Neighbour WhatsApp groups.

The Darkroom

Hi, currently live in a housing estate where there's a WhatsApp group. I used to belong to it but about two years ago removed myself from it because of the misuse of it.

The problem is it's being used by neighbours to vent anger at other neighbours often defaming them in a way prior to discussing the issue one to one with the neighbour. Obviously some people are afraid of confrontation with others even for minor things so it's understandable but I'm having report from others that me and my kids are often mentioned and being blamed for things they didn't do. I've no longer access to the group so I'm unable to verify myself the content being discussed.

Are groups like this even legal? If they Are is what I'm talking about a misuse of them and would a Garda investigation into the activity of the group be worth the bother?

Caranica

Are you actually serious? What goes on in groups is exactly what goes on in conversations over the walls, in one to one texts, in pubs, has gone on from the beginning of time. Putting it in writing isn't clever but there's no way the Gardai would give this the time of day.

GBX

100% legal. As Caranica says, its no different to neighbours having a bitch and moan over a coffee in somebody's house.

The Darkroom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117742595#Comment_117742595

What I'm indicating at though is if it's being used to defame and harass others? Harassment and defamation is surely illegal?

Wheety

Ask one of the admins to add you back to the group. The people bitching about you won't do it if you're in the group.

The Darkroom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743224#Comment_117743224

Yes, I agree. I understand it's fine to bitch and moan about another persons behaviour, but to attack and misrepresent another person on a public forum such as that is inappropriate in my opinion. It's like you have no personal life and you're all roomies or something. It's not my cuppa tea at all but as others have rightly pointed out hardly illegal. The concern is only when such a platform is used to bully others and even call you racist names etc etc. That's why I suggested if whether or not the presence of the Garda would be worth the bother? Thanks for the comment. I'm objective and open to correction on this.

Mrs OBumble

GDPR ...

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743305#Comment_117743305

What aspect of the legislation are you referring to?

billyhead

Could there not be a case for defamation here if evidence can be provided?

Gary Scrod

Can you share some example please, OP?

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743567#Comment_117743567

Only if they can provide they have suffered a loss/hardship as a result. I had CCTV footage of being defamed and was told not to waste my time and money

hierro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743305#Comment_117743305

Why throw the GDPR grenade in there and walk away? How do you believe a GDPR regulation has been breached here?

OP, your allegation has gone from suggestions you or/and your kids have done wrong to harassment to racial abuse in line with the dismissal of your suggestion the Gardaí have a role here....

My suggestion is that you tell whoever told you what was posted in the WA group that there's a reason you left the group and you couldn't care less what's said in it and you don't want to know what's in it.

Creamy Goodness

[quote]Why throw the GDPR grenade in there and walk away? How do you believe a GDPR regulation has been breached here?[/quote]

You must be new to Mrs OBumble's posts, usually OTT way of solving the problem with the bluntest instrument available and in this case not even remotely applicable.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743305#Comment_117743305

I'd really really really love to hear the GDPR angle. Please please pleas enlighten us with an aspect of GDPR that no-one else seems to know about.

For the OP, dangerous ground by both the person operating the group and those who might be flinging mud as if its harmful and untrue, then defamation is what it is.

Nothing to do with the gardai unless there is hatred / suggestions of harm.

I'd maybe ask someone friendly who is in the group to send you screen grabs. But there are 3 things that should apply to these groups

1 - Rules telling people it is for security / other estate specific issues and not for directing any personal attacks whatsoever to any other resident and not for unsubstantiated rumors or gossip and that a third warning against these leads to automatic deletion from the group.

2 - One of the controllers who applies the rules and does the deletions should not be connected to the estate and not known except to the other admins. Or have a community garda as a member (you'd be surprised at how mannerly people will become)

3 - Put the alerts on silent for all time.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743650#Comment_117743650

It is public as members of the public can join if they conform to certain requirements. And of course it can be bullying if it causes someone to do something that affects you as a result of mis-information.

Defamation rules here are very wide for interpretation. Sending an email to someone and saying something false about a 3rd party is defamation of that 3rd party and that can be very costly.

JimmyVik

Im really sick of people who nothing about GDPR just saying GDPR in reply to anything data related.

OP, these whatsapp groups are all over the place. As someone said earlier, get yourself added into it and the talk about you will stop.

I know someone who winds people up in a whatsapp group about someone else and then sends screenshots of the conversations to people in other groups they got them to bad mouth.

Then a few days later they screenshot in the opposite direction.

And as for the class parents whatsapp group in my kids classes. Jesus what a bunch.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743159#Comment_117743159

Defamation is a civil matter. Hire a solicitor if you want to go down that road, but I hope you've got some deep pockets.

Gardaí will investigate harrassment, but how do you imagine the opening conversation going? "Someone told me that someone on a WhatsApp group is saying mean things about me"? The best approach to a resolution is unlikely to have any legal aspect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743726#Comment_117743726

I'd really really really love to hear the GDPR angle

Is the OP entitled to the ask for the texts under GDPR like you can ask a company do they have records on you? If they are a residents association aren't they a group as distinct fromindividuals and does GDPR apply to such a group. would the texts be a form of record about the OP? EDIT i see not Res Ass sorry

Also the OP could complain to whatsapp about the use of the app, may be something in the T&Cs

https://www.newstalk.com/news/whatsapp-responds-gaa-calls-clubs-stop-using-958881 is about GAA clubs

"If a club basically sets up a fundraising group on WhatsApp, there could be about 100 people in that WhatsApp group within the club.

"Fifty or 60 may not know each other, may not have each other's numbers.

"And then suddenly once the club puts them all into the same WhatsApp group they have their phone numbers, their name and their photograph shared with everybody else in the group without ever giving their consent to do so".

The OP has not given consent but his name is being shared as i understand it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745082#Comment_117745082

WhatsApp claim to be the data controller but also claim that they don't have access to the groups. Best thing is to rejoin the group or get someone who is in the group to screen shot it.

I don't buy the you can't be defamed on WhatsApp, it seems no different than pamphleting the local area with defamatory statements about someone. Surely if someone was doing that it would be both defamatory and harassment.

The gaurds would have some smirk on your face if you went to them. I think your allowed to make phone calls or send text messages bitching about people as well 🤣

Maybe they'll all meet up for a coffee and bitch about you 🤣

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745143#Comment_117745143

And I don't buy GDPR doesn't apply. WhatsApp claim to be the data controller

wouldn't the group be the data processor?. i think they need consent

OP ask the DPC what the situation is

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745143#Comment_117745143

You absolutely can be defamed on WhatsApp. The gap between someone making a defamatory statement and obtaining a court judgement of defamation is Grand Canyon-esque. And that canyon needs to be filled with money to cross it

Get Real

Neighbours have been moaning, gossiping and telling lies about one another since the dawn of time. Its human nature.

You can't stop people being part of a WhatsApp group.

If there is any serious defamation occurring, you'll need to engage a solicitor and pursue it through the civil courts and seek damages-defamation is not a crime, and therefore not a Garda matter.

Attempting to seek damages or pursuing a defamation case, for neighbourhood gossip, is not imo worth the effort, time or expense. And that's even if there has been any defamation in the first place.

People talk sh1t. It's a fact of life. You can let it consume you, or choose not to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745370#Comment_117745370

That’s a pity. The Irish constitution says that the good name of a person is protected. Maybe it just means the rich. In practice.

id assume though if the defamation were serious enough (ie pedophillia) you’d have a case. Is it that’s there’s no money in if for the lawyers? Are costs not being awarded?

Peregrinus

Costs will be awarded if you win.

But a defamation action is hazardous. Assuming we get around the evidentiary problem and you can prove, say, that Joe Bloggs posted (falsely) that you were a convicted murdered, and assuming you can prove you suffered damage as a result (e.g. you lost your job - lets make things clear and simple) you have two choices.

1. Just sue Joe Bloggs. If you can prove the above you'll win. But how much money has Joe Bloggs got to pay your award of damages plus your legal costs? Is Joe Bloggs worth suing? In general you should be very hesitant about suing an individual who isn't covered by insurance, and very few people have defamation insurance.
2. Sue Joe Bloggs [i]and WhatsApp[/i], since it is WhatsApp who received Joe's statement and then distributed it to scores or hundreds of people. They published a defamatory statement about you; it doesn't matter that they weren't the authors of the statement; if you defame somebody it's no defence to say that you were only repeating something that somebody else said to you. Because WhatsApp has lots of money they are worth suing but, because WhatsApp have lots of money, they can afford to fight this tooth and nail, and to appeal and appeal again. And they will, because your action against them threatens their whole business model. And they can comfortably outspend you on lawyers and court cases.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117743305#Comment_117743305

It's health and safety gone mad

Victor

"Neighbours have been moaning, gossiping and telling lies about one another since the dawn of time. Its human nature."

Yes, this is true, but it doesn't make it right. However, what is important about social media is that it is visible to many people for an extended period.

Dempo1

I'm just curious why anyone would even want to be part of a neighbourhood WhatsApp group in the first place.

Text alert systems in rural Ireland where I live are the norm. I personally would not for a second get involved with a WhatsApp group with people who are essentially stranger's albeit neighbours.

I've lived in my home 20 years, I've a few neighbors, I'm pleasant, wave, occasional chit chat (mostly Shyte talk), I know, NONE of their first names.

Text alerts generally deal with reporting suspicious activity locally, perhaps a burglary locally, accidents, Major road works (a rarity) in rural Ireland etc. Absolutely no chit chat, gossip, discussion about someone's hedging or knickers hanging out on a clothes line etc.

joeguevara

if you feel that you or your kids are being badmouthed to your locale then stand up to the alleged perpetrators. You message that you have been told about false accusations but not once have you said you saw the WhatsApp messages. If it was me I’d tell these oracles of knowledge to stfu.

Moving on from the first issue, what in heavens name is being alleged that you immediately pole vault into defamation. To denigrate a persons good name that they are subject to hatred, ridicule or contempt is tough work. Kids hanging around (using an example of what is possibly on a WhatsApp group) smoking amber leaf and drinking flagons of linden village wouldnt make them the subject of ridicule or hatred .Similarly skating on the steps or damaging flowers with a football not the same:

so, these messages would have to have some salacious messages .cooking meth, operating a brothel, badger bating etc and not double parking.

And if you got over all of the above steps, you would have to show an actual financial impact/loss. You haven’t mentioned any loss of revenue or loss of employment roles etc. In fact all you have said is that someone has messaged something that you haven’t seen, and indeed you didn’t deem it important enough to specify what the defamatory statements were.

And even if you leapfrogged all of the above steps, the legal costs of a defamation car are Fcucking crazy and it’s all upfront. No no foal no fee and it’s actually such a subjective tort that it’s pig in a poke. If someone is saying something about you or your family approach them and make it clear that it is unacceptable and you will not accept it continuing.

Reati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745964#Comment_117745964

A person I work with can't wait to get into these groups.

The minute they move into a new area they are joining all the whatsapp groups or Facebook groups. Getting involved with all the neighbors.

It always struck me as weird as they aren't "people" people or social butterflies but I nowadays 100% think it's for the gossip.

GingerLily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745964#Comment_117745964

Loads of reasons;

-Recommendations for services and tradesmen

-Comparing Internet providers and checking coverage

-Free cycle

-Querying suspicious behaviour

-Warning of burglaries

-Pets lost and found

I keep mine muted but it's been really useful to me, especially during lockdown.

For my estate, they made everyone admin ages ago to make sure no one "controls" it and its not considered part of any residents association.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746011#Comment_117746011

Have to agree, I just find it extraordinary, whatever about being on social media platforms generally but inviting your neighbours in your personal space just really strange.

I'm in a work WhatsApp group and it's been on mute for about 4 years, the Shyte on it is just bizzare, rarely work related, mostly unamusing codswallop, I've not actually posted or responded to a single post.

Sure I use WhatsApp with personal and close friends, a bit of craic etc but neighbours 🤔 not on your nelly 😉

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746020#Comment_117746020

I can see some merits but most easily covered in a text alert system. My point I suppose is a WhatsApp group as you mention can and do become a free for all and open to abuse and malicious gossip.

Just in relation to the lockdown, we did have a community group with volunteers to assist with deliveries for vulnerable people, managed from local Post office/ supermarket again managed entirely through the text alert system.

GingerLily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746044#Comment_117746044

There is no drama though, that stuff tends to happen in private chats.

Most people know its a bad look to out yourself publicly as an asshole.

Also we don't have community text alerts, not sure how common they are?

But you do what works for you :)

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746056#Comment_117746056

I'm sure your own group is fine but I guess based on this thread, not always the case. Text alert systems seem to be more a rural thing, I'm originally from Dublin, have lived in Midlands for 20 years and very common here, most areas also have prominent road signage to highlight there existence.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058203631/neighbour-whatsapp-groups

You are going to call the Gardai to investigate a neighbourhood watsapp group? I very much doubt the platform is been used to bully anyone. The groups are for sharing information and for connecting with people in the neighbourhood who maybe work difficult hours etc. The real gossip is done face to face and never in these groups. If you don't have access to the group then why are you making accusations about what is discussed?

If you don't have access and are not part of it why do you care what is been said in them?

They are a valuable resource for a lot of people and make it easier to stay in touch with the local area without having to go to mass and stand down the back. If people dont want to join they dont have to.

If you do try and maybe you do get it shut down, it will be backup & running in a couple of days under another name.

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117745964#Comment_117745964

Well a big part of it is most people I know find the text alert thing useless.

There's a black VW Golf accting suspiciously in the area, selling stuff, etc.

With what's app an image is shared instantly with people.

With text alert you normally don't get notified until the car is gone out of the area.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746202#Comment_117746202

Just wondering what are the legalities around sharing such an image anywhere.

If useless describes a dramatic decrease in burglaries in my own area, primarily led by the use of text alert systems, which also involve local Gardai, so be it, but many would disagree completely, including me.

Caranica

If such an image is taken in a public place it's almost certainly legal to share it.

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117746306#Comment_117746306

I don't really know to be honest.

Sometimes it's just what people just type the suspicious behavior they see.

I think the Gardai put a lot more work into operation Thor(I think) and similar operations which helped reduce robberies/etc.

Personal I think people are more vigilant and security cautious now also.

I just find text alert a very slow system.

We're not helping the OP either with is having this discussion.