    Iran? Seriously? The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has been at the root of the Taliban for years.

    Why do American apologists have such an issue with stating the obvious, and run to blame their other "bogeymen" instead? The US "Literally" negotiated a peace with the Taliban, handing back Afghanistan to them. This would appear to be what the vast majority of Afghans want - rightly or wrongly, but that is their decision.

  • Registered Users Posts: 343 ✭✭markw7

    Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis is an eye-opening watch on the plight of Afghanistan through the last 80 years or so. Not an easy watch for most people like the majority of his stuff, but well worth it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Fiery mutant

    Yeah, seriously. And I never said Saudi have never had a hand in it. My point being that the 3 countries named in my post have been actively trying to undermine the US position there for years. Just like the US did when the Soviets were in there.

    I'm not an apologist for the US, just stating it as I see it.

    We should defend our way of life to an extent that any attempt on it is crushed, so that any adversary will never make such an attempt in the future.