General Rugby Discussion 3

OldRio

Talking of Twickenham.

This is rather worrying for the RFU.

https://twitter.com/chrisjonespress/status/1693894905196671030?s=20

PTH2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010974#Comment_121010974

They'll be letting soccer in there soon if those numbers keep up

Suppose it's not a 'marquee game'

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010170#Comment_121010170

did that tour about 17 years ago and thought it was pretty good, i do remember being confused about how much the tour guide knew about rugby apart from the spiel he was giving since he saw my munster jersey and asked 'youre not welsh are you?'

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011051#Comment_121011051

The New Zealand South Africa game sucked in all the big rugby fans.

Exclamation Marc

Owen Farrell will miss England’s first two games at the start of the Rugby World Cup. An independent disciplinary committee suspended the England captain on Tuesday night for four matches after World Rugby’s appeal was upheld, the English Rugby Football Union has announced. Farrell will miss the World Cup games against Argentina and Japan.

Glad to see this decision although four matches is light given his history so he should count himself very very lucky. It was an utter farce that he escaped a ban in the first place.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011051#Comment_121011051

Yep, England aren't a big draw these days.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010974#Comment_121010974

Why would anyone want to pay to watch England at the moment tbf.

Blut2

Its probably a lot to do with plenty of England fans going to France for games in September / October too to be fair. Thats a lot of people's rugby budget, and time away from the family, accounted for.

MaddChris

Webb could be in a lot of trouble here

https://twitter.com/IlltudDafydd/status/1695421000630878438?t=hRqAIb5EGt4IpvsAgAeS4A&s=19

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029540#Comment_121029540

Supplied by the WRU?! You'd have to think he could have a case against them if he gets banned.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029540#Comment_121029540

Homer voice:

"Mmmmmmm. Hormone de crossaint"

Podge_irl

Elton Jantjies got caught today as well.

RichieRich_89

They are all on it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030804#Comment_121030804

I'm extremely convinced that they are not. I've seen very detailed information on player development and S&C from underage up to what some of the current international senior players are doing and whilst impressive I've seen it replicated by 100% clean amateurs doing their own thing in the gym.

Pre academy forwards aren't lifting anything too dramatic. Nothing more or less anyone couldn't replicate or get close to replicating within 6 - 8 months of disciplined training.

Probably the biggest improvement I've seen in player conditioning in Ireland is in athletic ability / cardio. This is by far the fittest Irish team we've ever had - and it's not what they're lifting in the gym.

If this was provided by the Welsh federation - my guess is that they've fucked up and not cleared medication properly. I'm going to be very surprised if this was sanctioned doping. I'm going to be surprised if it's the player themselves doping.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030804#Comment_121030804

Mod: Throwing around loose, unsubstantiated accusations like this any more will result in a ban.

Sangre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031950#Comment_121031950

Doping isn’t just about lifting heavier weights. And the fitness related ones are often harder to catch.

I don’t think doping is rife in rugby but given its presence in nearly every other sport (that wants to clamp down on it), I’d be surprised if some high profile players hadn’t used at some point in their career. Most likely before turning pro or while injured.

Not picking on you Venjur, but in general I think people are a little too hopeful as to the effectiveness of testing. People in Ireland are horrified at suggestion rugby players dope. Basically the same response given by every other sport before some huge scandal.

StevenToast

The welsh love their SAS...

Sunbeds and Steroids....

AbusesToilets

Rather shocking if it's true that blood testing isn't common at the professional level. Far to easy to dodge a piss test.

DGRulz

Was it not 4 years ago, on the eve of a world cup they had the Howley betting scandal as well?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033834#Comment_121033834

Gambling on the Wales team. Apparently WRU had to block Gatland from bringing him back!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032911#Comment_121032911

Any aerobic related PED's would be pointless for rugby players. Individual sports are one thing, but there is far less impact the performance gains can offer someone in a 15 player game where skills and decision making are so important.

I don't see well paid professionals throwing that away when the performance levels are by all accounts achievable. Even younger players not quite at the level using PED's to improve physical / athletic performance are still going to have to demonstrate a full game to benefit from it.

I'm not overly hopeful around testing because I don't think the capacity of testers to detect samples or to get the timing right is difficult. At the same time - I spent 5 years under Sport Ireland's testing regime and I felt it was thorough enough that I was reasonably confident I was competing against clean athletes.

I'd be more worried about drug use in the amateur side of the game.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/TightFive_Rugby/status/1695901891455033564?t=Z5OGrSPuIOOf-XuSsIXFPw&s=19

...

pickarooney

Idiots signing that chap.

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036637#Comment_121036637

Connacht should sign him.

TheAnalyst_

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/maggie-alphonsi-the-day-i-smashed-owen-farrell-in-training/a360346056.html

What a load of shite.

pickarooney

Thanks for sharing the load of shite I guess?

Ben Bailey

Scott Barrett free to play in RWC. No further sanction following his RC last weekend.

AbusesToilets

He's very lucky, think it was rather suspect that his actions didn't warrant a red on their own

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121040400#Comment_121040400

He 'has form' for this type of hit and previous bans, so I suspect the view was taken since he hadn't made direct head contact a good telling off would be sufficient.

"Mmmm, these are particularly nice biscuits Scott, did you bake them yourself ?"

What are people's thoughts on this - I think it's interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyzaQyZb1us&ab_channel=OffTheBall

I know Williams is a divisive character but without making this about him, is there an argument for the bench being more prescriptive?

I like the idea of teams gaming their bench the way South Africa did against the All Blacks, it's innovative and will require teams to adapt. If it were to become a more common tactic no one would announce their teams until the last available second.

It was a big risk by the South African's and whilst the sentiment is that it paid off, I think you have to take into account this was a warm up game and we don't know how seriously the AB's took it as they were under the cosh before the bench came on for SA.

Had SA lost a wing or a centre they could move a flanker back and get on with it. They were in trouble if they lost both halves but could get away with losing one. They could lose a wing or centre and whilst it wouldn't be ideal they could move a flanker back. Losing a FB would require a wing to drop and a flanker to slot in on the wing but all manageable.

My understanding is that SA were going for a 6:2 split but a late withdrawal for LeRoux prompted them to go 7:1. No one would have bat an eyelid over the 6:2 split but it was the nature of how they used their bench that casts doubts on the LeRoux excuse.

I can see how this could result in some pretty unorthodox teams getting picked. I don't think it's ideal to have a situation where forwards are filling back slots but I'm not sure what risk there is involved to anything but the scoreboard.

At the same time - making your 23 so focused on the forwards isn't quite the sport we know and love. What if it become the new flavour of the month and next season everyone was playing 15 forwards and 8 backs in their 23?

I'm not concerned by what SA did, they didn't break any rules and whilst they were dominant they'd need to repeat it a few times successfully before it's a 'thing'. What are other peoples opinions - set restrictions around bench slots or leave as is?

sydthebeat

"South Africa's tactics are obvious now"....

well blow me down with a feather Matty, thats some class A punditry there

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041995#Comment_121041995

Already some talk about restricting subsitute numbers & positions. WR walked themselves into the SA v NZ scenario by requiring front row specialist replacements on safety grounds & then having to allow 5 further replacements to cover non front row positions. Injury subs only seems an option.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042098#Comment_121042098

I'd keep the 8 subs but limit the use of tactical substitutions to maybe 3 or 4 players and I'd also restrict the number of players that can be replaced at the same time.

Other players can still be replaced for Injury reasons.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032911#Comment_121032911

Its also about the physical frame size of people. If you take HGH during your teens you will turn into a larger adult, even if you never take another dose the "damage" is done.

Rugbymad2020

The 7/1 split was due to Willie been pulled,he’s replacement was kwagga……a man that has over 170 caps for blitzbok and could do a job on the wing if it was needed.

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042478#Comment_121042478

Surely the original intention of having specialist front rowers on the bench was for injury replacement, not 'bomb squad' (not picking on SA but it's an accepted term). Both sets of opposing front row starters are (roughly) equally tiring at much the same rate. The risk of injury caused by a tiring body & mind is great, but not perhaps as great as a tired front row facing a fresh front row. Substitutions for injury (for front rows anytime) should be possible, but tactical substitutions should be limited (to a time period, maybe post 65 mins ?) except maybe at 9 or 10.

Yeah_Right

I don't think it would be possible to restrict substitutions to injury replacements only. Teams would just game the system. It used to be just for injuries but teams started just making tactical substitutions. I remember watching Tri-Nations matches in the mid to late 90s and South African players going down injured, limping off the field and then casually leaping over the advertising hoardings and strolling to the bench. It was a joke.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043263#Comment_121043263

ive thought that too but then maybe if you are marked as an injury replacement you are automatically out of the next game? thats probably going too far but im sure there is some middle ground that would work

maybe that sort of a rule would only apply to front row, so you can have one front row sub thats tactical but any more would have to be injury related and then theyre out for a game/week/whatever?

fitz

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem imo.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043389#Comment_121043389

You couldnt ever have if you are marked as injury replacement you cant play next game. Players, coaches, teams, player unions would never agree.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043774#Comment_121043774

Im not sure. Larger players make injuries more likely and so there's been a lot of discussion around limiting substitutions to ensure that all players can go for 80 which might reduce size and so have an impact on injuries. It hasn't gone anywhere because of the difficulty of distinguishing between injury enforced and tactical subs (maybe a guy has a suspect calf strain or hamstring tightness, is that a provable injury or a sensible substitution to prevent an injury).

Ben Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044139#Comment_121044139

The 'provable injury' aspect is too difficult to legislate for. Players may conceal injuries in order not to be substituted and miss selection for the next match.

Limiting the number of subs which can be simultaneously brought on is a possibility since it would be easier to administer.

pickarooney

Why do larger players make injury more likely? Would fitter players going at higher speed not do more damage?

Tired players are more likely to cause through misjudged tackling IMO.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044758#Comment_121044758

Various studies have found a correlation between body mass and injury in rugby, maybe just because forwards are involved in more collisions but bigger body mass results in bigger collisions and bigger collisions mean more injuries. Im not sure about the speed point you make. Bigger guys aren't necessarily much slower over short distances. American football players are a good example of this fact. Lots of huge rugby players are very fast. Tactical substitutions have allowed forwards to get bigger.

Jump_In_Jack

Here’s a crazy idea, what if the subs had to run laps during the match, as slow as they want, but have to keep moving. Then when required for replacing a tired or injured player they should also be a bit tired. It would take away the massive difference between starters and hugely oversized bench options.

Alternatively have them spinning on a stationary bike by the side of the pitch.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045283#Comment_121045283

I'm just trying to imagine which players I'd least like to try tackle and most of them are fast-moving back rows!

Yeah_Right

Irishman John Poland started at halfback for Manawatu against Auckland this morning. Manawatu recorded their first victory on Eden Park since 1980. It was a pretty entertaining match.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046776#Comment_121046776

Interesting move. He had been playing MLR after not getting anywhere with Munster.

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046776#Comment_121046776

Craziness. That's my team. I still remember going to watch a young Joe Schmidt tear up the wing for Manawatu at the Showgrounds when I was a kid. Long blonde locks flowing in the wind.

Yeah_Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121046855#Comment_121046855

The commentators mentioned there were a few players from MLR in the Manawatu side. The coach was the NE Freejacks coach so I guess that's the connection.

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031950#Comment_121031950

GH isn't taken by players of Webb's age for strength gains, or for aerobic capacity. Its for the recovery benefits.

GH and steroids are by all accounts rife in high level rugby given their massive benefits and difficulty to test for for GH in particular. There are plenty of interviews with people in the game talking about it. ie

"with one former international coach claiming that there has been ‘institutionalised drug-taking’ " -- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2863758/Rugby-s-drug-problem-exposed-RFU-boss-admits-realise-s-issue-addressing-it.html

"From the 3925 players, a mix of Amateurs, semi-professionals and professionals, interviewed, Rugby Warfare found that 40 percent of professionals are contemplating using PEDS, while 12 percent admitted that they are currently taking steroids." - https://rugby365.com/tournaments/pro14/news-pro14/doping-rugbys-ever-growing-problem/

etc

Anyone who knows any modern pro-players well socially will have plenty of (unrepeatable) anecdotal stories, too.