TD Ciaran Cannon hit by SUV, suffers serious injury

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357828#Comment_119357828

I am strongly tempted to change tactics on reporting and go to the HSA as well as the Gardai going forward. Just to see if they actually follow through on their statutory obligations.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357858#Comment_119357858

The HSA is responsible for health and safety in the workplace. I am not sure if they would get involved in this. However they look at the total issue and how safety can be improved. They could actually put some onus on the cyclist for his own safety. This is similar in the workplace where protocols are put in place which place responsibility on the worker for his own safety

magicbastarder

a trucker driving a truck is by definition in his (or her) own workplace, no?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357957#Comment_119357957

This incident was between a car and a cyclist. Yes a truck driver is in his workplace. However the HSA would defer to the Gardai as it's a traffic accident. Where they would get involved is where poor truck lighting was an issue or where something on the truck was part of the accident.

There remit is totally different to Gardai. They have a total remit for workplace safety. If the roadway was considered to be a workplace they could decide to remove all cyclist from the workplace

Seth Brundle

This incident was between a car and a cyclist.

...and not between a driver and a bike? Or between a driver and a cyclist? Why did you exclude the one person most deem responsible?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357933#Comment_119357933

I was responding to the post about Trucks, Takis etc. not specifically this case.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357996#Comment_119357996

They actually ran an advertisement campaign clarifying that if you are driving for work, you are at work and the employer has responsibilities as does the employee, seperate to road traffic legislation.

Seth Brundle

The HSA have a whole section about driving for work on their website...

https://hsa.ie/eng/vehicles_at_work/driving_for_work/

That page says...

Driving for work involves a risk not only for drivers, but also for fellow workers and members of the public, such as pedestrians and other road users. As an employer or self-employed person, you must, by law, manage the risks that may arise when you or your employees drive for work. Employers should have systems in place to ensure that Driving for Work activities are road safety compliant. Employers cannot directly control roadway conditions, but they can promote and influence safe driving behaviour and actions by their employees.

magicbastarder

i mentioned here before that i once brought the attention of a garda to a grab truck (parked on the footpath) outside the local spar. he was disinterested in it being obnoxiously parked, but paid attention when i told him the tyres were bald (and the treads were totally gone on one tyre).

what annoyed me about that is that i assume the driver will get the punishment and not the fleet manager who was sending the drivers out in vehicles with obviously defective tyres.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119356939#Comment_119356939

Everyone agrees it sh1t driving now you might actually address questions in my post. Can you forget about the driver an deal with the cyclist actions even if honest answers might be less than complementary of his risk avoidance.

Good roadcraft? You'd advise a loved one to cycle in that manner.

The car beside was stopped not slow moving. Stopped beside a busy entrance/junction on a road he knew well and didn't correct his speed.

He's entitled not to but would you advise it or not?

He's not on the quays in Dublin or along the canal, he's in Galway were cyclists are much more scare and less likely that an average motorist will even consider a cyclist overtaking in that location. Whether they should or shouldn't is irrelevant in terms of assessing the risk.

Slow moving traffic stopping at entrances/junctions is a regular feature of traffic and one a cyclist should consider in order to keep themselves safe or can they just discount the risk because they are entitled to overtake?

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357670#Comment_119357670

Victim blaming allegation is room 101 for killing honest discussion. You don't want to answer my questions because you don't like the answers

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359765#Comment_119359765

...

Tombo2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359781#Comment_119359781

I dont want to answer your questions because I think they are the wrong questions.

My question is: Why didnt the DPP prosecute?

Your question is: Should Ciaran Cannon have known better?

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359765#Comment_119359765

The car beside had only immediately stopped. It wasn't a busy junction. It was one he was very familiar with too

He was right at the cars rear before it came actually came to a stop. Is it poor roadcraft to not predict the future 2 second. The driver who hit him was already crossing the lane too while the car was moving before it stopped. It all happened a lot quicker than you seem to imagine it did. The driver should not have let the other one cross. There was no need. There no break in the traffic.

I don't know why they didn't prosecute, neither do you. They've prosecuted lesser and won and worse and lost.

Cannon is the only one who did nothing wrong as he behaved entirely predictably .

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357484#Comment_119357484

I go mountain biking most weekends, and I often encounter road cyclists while driving there. I'm very happy to take my time in passing them, but I'm constantly being waved on by them, even on blind bends and even with other cyclists coming down hill opposite us on occasion.

I get that being followed by a car is pressuring, but so it being aggressively waved on and shouted at for not passing. (and no, I wasn't too close, and the car was on EV mode)

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359824#Comment_119359824

Why did the DPP not prosecute

They must have felt it was not a case they could win in court. They are independent of the state. It's is there decision and there decision alone. Maybe there analysis was that the driver was not completely at fault.

We do not know as the case did not go to court.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359765#Comment_119359765

That's a bit like saying all drivers should drive at 5kpm in urban areas in case someone runs off the pavement in front of them.

Because what you want is cyclists to drive at a snails space to avoid an accident caused by bad driving.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360018#Comment_119360018

Regardless of what or who signals you. Its the driver who is ultimately responsible. So take that "go on to hell" advice from a passenger at your peril.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360211#Comment_119360211

That's a false comparison; the risk is entirely to the cyclist. I'm suggesting the cyclist does something about that.

I regularly control my speed driving when going through green lights/junctions I have priority in order to reduce my risk of having an impact with an idiot. I could choose not to an increase my risk of an impact

The only way cyclist can control that is by adjusting his behaviour. Not controlling speed in the middle of a 2 m channel and 1m from the inside of a line of a stopping is putting himself at unnecessary risk.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359824#Comment_119359824

Get me Book of evidence and I'll have an educated guess.

Why are questions that some cyclist could learn from and avoid an accident the wrong questions? They are the wrong questions because you don't like the answers.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360017#Comment_119360017

The control is to travel really cautiously in that channel; he's out of view when a driver starts turn

The seating position in any car is circa 1.6 from front bumper. He's 1m inside line of cars and vulnerable to anyone turning.

The only reasonable control is a slow speed and being alert for stopped/stopping vehicles.

You'd advise a loved one to cycle exactly like Cannon there! Third time asking now..

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360477#Comment_119360477

It's exactly the comparison.

You might as well say when driving and you have green light you should stop and check there isn't a lorry breaking the lights because you will end up worse off.

If a truck does hit you, you'll be at fault because you're at greater risk.

Now you're asking will you let someone drive knowing that if a 40 ton truck hits them they get hurt possibly killed.

Flinty997

This is what you're proposing .

https://www.cyclingireland.ie/news-item/cyclists-mandated-to-use-cycle-tracks-again-/

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360520#Comment_119360520

It's a blind turn across traffic...at speed. Seating position my Barney.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119359765#Comment_119359765

#1 The only thing unique about Galway is drivers complaining about traffic created by themselves. They are the traffic.

#2 The effort they go to block traffic solutions like cycling infrastructure. Because it will get in the way of creating more car traffic. (See #1).

#3 None of this (1&2) is unique to Galway or Ireland. You just can't join the dots.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360553#Comment_119360553

I'd advise them to cycle as they think is safe and normal if it's a road and junction familiar to them and use their personal judgemw t

Again cannon was in moving traffic, on familiar roads at a junction that wasn't remotely as busy as you've made it out to be.

You class victim blaming as a route to shutting down discussion but keep up with whataboutery.

Flinty997

I assume you meant to quote "drive over you" BottleandGlassHim.

Strumms

The driver can’t see through other vehicles…that’s a simple fact… he is within his rights to make the turn… the cyclist should have been cognisant of that fact… slowed down when approaching the junction / turn and checked for traffic… had he done so he will see the vehicle turning and react accordingly…

a good common sense decision by the DPP

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360892#Comment_119360892

He’s absolutely not within his rights to make the turn if he’s completely blind to road traffic that has right of way.

The driver should have been cognisant that anyone in the cycle lane had the right of way and should have slowed down when making the turn and checking for traffic.

It’s no different than if a pedestrian had been crossing the road.

Absolutely sick of this whole notion that it’s the cyclist’s fault for not cycling defensively because of inconsiderate clowns who don’t know the rules of the road.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360909#Comment_119360909

The DPP disagree with you evidently..

Was he completely blind ? he would have checked, what he could see at the time he started his turn there was no traffic, but the cyclist had the opportunity themselves to slow whilst approaching the turn and break in traffic.

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360939#Comment_119360939

No the DPP didn’t say that the driver was in the right, they said they didn’t have sufficient evidence to prosecute. Completely different to saying the driver was innocent and in the right.

Do you think the cyclist just teleported into the space he was turning into? Ignorance doesn’t grant the driver immunity, that’s like me turning right in my car across your path and saying well you should’ve seen me turning so why didn’t you stop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360892#Comment_119360892

Eh? Nonsense

Think of it this way, instead of a cyclist and a bike lane, think of it as a dual carriageway and a car coming up the inside lane.

Do you still think the driver crossing the lanes would be in the right? Of course not

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360976#Comment_119360976

It’s not a dual carriageway so less of the hypotheticals please…

but as per your usual schtick on this subject no cyclist evidently has any role to play in road safety…

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360892#Comment_119360892

Driving by braille. You couldn't make it up.

DPP and Garda turned a blind eye maybe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360990#Comment_119360990

Legally speaking, the same principles apply

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361039#Comment_119361039

again, cyclist slows down to check if a car who may not be of the ability to view them is turning, which is a fact they’d be cognisant of this is avoided..

how could the Garda turn a blind eye, they referred it to the DPP whom would have reasonably believed on the evidence that the driver wasn’t as fault.

Flinty997

They ignore atrocious driving all day long everywhere. Nothing new about this. If it wasn't a TD they might not even have noted it all. Some might consider the lack of enforcement tacit approval for abysmal driving.

What you saying is at every junction, and driveway as a driver you should slow down in case another driver cuts across you without looking and without warning. Because if the driver doesn't slow down, they might as well have caused the accident.

Flinty997

Basically this...

A taxi driver speeds through a red light without even looking
And the passenger says, "whoa, what are you doing?! That was a red!"
The driver replies, "don't worry about it. My cousin, he does it all the time."


The passenger sits back until the driver blows through another red. He practically leaps out of his seat,
 "what are you doing?! You'll get us killed!"
The driver waves him off, "nonsense. My cousin, he does it all the time."


Then they come to a green light and the driver slams on the brakes and creeps into the intersection before taking off again. 
Now the passenger is livid.
"What was that?! That light was green!"
The driver nods and then shrugs before replying.
"My cousin. He mighta been coming."

Formatting and quoting is so broken on this heap of a site.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361065#Comment_119361065

It's not that they don't believe driver is not at fault, it's that it might not meet the threshold to get a successful prosecution.

If he'd hit someone running across the junction though, it would be treated differently

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361183#Comment_119361183

well the video footage is clear. So the evidence I’d guess is sufficient to decide to prosecute or not.

they’ve decided not to…

im on that bike I’m slowing down before that turn and stopping if required.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360892#Comment_119360892

The driver was in the lane and turning before the other car stopped. The driver was all kinds of wrong.

Why is the standard of being supremely cautious applied to cannon and not to the person in the massive suv who has essentialy bullied the car ahead in yielding.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361219#Comment_119361219

And if you're in the car your blindly making a turn or are we applying double standards to different road users?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361219#Comment_119361219

Not clear if you're blind

magicbastarder

this is not difficult. if you hit oncoming traffic while executing a right hand turn, you're at fault.

i would bet my bottom dollar the insurance company agreed with this, and paid out.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357933#Comment_119357933

A cyclist on the road is not equivalent to a worker in the workplace. It would be equivalent to a member of the public in the workplace.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357858#Comment_119357858

I've tried and failed on that channel. They are very selective about which road deaths involving commercial vehicles they choose to investigate. They refuse to take third party reports of incidents. They won't give you any feedback about their response to any incident you do report. They will try to pass off any road safety issue to the Gardai, though they have no provision in law to support this approac.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360176#Comment_119360176

Maybe it was because the person making the decision took a 'it could have been me' approach that we see often voiced in court or in the media in cases like this - relating to the driver and solely to the driver.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119357996#Comment_119357996

There is no provision in law to suggest that the HSA defer to the Gardai on safety matters. Gardai have specific duties on traffic laws. HSA have specific duties on safe systems of work. There is an overlap between the two, but that doesn't let HSA off the hook. The roadway absolutely IS a workplace if you look at the definitions in the Safety Health and Welfare at Work Act. The HSA have no role in controlling who has access to a roadway.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119358134#Comment_119358134

While I'd love to see the fleet manager being prosecuted too, there is a good reason for the primary responsibility being on the driver. They need to ensure their vehicle is safe, and they need to refuse to take it out if it is not safe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119360495#Comment_119360495

If you're still using 'accident' terminology, you're definitely asking the wrong question.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361220#Comment_119361220

He hasn’t bullied anyone, anytime I’m driving I ALWAYS leave a junction clear in case a driver or indeed cyclist wants to turn. It’s only a grade A **** who would block it. The DPP rightly don’t prosecute.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119361536#Comment_119361536

The old drive "at" someone playing chicken and see who yields right of way.

Well thats never going to end badly is it...

Weepsie

The car turning was already over the line and started turning.

The car in front was moving. The car that stopped wouldn't have been blocking. He should have made progress and might have failed his test for failing to do so.

(8) A driver approaching a road junction and intending to turn right at the junction shall yield the right of way to a vehicle approaching on the same road from the opposite direction and intending to proceed straight through the junction.

Just because the dpp didn't prosecute, it doesn't mean the driver didn't do anything wrong (they did). We hear all the time of criminal behaviour on our roads being dismissed and this is had set in

Kaisr Sose

That was a very poor decision by the DPP. There was a clear onus on the driver to execute the right turn with caution. I am delighted to see Ciarán is back on the bike again.

Decisions like this set things back in terms of road safety and the willingness of AGS to investigate (though they clearly had to here due to injury arising).

What is abundantly clear is we have no robust system to protect vulnerable road users in law, and the law enforcers are willingly turning a blind eye to poor driving and parking.

Until we have a system change, any campaign for awareness or speed will be just for optics and be totally pointless, which they are. Public convictions though the courts will change behaviour much faster than TV and radio adverts.

There's a dashcam channel I watch occasionally on youtube. It's a bit better than the usual ones of cars who speed into situations or immediately sound the horn instead of lifting the foot or braking and reports the outcomes of submitting reports and videos of **** driving and in some cases cycling. I think a similar 1984 style snitch system here and a mandatory camera in cars and more importantly traffic lights and average speed cameras would do a lot to adjust the behaviour. 3 times in the last few weeks ( 2 in the car, once on the bike) I've had cars blast blast me on the right when I dared stop on an orange/red and thats just the tip of the iceberg of the poor driving I've seen and we've all seen I'm sure.