Advice regarding consumer rights claim vs Apple (on a MacBook Pro)

Dav010

I suspect it has more to do with the fact that within the first six months it is considered a fault present at purchase, after that, it’s a case of argument between you and the retailer over who caused the fault, if fingers are pointed at each other, the judge may quite rightly ask you to prove why you think it’s their fault rather than something caused by you. I don’t think anyone would expect a retailer to accept responsibility 4 yrs after purchase without asking for some proof of a fault. So you might be well advised to get an independent opinion on the fault for your visit to the court house.

Incidentally, Dermot Jewell is the policy advisor and former head of consumer affairs of the org I linked above. He is fiercely pro-consumer, so I could not imagine him allowing false information to be on their site.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938328#Comment_117938328

There is enough evidence to be found online without having to pay for an independent assessment

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938411#Comment_117938411

A fair point, but the op will be asking the judge to accept that his/her unit is faulty rather than someone else’s, and that it isn’t due to misuse. No doubt Apple will argue they have no knowledge of the fault as the op did not provide supporting information. We would all hope that judges don’t just take the opinion of one side in any dispute.

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938410#Comment_117938410

Potentially, but at the same time, for a very high value “pro” device with substantial evidence of a design flaw via many consumers with the exact same issue, you could surely argue down the device not being of merchantable quality route, as it has not been reasonably durable given the cost and description.

For devices which are not as expensive, there is less expectation of durability and so if you’re arguing with them after 3.5 years, you’d likely be expected to prove it was an inherent fault.

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938487#Comment_117938487

Also surely the evidence of a design flaw with the item is actually enough to prove it is not of merchantable quality nor fit for purpose, even without solid proof that this exact issue is stemming from that design flaw, even though there is strong likelihood that it is, given it is sharing the same symptoms as a typical problem with this flawed component of the device? The design flaw still exists in the model of the device, as per the body of evidence available surrounding the issue, written about on numerous highly reputable websites regarding repair of these devices.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938500#Comment_117938500

They are all valid points, having a MacBook Pro myself (though a little older than yours), I would be pissed off if I saw the same fault. But that does not change the fact that you are arguing design/manufacturing fault, while they will argue misuse. As you are suing them, they are within their rights apparently to ask you to prove your unit is defective and not abused. So, you have a choice, leave it to the judges sense of fairness, but taking the risk that if he/she applies the law and asks you to show proof that it is apples fault, or spend some money to get an independent opinion, thus arming yourself against their claim that you caused the problem.

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938529#Comment_117938529

That’s fair and I appreciate the advice you’re giving, but getting an independent report from an expert on Apple devices is neither cheap nor easy, as Apple are very strict on authorised repair dealers and these are all on Apple’s payroll, so won’t be independent. I don’t want to waste a lot of money when it might all be for nought. I am hoping to make enough of a case to the judge under the durability condition.

Ultimately though, there is no physical damage to the device, it is in extremely good shape for 4 years since purchase, no evidence of any drops, spills etc, no cracks or scratches on the screen. The videos and images I have of the issue occurring on my device make it very hard to argue this could be caused by the user in my opinion… it’s not something that physical damage would ever cause to happen, as the device goes from perfectly fine to having major screen artefacting, rather than just having some permanent damage. I hope the judge will agree with this, but ultimately, if he doesn’t, then it isn’t the end of the world, and I will have satisfied myself on principle, without throwing too much money down the drain.

Dav010

On a €3k laptop, no doubt you will be hoping for as close to the €2k max, it’s worth spending the cost of an independent opinion to support your claim. If they argue you caused it, or they have received nothing to support your claim, I don’t see how you can be confident of a successful claim. The link I provided supports Apple’s right to request the supporting evidence of a fault rather than misuse. Take for example, if an owner dropped a glass of water on a keyboard, that might not be visible externally, but it may well be internally.

I'm on your side on this, we have loads of Apple devices in the house, they are expensive bits of kit and we have had problems, some were faulty, but some were self inflicted.

rm212

An update on this. Hearing is coming very close and Apple’s solicitors have reached out asking to come to a settlement with me to avoid going to hearing.

First, they offered that if I withdraw the claim, they will inspect the device and if they judge it to have no accidental damage, they’ll repair it for free. They were also clear that the phone call was “without prejudice” and that they could not offer this in writing. I obviously refused as I said it would not be advantageous for me to withdraw the claim on a verbal promise from Apple, one where they could simply decide to say that they saw accidental damage and I would have no comeback on that without restarting the entire claim process.

They asked if I’d be willing to agree to the above if they could get a stay on the hearing instead of withdrawing the claim, so I said I would consider that. It’s coming down to a few days to the hearing date, however. They asked at the end of the call if I have any counteroffer which they could relay back to Apple.

Should I press a bit harder and tell them I want a replacement device (a repair wouldn’t be done in time for the hearing so I wouldn’t want to withdraw unless they made a written obligation) in order to withdraw the claim before the hearing, knowing that it’s going to cost them more to send someone to the hearing than it will to replace the device?

What’s the best tactic here?

fritzelly

Get in writing a repair or replacement

Verbal agreement means nothing and strange they would even say that

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038114#Comment_118038114

Yeah I thought it was crazy but Apple are weird like that. Their exec relations refuse to say anything over email and want to discuss any detail on the phone… looks like the legal team are the same.

I told them I wouldn’t be withdrawing anything until I had either a written obligation or a functional MacBook Pro. I’m not even sure if I should agree to a stay on the hearing as that sounds to be more in their benefit than mine.

I offered them a physical inspection of my faulty device multiple times when I was dealing with exec relations and they refused, telling me it wasn’t necessary. Now they want to get a stay on the hearing so they have a chance to inspect the device.

fritzelly

They had their chance, why should you give them more time now they are called to court

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038142#Comment_118038142

Agreed, that’s what I was thinking myself but just wanted to ask for some opinions on the best tactic. Thanks :)

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038142#Comment_118038142

Because the claimant always has to consider that the Judge might not agree with them, particularly when the defendant has offered a course for remedy.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038262#Comment_118038262

A remedy they won't put in writing and only extends to them having a look to decide if it's their issue which til now they have refused

pleasant Co.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038262#Comment_118038262

Of course in this instance it would be nothing more that a claim to have offered a course for remedy, given the refusal to provide anything in writing.

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038262#Comment_118038262

The call was made without prejudice, as I said, and Apple refused to put the offer in writing. Therefore, as far as the judge and court is concerned, the defendant did not offer a course for remedy.

If they offered to remedy the situation in writing, I would of course have been happy to withdraw.

Dav010

You still have to consider that success is not guaranteed, so take the time to consider the offer. If you lose, that’s the end of the line for you, Apple will not even do what they have now offered.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038320#Comment_118038320

And they could just as easily turn round and say nothing wrong as far as they are concerned and it's all the users fault - which is basically what they have been saying

Weighing up the two options I know which way I would be swinging

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038320#Comment_118038320

That’s true, but if I lose, Apple will also lose the cost of sending their solicitor. I’ll only be 25 quid worse off.

Given how they’ve been during this entire process thus far, I don’t trust their verbal promises in the slightest. They have more to lose here than I do, it’s either solicitor court fees, or solicitor court fees plus the claim value. For me, it’s a loss of 25 euro or a win.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038320#Comment_118038320

They haven't offered till it's written down. I wouldn't do a thing until a repair is in writing. Nothing.

The whole thing start to finish is an exercise in trying to get a customer to basically f o. That's their sole tactic.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038338#Comment_118038338

It’s not only a loss of €25 for you though, you’ve got to go buy a new laptop or pay for your existing one to be repaired. Listen, there will be lots of people telling you to stick it to Apple, and I’ve had enough problems with devices myself to not have any affection for their customer care, but the other posters will not be giving 2k for a new laptop or 500 to fix the one you have. So weigh up the benefits of giving them the opportunity to view/fix it versus a judge saying that you aren’t entitled to what you hope for.

Remember, as I posted earlier, after 6 months it is up to you to prove the fault is due to a manufacturing issue on a laptop which has functioned normally for 4 yrs rather than caused by you. Have you done this?

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038379#Comment_118038379

I want to give them to opportunity to fix it. But I’m not doing that if it’s not in writing, because unless it’s in writing, I have absolutely no comeback if that promise disappears as soon as I withdraw the claim.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038379#Comment_118038379

You are giving apple an awful lot of credit tbh. You working for them or ... ? And no one has said stick it to Apple . You made that bit up.. everyone is saying get it on paper. That's what we call sensible. Not what you've done and said trust them... They're apple what could go wrong I've lots of apple stuff so trust me....

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038379#Comment_118038379

They refused to even look at it at every chance and even said there is no issue with the laptop according to their own engineers even tho there is court cases going ahead against them for it already backed by a Judge in the US

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038421#Comment_118038421

If course not, it’s more about using common sense and not losing sight of the objective, to get a functioning laptop. Only a twit would think I would be posting on behalf of Apple.

Going to the SCC is not a guarantee of success.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038443#Comment_118038443

It's not , but neither is a verbal offer from God knows who over the phone.

Id want it on paper. That's the only real salient advice for the OP.

fritzelly

Be interesting to know what the other cases that were taken against them here in the SCC were for and how they turned out

rm212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038459#Comment_118038459

Yeah I’d love to know myself, would be very interesting to hear about.

Chris_5339762

I must admit I haven't gone through the whole thread - but record those phone conversations if you can. Thats as good as an email if they are refusing to write anything down.