US and Nato withdrawal from Afghanistan...- threadbanned users in OP

kildare lad

BluePlanet wrote: »

Why would the Pakistanis do that?
Neverminding the shear scale of the operation and logistical difficulty in manning border outposts throughout mountain ranges that are essentially no mans land and controlled by warlords.

You've misread a reply I wrote to a previous post . I know the Taliban are heavily involved with Pakistan .

BluePlanet

kildare lad wrote: »

You've misread a reply I wrote to a previous post . I know the Taliban are heavily involved with Pakistan .

IMO the Taliban have been pretty good bang for the buck, for Pakistan.
They've managed to mostly control events on the ground in Afghanistan via the Taliban for years before the US and a few Nato friends arrived.
They were handy in keeping other regional players competing for influence in check too.

Labaik

Gatling wrote: »

They didn't defeat America , America just didn't have any real plan for the medium to longer terms .

You could use that same logic with the Soviets.

The Americans were defeated in both Afghanistan and Iraq, these are wars the west havent got the stomach to win as they will sustain massive casualties on the ground just like they did in Vietnam. Only a mad man would say the intervention in the middle east and the war on terror was a success, it was a resounding failure.

BluePlanet

Labaik wrote: »

You could use that same logic with the Soviets.

The Americans were defeated in both Afghanistan and Iraq, these are wars the west havent got the stomach to win as they will sustain massive casualties on the ground just like they did in Vietnam. Only a mad man would say the intervention in the middle east and the war on terror was a success, it was a resounding failure.

It wasn't a resounding failure.
Al-Qaeda is basically a tiny shadow of what it once once and their aims totally neutralized.

Dr. Bre

Dr. Bre wrote: »

That’s why the Russians left - you can’t win in Afghan

Afghanistan is one of those places where "win" is impossible to define.

kildare lad

BluePlanet wrote: »

It wasn't a resounding failure.
Al-Qaeda is basically a tiny shadow of what it once once and their aims totally neutralized.

Do you think they could have not achieved it at the start , but american SF forces were told to pull back . I think that the neocons wanted a total change of leaders in middle east , dubya thought that the iraq war would be over in a few months and they'd pay for it with Iraqi oil . How well did that work out .

kildare lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Afghanistan is one of those places where "win" is impossible to define.

What is there to win ?

kildare lad

kildare lad wrote: »

What is there to win ?

Dust.

kildare lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Dust.

Well worth a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of lives .

kildare lad

kildare lad wrote: »

Well worth a trillion dollars and tens of thousands of lives .

It was worth it to the companies that supplied the military.

Jimbob1977

In many ways, the last 20 years have been total folly.

The status quo has returned.

The Taliban are effectively in power and the Afghan government will disintegrate rapidly

BluePlanet

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

In many ways, the last 20 years have been total folly.

The status quo has returned.

The Taliban are effectively in power and the Afghan government will disintegrate rapidly

Yes but this time they won't be hosting an Osama Bin Laden group and terrorist organization with a global reach.
I'll wager they learned a hard lesson on that score.

kildare lad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It was worth it to the companies that supplied the military.

That's the price of " Freedom"

spring lane jack

Wonder what will happen to the Heroin trade and how long will it be till we see the effects on the ground here in Ireland. I'm sure Drew Harris's old crew will figure out someway to keep the cash flowing.

Pre 9/11. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-poppy-a-success-us-aides-say.html

TheValeyard

spring lane jack wrote: »

Wonder what will happen to the Heroin trade and how long will it be till we see the effects on the ground here in Ireland. I'm sure Drew Harris's old crew will figure out someway to keep the cash flowing.

Pre 9/11. https://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/20/world/taliban-s-ban-on-poppy-a-success-us-aides-say.html

It's interesting. Wonder will they ban it once in power again. They've made a fortune from it during the past decade.

suicide_circus

Perhaps the Taliban are the right men to run Afghanistan

TheValeyard

suicide_circus wrote: »

Perhaps the Taliban are the right men to run Afghanistan

Has to be a better alternative.

Strict interpretation of Islam running the country is a pretty crappy situation to be in.

Jimbob1977

Not good news for television and mini-skirt sales anyway

kildare lad

suicide_circus wrote: »

Perhaps the Taliban are the right men to run Afghanistan

Looking back on it now so were Saddam and Gadaffi

kildare lad

TheValeyard wrote: »

Has to be a better alternative.

Strict interpretation of Islam running the country is a pretty crappy situation to be in.

The only way to get rid of them would be if the yanks stayed there forever , the ANA have shown they're not up to it .

Gatling

Labaik wrote: »

You could use that same logic with the Soviets.

Lol not a hope ...

Thousands of soldiers killed , thousands of vehicles blown up , hundreds of aircraft shotdown ,and a military that left with its tail firmly stuck between their legs ,
Russian loses from Afghanistan , Chechens wars ,and Ukraine are far higher than America lost in two invasions of Iraq ,and then Afghanistan to the point they have made all losses on foreign locations a classified state secret
America always said they wouldn't be staying in Afghanistan ,nor did they invade and massacre a government .

Stovepipe

Thousands of people,especially members of the Army and Government have already fled to neighbouring countries so there is little incentive for the remainder to stay, especially when people have had their pay delayed or stolen. What's the point in staying to fight when the battalion commander has fled?

Gatling

At one point soldiers from the Afghan army were left unpaid for months at a time while their commanders pocketed all the money ,
Remember when Ross Kemp went to Afghanistan and was embedded with British and Afghan forces ,the Afghans went on a mission to kidnap locals because their commander didn't send them cake which they were promised for not getting their wages ....

Paid in cake ........

charlie_says

I wonder if we will see articles regarding the Taliban treatment of women and gay people that will blame Trump.

kildare lad

charlie_says wrote: »

I wonder if we will see articles regarding the Taliban treatment of women and gay people that will blame Trump.

??

Labaik

TheValeyard wrote: »

Has to be a better alternative.

Strict interpretation of Islam running the country is a pretty crappy situation to be in.

Western style democracy was and is never going to take hold in Afghanistan any time soon. These Islamic countries need to be left alone and let them decide for themselves what sort of society or laws they want to abide by. If it wasnt for oil there is zero chance the west would be anywhere near the place militarily.

The West is out now. They can still offer guidance and financial support but it's up to the regional players to sort the situation out. Europe needs to focus on preventing millions more migrants moving from the central Asian countries into the EU.

Manic Moran

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

The only way to win, is to win the hearts and minds of the people there. And that just isn't going to happen.
The US would have been better off with a softy softy approach to try an get them or at least some of the onside after 911 but the American public were calling for an aggressive response.

I think if it were to ever happen again and the US had to invade/do something, they'd just do something awful to them (Off the books like)

Well, the Taliban are winning the hearts and minds of the people. It's worth noting that there are two methods of doing so, carrot and stick. The British counter-insurgency manual specifically states that the "Hearts and minds" campaign which worked for the British Army in Malaya was not 'throwing candies to children', but blunt coercion: Which seems to be the Taliban M.O. However, it is a politically unacceptable course of action for a Western force. The problem is, as noted above, that the "Western" way of doing things simply doesn't apply to such a tribal organisation as Afghanistan has.

The US simply stayed too long, they achieved their own goals years ago. The problem was they had this concept in their minds that they should be nice and benevolent and try to build the country in a democratic-ish, modern manner.
That's fair enough, but there's giving a leg up and a helping hand to start, and there's pissing into the wind. It became obvious quite some time ago that the Taliban were going to take over again due to the lack of a competent and effective central government.

The primary goal of the US was to deny terrorist organisations a place of operations. "You let them attack us, we'll make life miserable (and probably short) for you". If the Taliban leadership does it again, the US should go in again, except this time, once they've knocked out the Taliban leadership, pretty much immediately go home, and so on. Eventually the next group of folks in charge of the Taliban will figure out it's easier and safer for them to have their own little domestic ideological dictatorship which they can enjoy, without poking the Americans.

It might implode in on itself and fragment along tribal regions.

Things could get very bleak... or improve now they've no common enemy

Galwayguy35

Wallace and Daly will be happy the Yanks are leaving anyway, sure they might even pay a visit to see how the Taliban are getting on.