Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

Shuffl_in

Surprised by how little pushback the departments are getting. We're being brought back in with zero flexibility and I can only think of one person out of 20+ who is happy with it.

Nobody expects the ever-dormant Fórsa to wake up and speak out. It's the most important issue for their members in a very long time but they're pretty ineffective.

Plenty of unhappy workers.

thomasj

Forsa is in talks with DPER atm with regards to the policy . Individual departments won't issue their guidelines on WFH until DPER release theirs.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625637#Comment_118625637

We can be sure DPER won’t offer anything remotely (no pun intended) similar to most of the private sector who will clearly opt for remote working to reduce office costs and staff renting costs (increasing daily).

Senior management won’t want change.

If anyone has experience leaving the public for the private sector please get in contact. Top graduates will start moving there soon on graduation once they see how slow and backwards the Civil Service is. Imagine working a few months from a beach in Spain. Nothing the CS could do could compare to that anyway.

leanbh

The EU directive on work life balance 2019/1158 (which includes right to request remote working if you have kids under 8/ disabled relative) does have to be transposed in some form by August this year (because the EU has told us to do this). At that point private sector employees can rely on whatever legislation is put in place. But this isn't some huge gift from Varadkar to employees.

This is a legally binding obligation under EU rules (and i bet that directive will be interpreted as narrowly as legally possible)

However, Civil servants can rely on the directive since 2019 and don't have to wait for any legislation. This is because of the principle of "direct effect".

Directives once published have to be immediately applied by public bodies.

But no-one appears to be aware of this least of all the unions??!

Makes you wonder where the unions stand on the issue of remote working !

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625881#Comment_118625881

Unions are all previous colleagues/friends with senior management and HR APs and above. They won’t bite the hand that feeds them anyway.

Ollie321

Have there been any discussions regarding what blended working is actually going to mean regarding flexi and the likes of opting to WFH on a day you are due in office and attending office on a different day etc. While some Depts have taken a Dept wide approach to date not all have, if local management impose less flexible conditions staff will opt to seek a move

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625933#Comment_118625933

this isnt it.

i think unions, ruled over at the top by idealogues as far as can be discerned, have long-reaching concerns over what "work from anywhere" does for security of roles.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625881#Comment_118625881

What? This is not how direct effect works at all.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625989#Comment_118625989

In my department even though we’re going in 2 days WFH 3 days at the moment, Flexi is completely disbanded. Obligatory 2 hour lunch means I have to stay in later - missing the 6pm train :(

All in all, my department has used WFH to take more from lower down staff. My contract states Im on flexi yet they took that from me and have not even said when they will bring it back. Don’t get me wrong, I was happy to put in extra hours as I had no commute. However, currently its commute without flexi. Worst of both worlds.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626145#Comment_118626145

You have to take a two hour obligatory lunch?

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626155#Comment_118626155

Yes. We were told by management to clock in in the morning and out in the evening when we leave working. The system takes out the 2 hours on the clocking system automatically. However, I usually work till 1.30 anyway as senior management can schedule a meeting anytime even 12.30.

caviardreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626211#Comment_118626211

It only takes 2 hours if you don't clock in and out for lunch (as it's the default), so clock in and out for lunch instead and just take an hour or whatever

Burgo

Had a short discussion with our Forsa rep on Friday. It seems the main sticking point between the union and dper is over flexi, and how it would work in a blended arrangement. They also said when I enquired about full remote working that it wasnt being discussed at all, just the blended working.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626289#Comment_118626289

Well, that’s shite. Even before the pandemic I was losing flexi hours at the end of the month anyway. So I’d be happy to remove flexi for the days WFH. Clock in and out for lunch/when entering and leaving when Im in the office then so I can get the train. Simples.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626211#Comment_118626211

Why don't you just clock in and out for the time you actually take for lunch?

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626383#Comment_118626383

I will now, thx. Especially as we’re returning to the office, time I take back my rights.

i was not clocking as my manager told me not to clock lunches while WFH.

Flinty997

Everyone working 9-5 well that will help with the traffic.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626458#Comment_118626458

Dreading it! Back to traffic and the old grind as the boomers want. They won’t be here to deal with the climate change impact, it will be for the younger generation to handle.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626506#Comment_118626506

I thought it was the younger staff who want to go back lol

martysparty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625063#Comment_118625063

Have little to no faith in whatever wfh policy they are developing. Any wfh policy that had to be put on hold in November due to omicron won't be worth much. What I mean by that is if the people developing the policy felt they couldn't continue work on the policy remotely they probably have an office first mentality.

Addle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118625881#Comment_118625881

What about people with no dependants?

Augme

I'll take a blended approach. Ideally two wfh three in the office. Forsa being incompetent won't make it easy though. Will be very interesting to see what they do with flexi too. Not at all impressed about going back to the office when flexi isn't being offered and I still have to clock in. It's an insult really.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626606#Comment_118626606

Lol

what young person wants to go back to office politics, commuting and paying half their salary or more on rent. Even people in Dublin don’t want the hour commute. Young people I have spoken to want Anchor days. Studies show its most affective in building relationships as there’s a get-up-and-go mentality to meeting new people. After a week in the office, groups will have formed and people get stuck in the same weekly rut.

young people i know have already met up outside of the office setting. We have a buddy system in my department and we all met already for drinks.

whoever told you its young people wanting to get back is clearly pitting young and older people against each other. My cousin was out on the streets protesting with Greta Thunberg over Climate Change she’s devastated to see the return of traffic (which btw is way more than our poor farmers produce who are having their livelihoods threatened and bad for our economy - we could be the breadbasket of Europe we have some much good cattle and not droughts).

maybe there is one or two old fashioned young people wanting office gossip but I really haven’t met them in my circle anyway.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626927#Comment_118626927

The aim of the directive is probably to take the pressure off child care and health care only. Reducing costs for Governments. For example it may be the case that I provide palliative care at home instead of the government hiring an expensive home nurse or re-opening regional hospital palliative care units (many closed last year due to costs).

Other workers are cash cows providing revenue in their commute and at coffee shops etc.

If you’re hoping all civil servants will get WFH it is best look to the private sector.

leanbh

The EU directive on work life balance is worth pursuing for those civil servants who want wfh to look after children/ disabled dependants/ elderly relatives.

and it most definitely is directly effective for civil/public servants . See  Foster v British Gas plc 

In practice, I think this whole wfh is going to be the future. I honestly don't know why the unions aren't pushing it.

Like Avenger2020, I think in the short term, the private sector is much more receptive to it if you want it on a fulltime basis

billyhead

From what I hear the DPER policy when it's published will be 3 days in and 2 at home. Obviously we would all like more days at home but it's better than nothing I suppose. Our section have been more productive working from home. How is dragging us into an office any benefit.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627099#Comment_118627099

Most private sector jobs will be at best 3 in and 2 at home.

blue_blue

I'm actually LOL'ing at all the talk re: Public vs. Private.

Private will be the one sector that will be DEMADING their workers return for the max 5 days a week. Mark my words.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118626991#Comment_118626991

That's exactly what you are doing setting one group against the other.

There are people of all ages with similar wishes with regard to all these issues. Truely bizarre you think it's an age thing.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627730#Comment_118627730

A range of private sector companies across a variety of fields have already implemented a WFH full-time policy. Dropbox, Novartis, Shopify, spotify, Facebook/Meta, Zillow to name a few.

in fact the new Financial services start-up (often said to be the future of FS) Square quickly agreed a WFH full time policy after Twitter said it was WFH full time.

Google is doing a hybrid model. Microsoft also hybrid but you can apply for full time WFH through your manager.

frankly, if any private sector is reading this I would WFH for less money than I am on now. Rent and bills and costs in Dublin take over half my salary.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627817#Comment_118627817

Some will have have full time WFH, I have it with my company, but most won't offer it. The companies you list there are all fairly high end. Although of course you could always apply for one of the full time WFH companies if that is your preference.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627817#Comment_118627817

Why don't you apply to those companies that have full WFH policies?

It would make sense given how important it is to you.

Moll68

I know I wont be popular for saying this but it seems that the WFH is only working for those working in the public sector but it doesnt appear to be working for someone trying to contact most departments in the public sector when help is needed - I have spent 2 hours this morning trying to get help with a problem logging in to mygov.ie account and I was on hold for 52 minutes to one dept and 45 mins to another dept and still have no resolution - surely these wait times indicate that the WFH is not working for the general public. I can totally see why people want it but we have to get back to having services available to the general public also. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Sarn

I don’t see what your issue has to do with WFH? People are still working, regardless of where they are.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628555#Comment_118628555

It doesn't matter if people are still working, the issue is can we say that the level of service provided to service users has remained the same?

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628555#Comment_118628555

Some are. Some are definitely going missing in the middle of the day. You can even see that internally when some sections are at times uncontactable. That never happened when everyone was in the office.

Externally, if citizens are not receiving the same level of service as before something is off.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628625#Comment_118628625

maybe I missed it but what has that got to do with a long wait time on the phone for a particular office. Is there just an assumption that is connected with remote working - the office may just be busy/understaffed and everyone is in the office.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628625#Comment_118628625

DSP and Revenue staff still have front facing public service offices open anyway. I presume the customer call staff are still working normal hours. Waiting on the phone was still a problem pre pandemic.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628399#Comment_118628399

sorry I think I should have asked you this. How do you know it is connected to remote working. The office may just be busy?

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628713#Comment_118628713

There are clearly a number of citizen facing services that were severly disrupted during the WFH period.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628742#Comment_118628742

yeah that wasnt what I asked but thanks and yes remote working doesnt work in all situations.

A long wait time to offices is not unique so I was wondering how do they know is it connected to remote working for the offices they were trying to contact. Staff could be in the office - just busy.

Dr. Bre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627631#Comment_118627631

If true then that’s disappointing. The blended has to include majority days wfh or it’s a farce .

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628742#Comment_118628742

yes when the public couldnt attend or staff couldnt attend the office. All circumstances beyond anyone's control given we are still in a pandemic.

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628763#Comment_118628763

They could be, of course. But if services are worse than they were before the pandemic (and in some areas they clearly are) it is not unreasonable to say WFH does not work (as efficently) in those areas.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628713#Comment_118628713

Exactly, the office may be busy. Look at DSP and Passport office run off their feet. Also likely that staff in many departments simply haven’t been given a phone at home. My device has but many departments are working with old laptop devices.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628878#Comment_118628878

true but I dont think anyone has ever argued that remote working can work everywhere. It is also a jump to blame remote working solely for services being worse (if thats true). Remote working during covid is not the same as a long term plan for remote working.

Could be a lot of other factors.

gauchesnell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628898#Comment_118628898

see wow I didnt know that was still a thing. Could be an issue for sure.

Avenger2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628119#Comment_118628119

Cos Im a Civil Servant. Have been for years. Im good at my job. Why should I leave without a fight just because people refuse to move with the times and new technology.

Its sad its come to this. But u will see I have asked previously how to move from public to private. My fear is private sector will see me as a luddite neanderthal in their world. (This has been discussed up this thread.)

LegallyAbroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628933#Comment_118628933

Having worked in both I find the private and public sectors very similar.

I wouldn't be afraid of it all it, I were you.

If you're good at your CS job you'll be good at a private sector job.

Of course, most of the private sector will not be doing WFH and will be doing hybrid, just like the CS. My old employer, for example, will be the same or more days back in the office than the CS.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628916#Comment_118628916

It is nearly 2 years in now, I would think if you can't do it to the same level remotely at this point it will never happen.