No more 4% rent increases

Baby01032012

Why match one element of how rents operate in Europe without introducing the others i.e. ability to evict for non payment. It can take years to get a non paying tenant out in Ireland.

What the latest hair brain idea from the government has done is got all landlords who had decided against giving tenants notice of a rent increase because of COVID, has forced them to now give notice to bring rent up in line with the RPZ limits before this inflation linked measure is brought in next week.

lawrencesummers

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Why match one element of how rents operate in Europe without introducing the others i.e. ability to evict for non payment. It can take years to get a non paying tenant out in Ireland.

What the latest hair brain idea from the government has done is got all landlords who had decided against giving tenants notice of a rent increase because of COVID, has forced them to now give notice to bring rent up in line with the RPZ limits before this inflation linked measure is brought in next week.

Naw, if landlords want to up the rent they can just evict the tenants under the guise of selling the house and then not sell it.

What this has done is highlight that any change to the legislation administering the market has a massive ripple effect so changes should be rare and properly thought through.

The rental market needs an over haul to make it work for everyone, tenants and landlords alike, these knee jerk reaction changes cause more problems than they solve.

Jjohnrockk

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Why match one element of how rents operate in Europe without introducing the others i.e. ability to evict for non payment. It can take years to get a non paying tenant out in Ireland.

What the latest hair brain idea from the government has done is got all landlords who had decided against giving tenants notice of a rent increase because of COVID, has forced them to now give notice to bring rent up in line with the RPZ limits before this inflation linked measure is brought in next week.

Also why not ensure E rated crap apartments CANNOT BE LET at 2000 e?

Why not ensure BER ratings are made mandatory for letting?

Why not ensure rents are capped?

Why you need 45 days notice in Dublin when house can be let in 1 week or less? Result LL keeps deposit and also, let it to make double money?

C14N

The_Conductor wrote: »

It would make a lot of sense to have a reasonable database whereby landlords and tenants could be ascribed a score based on their previous dealings- and both landlord and tenant could choose whether or not to do business with one another- based on other people's previous experiences of doing business with them

I did a market research panel for a startup that was planning something like this, maybe about a year ago now. Not sure whatever happened to that, it seemed like a good idea. General gist was that it was a sort of social media site for renting where LLs could see tenant's rental histories and check to make sure they were decent enough, and possibly even target tenants who were in the market to move if they liked the look fo them.

FileNotFound wrote: »

Since the limits came in they seem to have become a goal rather than any control and they do negatively impact the landlord who hasn't raised compared to one who has.

I also think this is a big problem with it. If you are an LL and you can only raise 4% per year, then if you don't do it, you kind of miss the chance. If in 3 years, rents go way up, you can't respond to that demand then, you have to sort of just do it gradually over time. It sets up bad incentives.

GerardKeating wrote: »

Actually one rule they should introduce, if a landlord what's to sell a house with a long standing tenant, the tenant should have the option/right to buy.

How would this work? I assume you mean they get first refusal before it goes on the market, but what stops the landlord just offering it to them at an exorbitant price?

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I agree and to add;

In Germany once you take on a lease you are given a whitewashed apartment to decorate how you want, with little intrusion possible from the landlord.

My brother lives in the Netherlands and the situation there is similar. Apartment usually comes pretty bare, sometimes without even curtains, but people have a lot of free reign to decorate it how they want. They can paint it, bring their own furniture, even replace the flooring and stuff like that. It's a much nicer experience than in Ireland where 90% of rentals are already fully furnished (often with shoddy old furniture that would cost more money to get rid of than it would sell for) and painted/carpeted an inoffensive beige in every room.

My parnter and I had a lot of furniture of our own and it was so difficult trying to find an unfurnished apartment for ourselves. We eventually settled on one that was sort of partially-furnished as a compromise, but felt very lucky to get it.

Mad_maxx

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I agree and to add;

In Germany once you take on a lease you are given a whitewashed apartment to decorate how you want, with little intrusion possible from the landlord. Leases can last as long as you need them but you always have a fallback of being able to give notice to move out, you aren't forced to stay anywhere. I understand that you pay at the end of the month as well for your rent so only need to put up the deposit before you move in.

Importantly, as well, rents are probably 40% cheaper in Germany than Dublin with purchasing power 30% higher. We should really be looking to emulate Germany with our rental market including the cost. It is not as if salaries are higher in Ireland than Germany so there is little justification to allow our rental market keep growing into a bubble!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Germany&city1=Dublin&city2=Hamburg&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Tenants in germany dont get to stop paying rent for two years , trash the place and walk away with immunity like is the case here

Germany imposes rules upon tenants that do not happen here

Mad_maxx

I doubt landlords will be able to put through rent reviews by the july 9th date ?

If the RTB dont have to be informed of a rent change for three months after the rent review notice takes place ? , what piece of official data exists which will predate next Friday July 9th ?

Do landlords simultaneously send the RTB notice of a rent review issuance which the tenant receives prior to july 9th ?

Dav010

Jjohnrockk wrote: »

Also why not ensure E rated crap apartments CANNOT BE LET at 2000 e?

Why not ensure BER ratings are made mandatory for letting?

Why not ensure rents are capped?

Why you need 45 days notice in Dublin when house can be let in 1 week or less? Result LL keeps deposit and also, let it to make double money?

I’m sure you know that Ber rating is a legal requirement for letting, this rating is there for the tenant to consider when deciding whether to rent every property. If you need the Government to protect you from your own ability to make that decision, legislation alone will not help you.

Rents are effectively capped in RPZ’s by limits on increases.

The notice periods favour the tenant more than the LL, I suspect many LLs would favour your opinion that notice periods should be shorter.

Flinty997

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

I agree and to add;

In Germany once you take on a lease you are given a whitewashed apartment to decorate how you want, with little intrusion possible from the landlord. Leases can last as long as you need them but you always have a fallback of being able to give notice to move out, you aren't forced to stay anywhere. I understand that you pay at the end of the month as well for your rent so only need to put up the deposit before you move in.

Importantly, as well, rents are probably 40% cheaper in Germany than Dublin with purchasing power 30% higher. We should really be looking to emulate Germany with our rental market including the cost. It is not as if salaries are higher in Ireland than Germany so there is little justification to allow our rental market keep growing into a bubble!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Germany&city1=Dublin&city2=Hamburg&tracking=getDispatchComparison

Germany also has a housing and rental crisis. But they also have protections for Landlords, and higher deposits. Be interesting if people want all Germany's rules or just the ones that suit them.

Flinty997

topdecko wrote: »

Landlords can make a profit - just not an exorbitant one. Our parents generation (50 -70) have made a killing. You are selling your house and will make a tidy profit on it no doubt. Rent costing more than a mortgage by some margin is ridiculous and plainly wrong - any system that allows that to happen is broken and needs to change. Unfortunately politicians in their wisdom and as a knee jerk reaction to the financial crash allowed corporate investors in with generous tax breaks and they have hovered up the available properties.
Ireland is a great place to live but younger generation being shafted when it comes to housing

If you want to limit profit you have to limit risk.

Otherwise the price is simply a result of limit supply.

If you want to increase supply, you either encourage people to build to rent, it build it yourself.

Our population has increased massively in the last 15 yrs. Previously we had net emigration. Now we have met immigration. Yet emigration isn't considered by the many people. Used to be the norm.

Amadan Dubh

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Tenants in germany dont get to stop paying rent for two years , trash the place and walk away with immunity like is the case here

Germany imposes rules upon tenants that do not happen here

Yes, exactly. This is so crucial to a functioning rental market. It is unanimous I would've thought among landlords and tenants that this should be the case yet somehow legislation has crept in via (probbaly) some well funded, opaque "charity".

Amadan Dubh

Flinty997 wrote: »

Germany also has a housing and rental crisis. But they also have protections for Landlords, and higher deposits. Be interesting if people want all Germany's rules or just the ones that suit them.

They have a housing bubble as well, correct. I'm not sure what protections you think landlords have in Germany that are unreasonable and would not be accepted in Ireland? It is not normal or healthy for the market to let the scum scam the system for a rent free house as they know how the game works.

Flinty997

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

They have a housing bubble as well, correct. I'm not sure what protections you think landlords have in Germany that are unreasonable and would not be accepted in Ireland? It is not normal or healthy for the market to let the scum scam the system for a rent free house as they know how the game works.

Unreasonable no. But since there have been no protections introduced for Landlords as long as can remember, I think it's unlikely they are going to start now. They've only increased the protections for tenants in all that time. Which is fine. But it distorts the market.

Off the top of my head I think a 3 month deposit is common in Germany. They've just limited it here to one month.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/tenants-cannot-be-forced-to-pay-deposits-of-more-than-two-months-rent-1.4589012%3fmode=amp

Mad_maxx

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

They have a housing bubble as well, correct. I'm not sure what protections you think landlords have in Germany that are unreasonable and would not be accepted in Ireland? It is not normal or healthy for the market to let the scum scam the system for a rent free house as they know how the game works.

Germany doesnt engage in childlike narratives like we do here , in Ireand all tenants are poor helpless victims being oppressed by evil capitalist landlords , the media bang out this message in polite words all of the time

Saudades

Was this new legislation announced in the press deliberately a few days in advance to give landlords a chance to get in one last increase using the old 4% rule?

Seems there's nothing to prevent hundreds or even thousands of tenants being served a rent review notice this weekend at the 4% rule rates (if they haven't already had an increase in the past 12 months).

The question is if the law will recognize the tenant's new contract date as either the date of the rent review being served (which could be today if hand-delivered by the landlord), or the date of the actual rent increase (which will be in 90 days - well after the legislation official starts).

Mad_maxx

Saudades wrote: »

Was this new legislation announced in the press deliberately a few days in advance to give landlords a chance to get in one last increase using the old 4% rule?

Seems there's nothing to prevent hundreds or even thousands of tenants being served a rent review notice this weekend at the 4% rule rates (if they haven't already had an increase in the past 12 months).

The question is if the law will recognize the tenant's new contract date as either the date of the rent review being served (which could be today if hand-delivered by the landlord), or the date of the actual rent increase (which will be in 90 days - well after the legislation official starts).

the opposition will shout and scream about landlords rushing to issue rent review notices by july 9th and the government will as usual bow to pressure from the dail opposition and media

besides , how can landlords prove they got a rent review issued prior to july 9th if there is no mechanism to also notify the RTB of said issuance ?

the tenant could just deny they received it on time , not like landlords upload details onto the RTB site

FishOnABike

Mad_maxx wrote: »

the opposition will shout and scream about landlords rushing to issue rent review notices by july 9th and the government will as usual bow to pressure from the dail opposition and media

besides , how can landlords prove they got a rent review issued prior to july 9th if there is no mechanism to also notify the RTB of said issuance ?

the tenant could just deny they received it on time , not like landlords upload details onto the RTB site

Quite simple, send the notice of rent review by recorded delivery.

Mad_maxx

FishOnABike wrote: »

Quite simple, send the notice of rent review by recorded delivery.

whats that ?

registered post ?

1874

Mad_maxx wrote: »

whats that ?

registered post ?

Swiftpost is classed as recorded delivery when I made enquiries, could check with An Post, but it doesnt need anyone to sign for it, which is an advantage.

fash

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Tenants in germany dont get to stop paying rent for two years , trash the place and walk away with immunity like is the case here

Germany imposes rules upon tenants that do not happen here

Germany also tends to have 3 month deposits, long term leases (5 years+) which it actually costs to get out of; some apartments come without any kitchen (you need to buy your own moveable one from e.g. Ikea).
Definitely a far superior market but for people who are only staying somewhere for a year, it can be not quite as advantageous.

Amadan Dubh

fash wrote: »

Germany also tends to have 3 month deposits, long term leases (5 years+) which it actually costs to get out of; some apartments come without any kitchen (you need to buy your own moveable one from e.g. Ikea).
Definitely a far superior market but for people who are only staying somewhere for a year, it can be not quite as advantageous.

Giving people that with 40% less rents and giving people the chance to rent a place to themselves at an affordable price and you'll find that most people will be okay with trying to emulate the German model.

The bad tenant is a tiny proportion of the market here so, while politically unpopular, it would not be unpopular among the vast majority of tenants and rents to fix the mechanism to remove poor and non-paying tenants.

Flinty997

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Giving people that with 40% less rents and giving people the chance to rent a place to themselves at an affordable price and you'll find that most people will be okay with trying to emulate the German model.

The bad tenant is a tiny proportion of the market here so, while politically unpopular, it would not be unpopular among the vast majority of tenants and rents to fix the mechanism to remove poor and non-paying tenants.

There's been massive resistance to higher deposits and now they are being legislated against. So no most do not want the Germany model. Because it has protections for Landlords.

Even the idea of handing back a rental freshly painted nothing broken, and empty of all rubbish wouldn't be accepted.

Mad_maxx

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Giving people that with 40% less rents and giving people the chance to rent a place to themselves at an affordable price and you'll find that most people will be okay with trying to emulate the German model.

The bad tenant is a tiny proportion of the market here so, while politically unpopular, it would not be unpopular among the vast majority of tenants and rents to fix the mechanism to remove poor and non-paying tenants.

Depends what you mean by "bad tenants " ?

I would say bad tenants are a lot more than a tiny proportion for the simple reason the law encourages bad tenants

Amadan Dubh

Flinty997 wrote: »

There's been massive resistance to higher deposits and now they are being legislated against. So no most do not want the Germany model. Because it has protections for Landlords.

Even the idea of handing back a rental freshly painted nothing broken, and empty of all rubbish wouldn't be accepted.

Yes, but it's not about picking and choosing bits that suit some but not all. This is exactly where the problem to date has arisen, with short term, hairbrained, populist measures. The deposit rule wouldn't be as much of an issue if rents were significantly cheaper for example! Further, you don't pay rent until the end of the month - so you front 3 months deposit, noting rents are cheaper in this scenario, move in and pay your first month's rent at the end of the month. But the bigger picture is that this change would be a component in a bigger picture.

1874

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Yes, but it's not about picking and choosing bits that suit some but not all. This is exactly where the problem to date has arisen, with short term, hairbrained, populist measures. The deposit rule wouldn't be as much of an issue if rents were significantly cheaper for example! Further, you don't pay rent until the end of the month - so you front 3 months deposit, noting rents are cheaper in this scenario, move in and pay your first month's rent at the end of the month. But the bigger picture is that this change would be a component in a bigger picture.

Outside of state and other organisations interference,
Can you see that working here?
Pay in arrears for the last month, people would clear off and no way to make them pay, wait years at the RTB? who may decide against you on a technicality, like a typographical error, or something inconsequential to a fault by another party.


Paying in arrears works if you are paying 2 or 3 months deposit, because it is the same thing as paying in advance and paying 2 months deposit, the risk is less because there is cover if the tenant fails to comply with their obligations, AND Im going to assume with their rental levels they have enough sense to realise private rentals either directly rented or through agency's form a large part of the supply and not to deter that have a system that provides stability for all AND doesn't let tenants or landlords all have it one way where the worst offenders walk off into the sunset for doing everything wrong or being the worst person/breaking laws/refusing to pay/comply with their specific obligations.

Flinty997

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

Yes, but it's not about picking and choosing bits that suit some but not all. This is exactly where the problem to date has arisen, with short term, hairbrained, populist measures. The deposit rule wouldn't be as much of an issue if rents were significantly cheaper for example! Further, you don't pay rent until the end of the month - so you front 3 months deposit, noting rents are cheaper in this scenario, move in and pay your first month's rent at the end of the month. But the bigger picture is that this change would be a component in a bigger picture.

You can only get low rents with an abundance of supply or govt intervention. In that they build or control the properties.

It's got nothing to do with deposits. You only need deposits because you are renting privately. If you don't want deposits, don't use (or outsource it to) the private rental market.

Deposits could be controlled by third party like a bond system. But the govt doesn't want the expense of that.

Flinty997

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Depends what you mean by "bad tenants " ?

I would say bad tenants are a lot more than a tiny proportion for the simple reason the law encourages bad tenants

Tenants who use their deposit as last months rent, are arguably bad tenants if we are being pedantic.

Saudades

Looks like this bill almost went through 6 years ago as this article is dated June 01 2015;

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/cost-of-renting-will-be-linked-to-inflation-31268699.html

Presumably they scrapped the idea in favour of RPZ and HAP instead, although they started 18 months later.

Mad_maxx

Saudades wrote: »

Looks like this bill almost went through 6 years ago as this article is dated June 01 2015;

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/cost-of-renting-will-be-linked-to-inflation-31268699.html

Presumably they scrapped the idea in favour of RPZ and HAP instead, although they started 18 months later.

maybe it would have been better had they agreed on Kellys proposal , the longer term lease - tax friendly options available to landlords might have been welcomed ?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Flinty997 wrote: »

Tenants who use their deposit as last months rent, are arguably bad tenants if we are being pedantic.

True.

Deposits are horrible in Ireland. Landlords abuse it and tenants deposits as rent. There's no protection and defense about either.

Fol20

topdecko wrote: »

Rent costing more than a mortgage by some margin is ridiculous and plainly wrong - any system that allows that to happen is broken and needs to change.

Please explain why?

Every business where you have a rental model vs purchase model will always be more expensive to rent. EG car rental vs car purchase. tool hire vs purchase.