Soldier F

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

More peddling and refusal to answer the question.

Is the 'state' to be held to the same standard as a paramilitary force?

Yes or no will do blanch.

So far, apart from the vitriol because somebody has a different opinion, you have only managed to say they are the same.

We know all crime must be prosecuted by the way, so no need to point that out again. Just deal with the premise you are being asked about.

Francie, you put a question, you got an answer, you didn't like the answer, so you tried to peddle the lie that it was a different unrelated unconnected question, and got pedantic.

My opinion is there in black and white. No amount of scrambling to make it say something else will help you.

Sunny Disposition

Often thought about the soldiers involved over the years. How do you live with yourself knowing what you've done? I don't think I could, surely Soldier F would have been better to turn himself in after the GFA. It must have overshadowed a lot of his life, I presume he's around the 70 mark now and until last week the case was live. Earlier today posters with his identity were taken down in Derry, I'm guessing he needs to be in something like witness protection.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Francie, you put a question, you got an answer, you didn't like the answer, so you tried to peddle the lie that it was a different unrelated unconnected question, and got pedantic.

My opinion is there in black and white. No amount of scrambling to make it say something else will help you.

It wasn't an answer to the question I asked. You went on a rant about all crime being treated the same.
Those who know you, know why you did that.

You didn't answer a simple question, so I'll answer it based on what you said.

Your answer is No, both are the same in practical effect. The state can operate in the same way as paramilitaries if it feels it is warranted. The precedent this sets is that the state can do the same thing again.

The difference in this case is that when caught the 'state' evaded accountability and justice and then decided that too much time had passed.

Great that you only hold them to the same account as you hold the IRA, UVF etc.

mikethecop

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It wasn't an answer to the question I asked. You went on a rant about all crime being treated the same.
Those who know you, know why you did that.

You didn't answer a simple question, so I'll answer it based on what you said.

Your answer is No, both are the same in practical effect. The state can operate in the same way as paramilitaries if it feels it is warranted. The precedent this sets is that the state can do the same thing again.

The difference in this case is that when caught the 'state' evaded accountability and justice and then decided that too much time had passed.

Great that you only hold them to the same account as you hold the IRA, UVF etc.

talk about manipulation of facts :pac::pac:

Shebean

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Jesus f*cking Christ lads, have a bit of dignity and decency. The blatant Provo whataboutery is the most base level of attempting to justify what happened that day.

The wrongs of the PIRA are about as f*cking relevant as discussing the actions of Pol Pot in this thread.

The simple fact of the matter is innocent people were murdered by state forces, and that state has spent decades since covering it up and protecting the perpetrators. No amount of pointing out the wrongs committed by a different group makes that right.

You can f*ck right off with your attempts to diminish that wrongdoing, or to blacken the names of the innocent people murdered that day by proxy with your attempts to try and connect them to the PIRA.

Absolutely pathetic.

When you can't defend the indefensible and you won't respect the families, you can leave others to it or try to change the narrative to deflect from a murderous British soldier. It's shocking some choose the latter.

FrancieBrady

mikethecop wrote: »

talk about manipulation of facts :pac::pac:

What 'manipulation'?

He has stated all crimes committed should be treated equally. Therefore the logical conclusion is that he doesn't think a 'state' should be held to a higher standard.

Pretty simple. He is welcome and has been invited to clarify but refuses to address a direct question with a yes or no answer. .

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'State crime' is a much more serious crime against democracy in my opinion.

That is just your way and the SF/IRA way of saying da Brits are to blame for the Troubles.

Ridiculous IMO.

If someone is killed by a British Soldier or an IRA bomb, they are both dead.
Many an IRA man and Loyalist who murdered scores of people are walking the streets today, sure they sing songs and cheer them on, and give them plaques too.

They even have commemorations for their deeds....
Weird isnt it!

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I am ranking crimes blanch.

Funny, you have posted about 100 times when SF/PIRA came under scrutiny whey they killed babies and toddlers and women, that 'It was all wrong' and moaned about how people were ranking the victims. *

Now, of course, the shoe in on the other foot and you do your usual u-turn. You will be halfway to New Zealand soon enough with all the spinning.

*Fun Fact, the PIRA killed way more Nationalists and Catholics than the British Security forces did.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

That is just your way and the SF/IRA way of saying da Brits are to blame for the Troubles.

Ridiculous IMO.

If someone is killed by a British Soldier or an IRA bomb, they are both dead.
Many an IRA man and Loyalist who murdered scores of people are walking the streets today, sure they sing songs and cheer them on, and give them plaques too.

They even have commemorations for their deeds....
Weird isnt it!

That's another one who thinks the state and paramilitaries are the same and should not be held to a higher standard.

I'm beginning to see why there is little to no condemnation of state crimes in Ireland. The first point of call when asked about this is 'but the IRA/SF....'

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That's another one who thinks the state and paramilitaries are the same and should not be held to a higher standard.

Are you saying that the PIRA were worse than the British Security forces?
Quite an admission Francie.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Funny, you have posted about 100 times when SF/PIRA came under scrutiny whey they killed babies and toddlers and women, that 'It was all wrong' and moaned about how people were ranking the victims. *

Now, of course, the shoe in on the other foot and you do your usual u-turn. You will be halfway to New Zealand soon enough with all the spinning.

*Fun Fact, the PIRA killed way more Nationalists and Catholics than the British Security forces did.

No again Mark, I 'moan' when people 'exploit' a subjective list of some victims.

I have never ranked victims ever. And I have also been clear, what happened on this island was all wrong from the beginning. As usual YOU and others can not call out wrongdoing without offering the 'whatabout SF/IRA'.

Don't believe me? There has been a queue of posters on this thread doing just that, most recently, your good self.

johnsae2231

markodaly wrote: »

That is just your way and the SF/IRA way of saying da Brits are to blame for the Troubles.

Ridiculous IMO.

If someone is killed by a British Soldier or an IRA bomb, they are both dead.
Many an IRA man and Loyalist who murdered scores of people are walking the streets today, sure they sing songs and cheer them on, and give them plaques too.

They even have commemorations for their deeds....
Weird isnt it!

The PIRA had some of the biggest funerals in Irish history and indeed the world.

There are memorials to them all over Ireland and the world from the middle east to the USA, there are framed pictures of IRA members in the Dail.

The IRAs political wing is now the most popular party both North and South of the border.

Not weird at all for one of the many resistance groups in Ireland to British rule over hundreds of yeara commemorated and rightly so.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Are you saying that the PIRA were worse than the British Security forces?
Quite an admission Francie.

I am saying that the State' being involved in the murder of civilians worse. It is murder AND a dereliction of their stated and mandated (by those who elect them) principles of democratic rule.

Do you give the Irish government the right to kill civilians if the need arises and without any delivery of justice and accountability?

I would assume your answer is an emphatic No. Could you confirm that?

markodaly

The reason why there is still bitterness in the North is that the main actors do not want to come clean about the saga.
That includes the British Government and the SF/IRA Republicans.

Start at 13:50 and you will see an honest answer from Tony Blair about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leURXzhKIk

I would caution anyone to look a bit deeper as to why SF are very against any Truth and Reconciliation movement, despite them pretending they are for it.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have never ranked victims ever.

Yet you are keen to rank the murderers...
How very convenient :rolleyes:

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am saying that the State' being involved in the murder of civilians worse. It is murder AND a dereliction of their stated and mandated (by those who elect them) principles of democratic rule.

So, you admit that the PIRA was both undemocratic and had no mandate for their murderous rampage across the island. They were not held to a higher standard nor had to be accountable to anyone because they were simply terrorists?

Again, quite an admission. Again, they did kill far more terrorists and Catholics than the British Security forces.

johnsae2231

markodaly wrote: »

The reason why there is still bitterness in the North is that the main actors do not want to come clean about the saga.
That includes the British Government and the SF/IRA Republicans.

Start at 13:50 and you will see an honest answer from Tony Blair about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leURXzhKIk

I would caution anyone to look a bit deeper as to why SF are very against any Truth and Reconciliation movement, despite them pretending they are for it.

Ridiculous, what exactly do the IRA have to hide? The British are the only ones who have anything to hide mainly to do with the extent of which they controlled the loyalist paramilitaries.

markodaly

johnsae2231 wrote: »

Ridiculous, what exactly do the IRA have to hide? The British are the only ones who have anything to hide mainly to do with the extent of which they controlled the loyalist paramilitaries.

The IRA have lots to hide, especially where they buried people, many are still unaccounted for.

Never mind how many moles they had working for the British. I would say many embarrassing details would come out if such a Truth Commission was set up.

Modern-day SF would rather bury all this.

Fuascailteoir

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Often thought about the soldiers involved over the years. How do you live with yourself knowing what you've done? I don't think I could, surely Soldier F would have been better to turn himself in after the GFA. It must have overshadowed a lot of his life, I presume he's around the 70 mark now and until last week the case was live. Earlier today posters with his identity were taken down in Derry, I'm guessing he needs to be in something like witness protection.

I imagine he is a psychopath and doesn't have any problem sleeping at night. The reports of his conduct after his involvement indicate this. The photos of him in the immediate aftermath of bloody Sunday doesn't show someone weighted down with any guilt.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

So, you admit that the PIRA was both undemocratic and had no mandate for their murderous rampage across the island. They were not held to a higher standard nor had to be accountable to anyone because they were simply terrorists?

Again, quite an admission. Again, they did kill far more terrorists and Catholics than the British Security forces.

What convinced you a paramilitary group was 'democratic'? I CERTAINLY never claimed it and always asked you and others to show me paramilitaries and revolutionaries who 'sought a mandate'. Their mandate could only ever be guessed at.

If they were democratic they would not have been paramilitaries.

Democracy did not exist either here under British rule nor in the sectarian bigoted statlet they allowed fester until it went up in flames.

Cazale

Those involved were known and should have been brought to justice a long time ago and not by the British.

Shebean

markodaly wrote: »

The reason why there is still bitterness in the North is that the main actors do not want to come clean about the saga.
That includes the British Government and the SF/IRA Republicans.

Start at 13:50 and you will see an honest answer from Tony Blair about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-leURXzhKIk

I would caution anyone to look a bit deeper as to why SF are very against any Truth and Reconciliation movement, despite them pretending they are for it.

Where does your bitterness stem from? Why can't you respect the families of Soldier F's victims rather than trying to make it about parties or organisations you don't like? There is a SF thread. Have some respect.

johnsae2231

markodaly wrote: »

The IRA have lots to hide, especially where they buried people, many are still unaccounted for.

Never mind how many moles they had working for the British. I would say many embarrassing details would come out if such a Truth Commission was set up.

Modern-day SF would rather bury all this.

You are absolutely clueless, why on earth would Sinn Fein\IRA want to hide where they buried them people? What benefit would hiding them do? Why are Sinn Fein the only ones who are relentlessy calling for the truth and reconciliation if they are the ones who have so much to hide?

You are literally the most clear case of believing what you want to believe and ignoring everything to the contrary I have ever seen, you want to blame SF for everything and no one is going to convince you otherwise.

johnsae2231

Cazale wrote: »

Those involved were known and should have been brought to justice a long time ago and not by the British.

Justice was served on the 27th of August 1979.

Shebean

Cazale wrote: »

Those involved were known and should have been brought to justice a long time ago and not by the British.

We have had many cases where the British would use terrorist groups to carry out murders.
I would prefer if FF/FG/Green spoke firmly on Soldier F the next time they speak to Johnson. The victims and their families are not part and parcel of any tit for tat agreements.
If a British soldier murdered people in the East End of London he'd be locked up within hours.
It seems the 'British' in Northern Ireland are not as 'British' as those on their mainland.

FrancieBrady

Shebean wrote: »

We have had many cases where the British would use terrorist groups to carry out murders.
I would prefer if FF/FG/Green spoke firmly on Soldier F the next time they speak to Johnston. The victims and their families are not part and parcel of any tit for tat agreements.

Unlikely when they won't even pressure for release of the files held by the British on the bombing of their own capital city and the towns of Monaghan and Belturbet.

This thread serves a useful purpose in understanding why this is. two of the posters here are, to put it mildly, ardent supporters of the power swap parties and probably reflect the FG FF view - the British state were only expected to behave to the same standards as paramilitaries.

Miniegg

markodaly wrote:

Yet you are keen to rank the murderers... How very convenient

Victims have no rank but murderers (and who those murderers represent) absolutely do.

Terror groups killing people is completely different to an elected government murdering its own innocent citizens with impunity.

Paramilitaries don't have any responsibility to protect the citizens of Northern Ireland. How do you not see this?

Shebean

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unlikely when they won't even pressure for release of the files held by the British on the bombing of their own capital city and the towns of Monaghan and Belturbet.

This thread serves a useful purpose in understanding why this is. two of the posters here are, to put it mildly, ardent supporters of the power swap parties and probably reflect the FG FF view - the British state were only expected to behave to the same standards as paramilitaries.

Any real cross party progress toward justice and reconciliation or a UI for that matter is far less important than polls. Teaming up with SF in any regard or sharing their views is seen as politically precarious. Ministerial pensions are more important than the victims of British murder.
As you rightly point out, they won't even allow a discussion on British Soldier F murdering innocent British citizens.

mikethecop

johnsae2231 wrote: »

The PIRA had some of the biggest funerals in Irish history and indeed the world.

There are memorials to them all over Ireland and the world from the middle east to the USA, there are framed pictures of IRA members in the Dail.

The IRAs political wing is now the most popular party both North and South of the border.

Not weird at all for one of the many resistance groups in Ireland to British rule over hundreds of yeara commemorated and rightly so.

are you confusing the IRA and SF from the 20s with what exists today ?

not the same thing at all. not even close

mikethecop

johnsae2231 wrote: »

Ridiculous, what exactly do the IRA have to hide? The British are the only ones who have anything to hide mainly to do with the extent of which they controlled the loyalist paramilitaries.

still missing quite a few bodies actually ......

lot of unprosecuted war cries on both sides too

Shebean

mikethecop wrote: »

still missing quite a few bodies actually ......

lot of unprosecuted war cries on both sides too

What do you feel should be done regarding Soldier F murdering British citizens on British soil?

mikethecop

Shebean wrote: »

What do you feel should be done regarding Soldier F murdering British citizens on British soil?

he should trialed and punished if found guilty.

as with all war criminals on all sides i ve said that multiple times

Shebean

mikethecop wrote: »

he should trialed and punished if found guilty.

as with all war criminals on all sides i ve said that multiple times

Do you think the Irish government should engage with Westminster on this?
I think it's high time international human rights bodies were brought in to investigate.

mikethecop

Shebean wrote: »

Do you think the Irish government should engage with Westminster on this?
I think it's high time international human rights bodies were brought in to investigate.

who ever has information about any war crimes should engage

do you think sf should hand over information that their members have in relation to war crimes ?

Miniegg

mikethecop wrote: »

who ever has information about any war crimes should engage

do you think sf should hand over information that their members have in relation to war crimes ?

What does a British soldier murdering innocent people on the streets of Derry, and the British governments subsequent coverup, have to do with SF or the IRA?

Are you trying to paint that the victims had somehow deserved it or something?
I have no idea why does this guff keeps getting mentioned on threads about BS and Ballymurphy.

The people who were murdered were innocent, they had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

The British state murdering innocent people whom they had elected responsibility over (and still claim moral authority over) is entirely separate to the awful things that terror groups did in the north.

Shebean

mikethecop wrote: »

who ever has information about any war crimes should engage

do you think sf should hand over information that their members have in relation to war crimes ?

We know what soldier F did. All parties concerned have the information.
You are confusing other incidences, this is regarding Soldier F murdering.
I think it's rather bizarre to expect the families of these murder victims to look at other unrelated cases and accept that as anything other than some form of fobbing off.


Wrong thread. There's a SF thread. You are changing the topic. The British soldier F murdered British citizens on British soil.
Soldier F's victims were not SF or IRA.

mikethecop

Miniegg wrote: »

What does a British soldier murdering innocent people on the streets of Derry, and the British governments subsequent coverup, have to do with SF or the IRA?

Are you trying to paint that the victims had somehow deserved it or something?
I have no idea why does this guff keeps getting mentioned on threads about BS and Ballymurphy.

The people who were murdered were innocent, they had absolutely nothing to do with the IRA.

The British state murdering innocent people whom they had elected responsibility over (and still claim moral authority over) is entirely separate to the awful things that terror groups did in the north.

an the soldier should be punished accordingly as ive said a ball of times at this stage dont know how you missed that

what is wrong with identifying and punishing all war criminals ? and as one of the gov parties in the same county where this happened continues to shield war criminals it is relevant ,

you want to be out raged by that fine by me

mikethecop

Shebean wrote: »

We know what soldier F did. All parties concerned have the information.
You are confusing other incidences, this is regarding Soldier F murdering.
I think it's rather bizarre to expect the families of these murder victims to look at other unrelated cases and accept that as anything other than some form of fobbing off.


Wrong thread. There's a SF thread. You are changing the topic. The British soldier F murdered British citizens on British soil.
Soldier F's victims were not SF or IRA.

why would the victims and victims famiys of F have any interest in other war criminals ?

as above , if it upsets you thats not really anythng to do with anything

FrancieBrady

Shebean wrote: »

We know what soldier F did. All parties concerned have the information.
You are confusing other incidences, this is regarding Soldier F murdering.
I think it's rather bizarre to expect the families of these murder victims to look at other unrelated cases and accept that as anything other than some form of fobbing off.


Wrong thread. There's a SF thread. You are changing the topic. The British soldier F murdered British citizens on British soil.
Soldier F's victims were not SF or IRA.

There are those who are continuing the smear the British clung to for years of this. That the victims had it coming and were members/sympathisers with the IRA.



When the British state stooped to the level it did it was obvious there would be a cohort in Britain and Ireland who would go with them.

mikethecop

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are those who are continuing the smear the British clung to for years of this. That the victims had it coming and were members/sympathisers with the IRA.



When the British state stooped to the level it did it was obvious there would be a cohort in Britain and Ireland who would go with them.

not every one takes sides francie as you well know

some people just dont like murders regardless of their politics

Miniegg

mikethecop wrote:

what is wrong with identifying and punishing all war criminals ? and as one of the gov parties in the same county where this happened continues to shield war criminals it is relevant ,

An admirable position to take. But you aren't saying all war criminals on this thread, you are specifically mentioning IRA crimes, as if the IRA have anything to do with this.

You I'm sure well know that the British state smeared the innocent victims as terrorists and members of the IRA and republican bombers, so it's very distasteful that you would drag IRA crimes into this discussion when it is completely and utterly irrelevant. There are other threads to bash the IRA as I'm sure you know.

Fuascailteoir

Patently obvious that someone wants to derail the thread with the same old rubbish

FrancieBrady

mikethecop wrote: »

not every one takes sides francie as you well know

some people just dont like murders regardless of their politics

I can tell you this...long before those people where even born they were on a 'side'.
A 'side' Unionism and the British conspired to subdue and deprive of basic human rights. When that 'side' took to the streets to protest in the only way they could, that 'side' was mown down in the street by the state who then attempted to cover it up, whitewash it and who have now conspired to kick justice down the road to the point it cannot be delivered.

That is the 'side' I am on, I am happy and proud to be on it too.

Cazale

johnsae2231 wrote:

Justice was served on the 27th of August 1979.

Agreed. I still think those directly involved in Bloody Sunday got off lightly. They should have been brought to task.

Shebean

mikethecop wrote: »

why would the victims and victims famiys of F have any interest in other war criminals ?

as above , if it upsets you thats not really anythng to do with anything

You raised and continue to try turn the thread into one about other combatants and war criminals. I doubt they do.


I'm not upset. why would I be?
I think you are showing a lack of respect toward the families and a disregard or disinterest to Soldier F murdering.
A British soldier murdered people and the British state wants to forget all about it. That's treating the 'British' of Northern Ireland as less than. It's allowing a murderer walk free. This is the discussion. Your interest in other organisations is best served elsewhere.
It's baffling that you don't realise that.

Miniegg

Shebean wrote:

I'm not upset. why would I be? I think you are showing a lack of respect toward the families and a disregard or disinterest to Soldier F murdering. A British soldier murdered people and the British state wants to forget all about it. That's treating the 'British' of Northern Ireland as less than. It's allowing a murderer walk free. This is the discussion. Your interest in other organisations is best served elsewhere. It's baffling that you don't realise that.

I'm sure he, and the other similar posters on this thread, know exactly what they are doing.

And as much as they say the British were wrong and justice should be done, there is always a "but, what about the IRA?", which again, as they know, links innocent victims of BS and BM with the IRA.

They then equivocate the disgraceful actions of the British government (whose primary responsibility is to protect its citizens), with those of the IRA (a paramilitary group).

So really to them justice would be "great" , but they want to sow the seeds that the people who were murdered in cold blood kind of deserve it because IRA, and the British were kind of right to cover it up because IRA.

Fionn1952

Is there anyone who can tell me exactly what relevance the Provos have to this discussion apart from blatant attempts to derail discussion?

It's particularly galling when a poster who tried to accuse me of whataboutery in a different thread (because I directly responded to his post) has showed up here to rant about SF.

Repeat after me.....the people murdered by Soldier F were not members of the Provisional IRA. The actions of the Provisional IRA are not a justification for what happened on Bloody Sunday. Pointing out that the PIRA were a shower of murdering b*stards has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

mikethecop

Miniegg wrote: »

An admirable position to take. But you aren't saying all war criminals on this thread, you are specifically mentioning IRA crimes, as if the IRA have anything to do with this.

You I'm sure well know that the British state smeared the innocent victims as terrorists and members of the IRA and republican bombers, so it's very distasteful that you would drag IRA crimes into this discussion when it is completely and utterly irrelevant. There are other threads to bash the IRA as I'm sure you know.

lol

the post you quoted states ALL WAR CRIMINALS ,

as do a few other posts in this thread

Shebean

mikethecop wrote: »

lol

the post you quoted states ALL WAR CRIMINALS ,

as do a few other posts in this thread

Congratulations. I take it that's mission accomplished?
What ever floats your boat.

mikethecop

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I can tell you this...long before those people where even born they were on a 'side'.
A 'side' Unionism and the British conspired to subdue and deprive of basic human rights. When that 'side' took to the streets to protest in the only way they could, that 'side' was mown down in the street by the state who then attempted to cover it up, whitewash it and who have now conspired to kick justice down the road to the point it cannot be delivered.

That is the 'side' I am on, I am happy and proud to be on it too.

now whos derailing and deflecting ?

ill clarify so you can try deflect again ok ?

in the context of the crimes committed in NI not every one has to take a side , both can be wrong without either being right .

is that simple enough or will you need to deflect again ?