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Dublin Bus tables conditional pay offer of 12%

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Long breaks are exactly for the reason to rest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭drivingmissdaisy


    where do the drivers rest?

    I like every other driver who does not live close to city center has roamed Dublin's streets trying to kill a 4 hour break, i have been in every museum in the city multiple times, have seen all the sights Dublin has to offer, and i have zero interest in doing the same again.

    Now we have a poster saying he could go home for 3:45 hours of a 4 hour break, and they see no problem with this, and truth be told either do the driver who currently choose to do bogies , as they are in the same position, its the drivers who dont live near city center who have issue.

    Then we have the hero who did 12 hour shifts for 11 years, they suited him fine until they didnt, would bet money they where not 12 hour shifts for 5 days in a row, most likely did 3 or 4 days and had 3 or 4 days off, they also neglect to state was this the shift they knew they would be doing when they started the job?

    Big difference in living close to the job and signing up for a 12 hour shift and you can be home in 15 minutes and those who live 100+km away and currently work on a 9 hour shift and have been told you will be working a 12 hour shift under new terms, well the drivers old and new have said no.

    How could this be resolved? Easy, separate the bogies onto their own roster and let whoever like them sign up , thats the way bogies are currently marked in, but the NTA think they know better, and they got a total rejection in the vote.

    The same with the night shifts, once they made them voluntary the had zero problem filling the positions, but clearly did not learn from this and are trying to ram bogies down drivers throats.

    Many of the posters either ignore or are ignorant of the fact that most of the problems they have with DB are either beyond the control of DB or decisions made by others that impact the bus service, now i find that very disappointing on a bus enthusiast forum, no shame in admitting you don't know something and seeking out an answer., but no you lash out in ignorance at DB, most of the issues are simple and not some big conspiracy that some think it is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    long breaks are not required and are unnecessarily increasing shift times.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Cinema. Some offer unlimited movies for less than 25 Euro a month, some offer lower prices etc. Pick any movie and have a nap like Japanese people do during the day. They are having a good nap on the buses, trains, in the theaters... Otherwise, read a book in a library, study something, give some food for brain (learn something: languages, do crosswords...). What would you do at home with family? Gossip, complain and scroll Facebook half ear listening to wife and kids?

    Of course, the last sentences aren't targeted to you, I'm more likely ironically talking about anyone else ;)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    I'd agree to make around 10 hour standard shifts with included 1 hour break for lunch and short breaks (between 5 to 30 mins) after each trip to catch up a timetable. But only if salaries were reduced. These DB drivers are too expensive and complain too much. Passengers don't want to pay even more for already expensive bus tickets. Government currently need money for a broken health system and for future PT plans.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    if you hate it so much and consider it awful why do you still do it?


    and why the **** would you live 100km plus from your workplace. Only a masochist would do that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭drivingmissdaisy


    LOL, if you ask this I can only imagine you still live at home with mammy and daddy. The roads in and out of Dublin are rammed with commuting workers at rush hour, the prise of houses is crazy in Dublin, people are forced to move to be able to afford a home.

    The job with 8 hours work and 1 hour break , like most jobs is what we currently have and it’s what we want to keep, that’s what we all knew the job was when we first started, now they want to change it, they can advertise it as 12 hour shifts and all potential new recruits who think this is fine can work under this contract, but those currently there want nothing to do with 12 hour shifts.

    We all know they will struggle to get drivers in on these terms and keeping them will be a issue, but the haters ignore this and claim it’s all good. 😂😂😂😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭drivingmissdaisy


    Got to be a troll or you have not got a clue how buses run, Short 30minutes breaks after each run to catch up on timetable. 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Plenty doing it. Very expensive to live in Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    dublin bus drivers aren't expensive, they are similar to GAI and any of the other operators staff who could potentially end up operating some PSO routes, who will have pay, terms and conditions parridy or similarity brought into their operations, similarity being the most likely.

    4 hour breaks would be a waste of everyone's time, unnecessarily extend shifts and the work day and make the running of buses inefficient.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Why do you think there are such shifts?

    Hint: think about the peak times of passenger demand for bus services on a weekday.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    "LOL, if you ask this I can only imagine you still live at home with mammy and daddy."

    not for over 15 years actually. I've lived in 11 different properties since moving out, 3 of which i have owned and never lived more than 8km from where I work because I have no interest in wasting my life commuting.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    I don't know the particulars in Dublin, talking through experience in other cities. Some cities have 7mins only, and if driver is late, they can even loose lunch breaks and have to continue driving.

    Instead being arrogant, you could have simply explained and provided the info I'm lacking to know the specific time in each end of the route. That wouldn't have ended the discussion at this point and show your genuine interest to discuss, rather than oppose in order to make someone look incompetent with the aim to make them silent. You need to learn how to discuss in a civilised manner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    I disagree that it's inefficient. The way I see this that there is 1 bus driven by 1 driver ar the most peak hours, hence the 4 hours break in the middle of the day when the passenger numbers drop.

    Imagine 1 bus driven by 2 drivers without a 4 hours break - that would mean two shifts, so two salaries and a waste of energy with more empty seats.

    Better is to use 1 driver and don't run buses empty when not needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    They're necessary, but it should be possible to mainly allocate them to drivers who want to do them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    There's no such a thing as want or don't want. Drivers aren't kids, nor this is a voluntary work. Drivers get a shift and do it - this is what they are getting paid for. Drivers should be cooperative and work for the company as a team, not to create a disturbance and problems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults




    I'm not sure why you have such a hard-line attitude towards working people. Really digging your heels in, and coming across as quite an unreasonable poster. The company should make an effort to provide its staff, wherever possible, with working patterns that suit their lifestyles. Split shifts are an extremely attractive option for some people. They're the very opposite for others. That's an easy problem to solve. And I'm sure it will be solved too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    How would you solve this problem? Split shift requires 2 drivers. I agree it's a handy option, but pricey. More efficient is to use the juice from 1 person rather than comfort 2 and run buses less occupied off peak hours. I would agree with split shifts for reduced salaries though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Burt Renaults


    A split shift requires 1 driver. He/she starts at (for example) 6:30am. The first part of their shift finishes at around 10am. They then go home. They return to work at around 2 or 3pm and finish at around 7pm. If enough drivers want to work these hours, then there's no reason to compel others to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Oh gosh, sorry. Yeah, so these are good shifts because they are similar to purposed new shifts, covering peak and stop at off peak.

    I'm sure there will be normal 2 drivers shifts eg. 4-5am to 22-23pm, just not as many. They wouldn't have long breaks. However, imo drivers shouldn't have an option to pick the favourite shifts as we may end up with the same problem as now when the seniors have better shifts then the juniors who get stuck like that for years just to do a favour to the seniors who don't even thank for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭TranslatorPS


    I've avoided posting here for so long, but then I realized I have an account already. Whoops.

    You're making one wrong assumption here, @Citrus_8, but it's an assumption that I understand where it's coming from, given that I was equally mistaken up to five years ago.

    The Central/Eastern European scheduling method of creating a day-long 16-18-hour bus diagram and cutting it in two to make two shifts of about 7-9 hours each doesn't exist here. Your entire thinking method is flawed as a result.

    Dublin Bus shifts take one of the following two forms: either a longer shift which involves work on two different buses (although sometimes by accident it happens to be the same bus on the second half anyway) with a technically unpaid break in the middle, or a shorter shift that involves work on only one bus of up to six hours (called a 'workout'). On that note, Dublin Bus stipulates that no driver will work more than 5h30 on one bus without a break.

    Drivers take their breaks completely independently of their buses. Most of the times they simply leave the bus at a terminus, or hand it over to another driver to continue the trip. They can do whatever they want with their break time, and return to pick up their second bus. This construction method however leaves Dublin Bus with effectively four shift types: early, middle (aka reliefs), late, and a weird hybrid that can be a split but actually usually isn't - the bogey.

    The current agreement regarding Mon-Fri duties seems to be this: early duties do most of the morning pull-outs and finish by 4pm, relief duties start after 11am and finish by 10pm, late duties start after 2pm and are anything that finishes after 10pm, including all the last bus pull-ins. Bogey duties are a mixture of the last morning pull-outs and the first early car break covers, and finish by 8pm.

    Disclaimer: this graph illustrates the maximum start times and maximum finish times, not the maximum spreadovers! All duties but bogeys are capped at 9h59 spreadover, and bogey duties are capped at 12h spreadover.

    Anyway, as a result of this, if a schedule has a bus working from say 5am to 1am, it's very likely there will be five different drivers working the bus, if not even six. For a very extreme case, the Mon-Fri bus 32-39 is worked by eight different duties, spanning 21h10 out on the road (24-39 is on the road for 23h25 yet is worked by only seven drivers) - this bus works 39As only.

    Your suggestions of introducing Central/Eastern European-style shifts wouldn't ever be welcome simply because the workplace organization here is built so drastically different, and there isn't enough terminus space for so many buses to lay over during break times anyway. The practice of leaving the bus behind to be worked by somebody else is pretty much the standard across the British Isles to begin with.

    ----

    As for the "why aren't drivers skipping work sacked" question... well, it's bloody difficult to get sacked in DB. I know there are cases of drivers using their phones in the cab and being warned so many times and nothing is done, and that's one of the major safety hazards nowadays. Pretty hypocritical from a company so hard-driven on safety during the hiring process.

    ----

    I also want to highlight one thing that has been genuinely irritating me in this discussion - where in the proposed agreement did it ever mention that shift and bogey rotas would be mixed?!

    I realize that p. 19 lists the possible driver categories, but I'm under the distinct impression that this list of four items refers to six different rosters...!

    1. 5/7 shift roster and 5/7 bogey roster
    2. Static Sunday bogey
    3. Mon-Fri shift roster and Mon-Fri bogey roster
    4. 4-day week roster

    I mean, it's on DB for such ambiguity, but not for one minute do I imagine that they would mix shift and bogey rosters together when they've been separate for so long... Heck, even the previous page states that the current marked-in bogey positions will be maintained.

    Post edited by TranslatorPS on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    Amazing! This is one of the most useful posts in the thread. Very well explained.

    So, all this is due to drivers just being drama queens again?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    no, it isn't.

    it is that some drivers will end up with ridiculously long and unnecessary breaks where they will end up sitting around doing nothing as they are unable to go home, thus in turn extending their working day unnecessarily.

    that is not being a drama queen, that is just acting in common sense.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭TranslatorPS


    While I won't be surprised if there are some who are exaggerating the matter on purpose just for the sake of doing so, I feel that a lot of it is down to proper phrasing and proper explanations of the proposal that was being offered to them. Something is telling me that a lot of drivers never actually received a proper explanation of what the proposal literally entails.



  • Registered Users Posts: 322 ✭✭TranslatorPS


    I've more or less followed this discussion so far, and your major grip has always been bogeys being mixed with shift work.

    Can you therefore go back to my post from this morning, the one with the little graph, and address the last section? For the longest time I've been doubting DB all of a sudden mixing bogey and shift work on one roster, and I struggle to take your claims seriously, especially after being presented with a list of potential shift roster duties from Donnybrook a few pages back, where the poster claims that they are all duties under 10 hours. I honestly want to believe that page 19 of the proposed agreement is simply poor phrasing, as I can't really find anything else indicating potential roster mixing.

    Speaking of, @LastStop, is there any chance we could get those duty lists in better quality?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Citrus_8


    And yet they are "wise" enough to make a decision and vote for something what they believe they understand but actually don't? This is how Brexit started.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,415 ✭✭✭.G.


    Somebody new who knows what they're talking about comes along with a clear and concise explainer and all the bus drivers telling us it why it was terrible deal go missing!



  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭drivingmissdaisy


    You are embarrassing yourself now with a post like this, it only highlights how little you know about bus driving, (hint EU laws)



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,990 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    97% of the drivers voting against the deal is enough to say it's not a good one.

    the reason the bus drivers are missing is they are you know, working.

    the deal was crap, it was rejected.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭drivingmissdaisy


    5:45 for a work out

    The big problem is they want to create ONE big roster and all drivers work this roster, no more different rosters that driver gravitate toward as they suit their lives.

    It cant be any clearer, no more bogey, no more M-F, no more 4 day week, just ONE big roster with all drivers working every single duty in the depot on every route.

    Is there anyone here who still does not understand this and as to why drivers rejected this deal?



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