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Rifles law

  • 22-07-2021 12:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ renas


    hi fellow shooters, im wondering can someone point me the right direction where i could find exact law pointers on the rifles, mostly wondering on folding stock, pistol grip and such upgrades if those can be done on rifle, appreciate



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Criminal justice misc provisions act 2006 .Its buried in there.

    But just to make it easier for you .Folding sticks,pistol grips etc are all legal on a rifle.Where you watch out is for magazine capacity and barrel length.

    Mag capacity is 10 rounds in .22 in an unrestricted rifle.If you want above that you need a restricted liscense.irrespective of its features

    Centrefire rifles.If it is not a semi auto rifle.Or restricted by being over .308.It can have whatever features and mag capacity you want.

    If it is semi auto,10 rounds max and whatever features you want,because it is in the restricted category straight off due to its mechanism.

    Overall length of the gun.Best to keep it at 60cms or greater.Thats the EU standard in the directives.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ renas




  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    I thought that repeating CF long guns were restricted to 10 rounds by SI 420/2019?

    "a loading device which can hold more than 10 rounds and is capable of being fitted to a centre-fire semi-automatic or repeating long firearm"

    SI 21/2008 - “repeating firearms” means firearms that are loaded and reloaded from a magazine or cylinder by a manually-operated mechanism;

    Thus non restricted CF can only have 10 round mags, but a restricted manually operated CF could have unlimited.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ renas


    interesting, is there actually a law books available for citizens or something where we can actually look in to updated information on the curent law, i mean probably finding something online can be risky to threat as actual law as if you in trouble they might not accept something you find online



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    I would strongly suggest you take everything on boards related to firearms as opinion, not law, for a start ;)


    AFAIK there are dozens of firearms & explosives acts, statutory instruments, bills, etc which make up the current firearms law.


    Best I can point you towards are the SI 21/2008, which defines restricted vs non restricted firearms,

    SI 420/2019 which covers magazine capacity restrictions in particular for repeating(read manual action) & semiautomatic firearms.


    Between these two you'll find the answer to your question on ammunition capacity which, in my opinion;

    Non restricted rifle - 10 rounds,

    Restricted rifle, 10 rounds if semiauto, no limit for repeating(manual).


    In SI 21/2008 you can also see what defines the features(stock, pistol grip, barrel length, etc) a firearm can have, and how they are categorised.


    Rather than a broad overview of all firearms law(there is a lot of it, most not relevant to your query) it'd be best to get a specific question you want answered first in mind, post it here and likely someone will post an SI or act or bill which relates to your query. IE can my non restricted bolt action 308 have a 20 round magazine, or can my shotgun have a pistol grip, etc.

    The search function is also very useful here since a lot of questions have been asked before, but again treat anything without either quoted law or a link to law as opinion, until you can verify it.


    Most here are a helpful bunch though and will assist if they know the answer.

    Hope that helps some 😉

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ renas


    sure it does help :) thats why im saying i would like to have certain proof, which if they had laws writen in books accessible to us we could dig in to them and find our ansvers, but i could not find any up to date which is kinda interesting :) so my question more is like what can i do regardless chassis, what i can change, can i use pistol grip, and can i use folding stock, as far as i know they are very strict regardless these on shotguns, and none of that can be used but rifle is a new thing to my.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    @renas Here is a link to the revised firearms act. It has pretty much all the acts, SIs, etc. in one place. No wildlife acts though. However its a good reference place and a word search can yield quick answers.



    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    (3) For the purposes of this section,  “   short fire arm   ”   means a firearm either with a barrel not longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length (excluding the length of any detachable component) does not exceed 60 centimetres. 

    You are right Damit!! 😠I keep forgetting ourIrish national law has this and the EU directive on this deals solely with semi-autos and every other EU country doesn't care what you have on your other than semi auto rifle.They legislate for it in their sport or hunting disciplines.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    On a rifle you can put whatever furniture you wish on it, according to SI 21/2008.

    The current interpretation here by the Firearms Policy Unit is that the "assault rifles" clause is unenforceable, so beyond that as long as you are not putting your rifle into a bullpup stock, and not modifying the barrel length or operating mechanism(ie bolt action to semiauto) and keep the overall length of min 60cm as Grizzly mentioned then you can stick on whatever you fancy.

    Pistol grip, folding stock(remembering overall length that is), chassis(remembering no bullpups, unless you have a restricted licence), etc you are fine with.

    Note that this is a non restricted rifle in Ireland, licenced as such, and has a very modern chassis, can be ordered with a folding stock, and has a pistol grip:

    Ruger Precision rifle in 223/5.56.

    Folding stock too:

    Non restricted in 308 in Ireland for a cool €2295 😉


    Now all that is my opinion & understanding of the laws at present, apart from those directly quoted which are obviously actual law 😉

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,946 ✭✭✭ renas


    nice :) thanks on your imput, helped with hours of searching for sure, now all i need is to collect mine 😃



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Yet the above rifle in 22 lr is bizarrely a possible restricted rifle, due to its plus ten mag capacity!!! Have heard some folks had problems licensing such because of that feature.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Why are bullpup rifles restricted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Good question.To which we have never recived an answer from officialdom .I would hazard a guess ,that because the Irish army uses the AUG,some Hollywood trained firearms expert in the AGs/DOJ decided they were especially dangerous and concealable,or the "Idontlike delookodatnow"clause kicked in with a vengeance in 2008.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭ minktrapper


    Concealable. All one has to do is cut a few inches off the stock and barrel of a "normal" gun and you can conceal all you want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Mac_Tire


    I think it’s each Sheriff to their own..‘requirements’ seem to vary District to District



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    I have a theory on this...

    When it comes to drafting firearms legislation anywhere, go find the thickest, most ignorant and unwilling to listen to any sort of reasoning or common sense, and bonus points if they are pro whatever anti legislation is being proposed and drawn up in the relevant depts and let them at it.

    It's the only explanation as to why we end up with such god awful clusterfuks of firearms and other legislation out there.


    I think we'll have to christen this the....[Insert good name here]....Law.😜

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    Why? The main word used to explain Firearms Legislation in Ireland.

    The best bit is you put a load of "Experts", in the room and draft new legislation and we will still be no better off.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ 1874


    This and the following replies, specifically the one highlighting SI 21/2008, seem to answer questions I wanted an answer to, which I had been given an opinion to the contrary. I wanted to at least try look at the relevant Act or SI, but couldn't recal them offhand, finding this post has helped, and I had a look at SI 21/2008.

    My questions are (were) as I feel it is confirmed, I'm still looking for an opinion or correction if I'm incorrect, Mainly 1. Can a .22lr semi auto rifle have a pistol grip, but also 2. Can a .22lr semi auto rifle have a folding or collapsible (adjustable) stock? and still remain unrestricted?

    e.g. if I had a Ruger 10/22 and wanted to make some improvements/modifications, 1. could I remove the existing stock and add/fit a pistol grip? 2. could I also add/change to an adjustable stock OR even a folding stock?

    According to the replies, but more importantly to SI 21/2008, it seems a .22lr rifle can have a pistol grip and at the least an adjustable stock, if not even a folding stock, because all the requirements for a .22lr semi auto not to be restricted appear to be in one line (2)(C)(ii) and such items aren't mentioned at all. Unless this is contradicted or is dealt with differently elsewhere in later or other legislation?

    Up until this very point, my understanding of this (in particular the pistol grip aspect) was based on how other people went about making available modifications to their rifles AND what they said about it, Which was that only thumbhole stocks were allowable, not pistol grips, likewise for adjustable stocks. While I see no reason or benefit for a folding stock for my purposes, it seems such a component also would still allow an unrestricted .22lr semi auto rifle remain unrestricted and not cause it to become restricted.

    I didn't know this before, and I think other people still don't know it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Hi 1874!

    Yes, a 10/22 can have a pistol grip, and it can have any folding or telescoping stock, provided that the stock does not allow the firearm to be shortened under 60 cm.

    The latter comes from Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Section 30 - 3D(3), which defines a "short firearm"(read pistol in the DOJ's mind) as - "a firearm either with a barrel not longer than 30 centimetres or whose overall length (excluding the length of any detachable component) does not exceed 60 centimetres."


    So, so long as your folding/telescoping stock, when folded or shortened to it's smallest, does not allow the firearm's overall length to fall under 60cm, then you should be golden!

    For a good judge the Ruger SR22(basically just a 10/22 in a modern stock) is licenced as a non restricted firearm:

    Telescoping stock, and a pistol grip.

    Hope that helps!


    If this is a new licence and not a new stock on an existing licenced firearm you are thinking of popping on and your Firearms Officer is giving you grief politely request that they submit a query to the Firearms Policy Unit on whether the firearm in question is classified as non restricted.

    They will likely ask for a photo, and whether it is rimfire or centrefire.

    The FPU has before, as recently as the past year, reaffirmed that rimfire firearms which look like AR15s are non restricted, provided the mag capacity is 10 rounds or less, and the length is still kosher, etc.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ 1874


    Great, thanks for the confirmation.

    It is for an existing licenced rifle, the Gardai haven't queried it at all, I had been told by an individual in the sport, that making such changes could/would make my rifle restricted, they seemed more to be on the side that it would, but they did suggest checking. I wanted to confirm I would still be legitimately unrestricted without any question, or at least no questions that I couldn't answer & quote the law myself if necessary. The rifle would look more like what you have pictured but other than an ergonomic improvement over the original butt and foregrip, it functions identically. I have not measured it but the buttstock is similar to what you have pictured and it really only imo adjusts the length for personal fit/comfort and then only by about 8cm or thereabouts, I'll measure the minimum overall length for certainty but I doubt it's under 75cm's. I was concerned I'd have to either acquire a different butt/pistol grip or do some kind of a DIY job where I'd turn it into a thumbhole by adding a piece of metal or plastic, which I think would not look good, and worse might be in the way/be a safety issue. The last paragraph regarding the FPU and the look is very helpful also.

    Thanks for the reply/confirmation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭ otmmyboy2


    Ah good good, no worries at all.

    Enjoy the new modern stock, I never found the more traditional ones particularly comfortable ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭ 1874


    I measured ot at its minimum length, surprised, it's 95cm, so well within limits



  • Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭ jb88


    That query on mag capacity with the maximum limit of 10 round magazines only relates to rifles. I think you can have mag capacity of whatever you want or up to 20 rds in a CF Pistol. I guess the thinking is no one will get shot in the foot twice with the pistols so the mag capacity wont matter.. oh wait



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Yup,20 rounds in a pistol.So long as you don't have a long arm that can take a compatible pistol magazine as well in your possesionl. As to why,ask Eurocrats who know nothing, and didn't want to learn anything either about these complexities.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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