House Re-Wire - New stuff I should consider

lobbylad

Hi,

We're getting a c. 50 yr old house re-wired, mostly the upstairs as downstairs was done about 16 yrs ago following an extension/re-works.

We're also getting solar panels on the roof (have a plug in hybrid car).

Is there anything that I should consider, job is nearly all about some extra sockets and re-doing lights etc.

I will get cat-6 run back to a central spot (probably in the attic) and will maybe get USB charger faceplates.

Any recommendations?

Terry..

lobbylad wrote: »

Hi,

We're getting a c. 50 yr old house re-wired, mostly the upstairs as downstairs was done about 16 yrs ago following an extension/re-works.

We're also getting solar panels on the roof (have a plug in hybrid car).

Is there anything that I should consider, job is nearly all about some extra sockets and re-doing lights etc.

I will get cat-6 run back to a central spot (probably in the attic) and will maybe get USB charger faceplates.

Any recommendations?

There's a lot of changes in-built into the new rules so there's that

I wouldn't be a fan of in-built usb chargers, the technology moves on and you're left with a semi obsolete faceplate

Beta Ray Bill

I'm just finished doing up my house

My house was already re-wired so there wasn't a whole lot to do.

I did however run cat 6 to every room in the house
8 cables to living room and dining room (4 in each corner)
It's a good idea to make sure that at least 1 set of four comes out where the UPC box is.
When bringing all the cables back to a central location, use a patch panel and case. DO NOT waste your time trying to stick RJ45 connectors on the end of each cable

4 cables to each bedroom (This will negate the need for little 4 port switches)

If you're going to have a wall mounted TV, now is the time to bury the following items in the wall with one end coming out where the TV will be and the other close to ground level:
4 hmdi cables (in case one breaks)
RF cable in case you decide to use an old console
Optical Sound cables
Network cable

Additionally, you should wire up a double socket behind where the TV will be.
This will mean you have no wires around the TV

Finally, and most importantly of all!
RUN A NEUTRAL TO THE LIGHT SWITCHES!!!!!
You cannot have smart switches without a neutral going to the switch.
I made this mistake and I am REALLY regretting it.

Terry..

TV I suppose is an obvious one

There'd be a bit of work and planning if u want a fancy setup

Not sure if the relevance of having a PHEV to Solar PV unless you also add in a battery, because you're most likely going to be charging it at night when there's no sun.

lobbylad

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I'm just finished doing up my house

My house was already re-wired so there wasn't a whole lot to do.

I did however run cat 6 to every room in the house
8 cables to living room and dining room (4 in each corner)
It's a good idea to make sure that at least 1 set of four comes out where the UPC box is.
When bringing all the cables back to a central location, use a patch panel and case. DO NOT waste your time trying to stick RJ45 connectors on the end of each cable

4 cables to each bedroom (This will negate the need for little 4 port switches)

If you're going to have a wall mounted TV, now is the time to bury the following items in the wall with one end coming out where the TV will be and the other close to ground level:
4 hmdi cables (in case one breaks)
RF cable in case you decide to use an old console
Optical Sound cables
Network cable

Additionally, you should wire up a double socket behind where the TV will be.
This will mean you have no wires around the TV

Finally, and most importantly of all!
RUN A NEUTRAL TO THE LIGHT SWITCHES!!!!!
You cannot have smart switches without a neutral going to the switch.
I made this mistake and I am REALLY regretting it.

Thanks, will be using a patch panel for the ethernet, agreed, fitting RF-45s is messy.
Wasn't aware of the neutral for smart switches, no plan on getting any yet, but that might change as the years go by!

lobbylad

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

Not sure if the relevance of having a PHEV to Solar PV unless you also add in a battery, because you're most likely going to be charging it at night when there's no sun.

Good point, though I do WFH a lot, it's probably a good idea to check the prices for a battery setup.

Beta Ray Bill

lobbylad wrote: »

Thanks, will be using a patch panel for the ethernet, agreed, fitting RF-45s is messy.
Wasn't aware of the neutral for smart switches, no plan on getting any yet, but that might change as the years go by!

Also get a POE switch in case you want to power something off the Ethernet cables. (Cameras are a good example)

Someone told me that keeping an old-style analogue ESB meter is better than going for one of their new meters, because if any electrical short happened with the analogue meter in place, the ESB are liable for damages. I'm not sure how true this is, but the ESB might ask you to update your meter system if you're overhauling the electrics in the house.

Terry..

TimberTones wrote: »

Someone told me that keeping an old-style analogue ESB meter is better than going for one of their new meters, because if any electrical short happened with the analogue meter in place, the ESB are liable for damages. I'm not sure how true this is, but the ESB might ask you to update your meter system if you're overhauling the electrics in the house.

Don't think so tbh

alan4cult

TimberTones wrote: »

Someone told me that keeping an old-style analogue ESB meter is better than going for one of their new meters, because if any electrical short happened with the analogue meter in place, the ESB are liable for damages. I'm not sure how true this is, but the ESB might ask you to update your meter system if you're overhauling the electrics in the house.

Don't think that's true.

10-10-20

lobbylad wrote: »

Thanks, will be using a patch panel for the ethernet, agreed, fitting RF-45s is messy.
Wasn't aware of the neutral for smart switches, no plan on getting any yet, but that might change as the years go by!

Use deep back-boxes, well inseted into the walls, so that you can fit dimmers/smart-switches in to the box.
Properly size the feed to the electrical car charger so that you're not going to limit it by the cable/breaker size in the future (ie, 7kw/32A if possible).
Run CAT6 cables into locations where you might install WiFi mesh-AP's, such as hidden in the ceiling or on top of high counters, etc.

2011

Personally I prefer to use a Philips Hue type solution rather than smart switches to control lights. This means that regardless of the wiring lamps can be controlled individually in terms of how much they are dimmed as well as collie even when sharing the same switch wire. This offers far more flexibility, scenes can be set and wireless motion detectors can also be used. Also neutrals are not required at light switches.
Other features:
- Wireless light switches
- Google Home / Alex integration
- Geo fencing
- Additional swicthes can be added withiout any rewiring
- Sun set / sun rise switching
- Can be programmed via smart phone app

Also, IKEA offer a low cost smart lamp that integrates fully with the Philips Hue system. I have around a dozen of these and so far my experience has been very positive.

Having said that I use plenty of Sonoff smart switches for other functions in my home.

On another note surge protection is something that should also be considered when rewiring.

Terry..

2011 wrote: »

Personally I prefer to use a Philips Hue type solution rather than smart switches to control lights. This means that regardless of the wiring lamps can be controlled individually in terms of how much they are dimmed as well as collie even when sharing the same switch wire. This offers far more flexibility, scenes can be set and wireless motion detectors can also be used. Also neutrals are not required at light switches.
Other features:
- Wireless light switches
- Google Home / Alex integration
- Geo fencing
- Additional swicthes can be added withiout any rewiring
- Sun set / sun rise switching
- Can be programmed via smart phone app

Also, IKEA offer a low cost smart lamp that integrates fully with the Philips Hue system. I have around a dozen of these and so far my experience has been very positive.

Having said that I use plenty of Sonoff smart switches for other functions in my home.

On another note surge protection is something that should also be considered when rewiring.

Is the SPD a requirement for the main board on this upgrade ?

Would the main board even needed to be brought up to IS0101
There's a lot of changes on the main boards

Cerco

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

I'm just finished doing up my house

Finally, and most importantly of all!
RUN A NEUTRAL TO THE LIGHT SWITCHES!!!!!
You cannot have smart switches without a neutral going to the switch.
I made this mistake and I am REALLY regretting it.

Well you can get smart switches from Amazon which do not need a neutral. They use a capacitor to simulate the neutral.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=smart+switch+no+neutral+required&ref=nb_sb_noss

Terry..

Every domestic installation I seen was being done with t+e drops to the switch going back 15yrs ago

Have a lot gone back to singles or what

I'm sure 3 plate is completely gone , a terrible system except for convenience on bungalows

The t+e switch drops wasn't being done for smart switches that time ,it was purely for simplicity and convenience of connecting the light fittings and spots, much easier to troubleshoot issues as well

The convenience of having the neutral at the switch came much later

punisher5112

Rcbos instead of mcbs .....

Terry..

punisher5112 wrote: »

Rcbos instead of mcbs .....

Does the main board need to be brought up to IS10101 on this job theres a lot of changes there including the rcbos

One of the domestic guys would know the answer

Terry..

The t+e switch drop is the only sytem of the 3 that effectively isolates the fitting when you switch off

It's a important consideration as this is the general trend in domestic work

To make everything idiot proof

ArrBee

Put some proper consideration into where all the cat 6 will feed back to.
I wouldn't put it in my attic as its to hot and dusty.

punisher5112

ArrBee wrote: »

Put some proper consideration into where all the cat 6 will feed back to.
I wouldn't put it in my attic as its to hot and dusty.

Utility room or under the stairs would be my way.

jester77

punisher5112 wrote: »

Utility room or under the stairs would be my way.

This is important, attic will be way too warm, especially in Summer. Any hardware you would have running there will be in danger of overheating. Somewhere cool and dry, I have mine in the basement.

Also consider running cat to ceiling locations for APs, security cameras, etc and you can then power these over POE.

KCross

lobbylad wrote: »

We're getting a c. 50 yr old house re-wired, mostly the upstairs as downstairs was done about 16 yrs ago following an extension/re-works.

We're also getting solar panels on the roof (have a plug in hybrid car).

Since you already have a PHEV I presume you have thought about an external charge point?

Maybe stating what you already know but you should have a dedicated circuit from an external charging location back to the consumer unit. Possibly even run two cables now to allow a second charge point be added in future as the cable run is the hard bit. Use 10mm² cable. 6mm² will likely do, but go with 10mm².

Also run cat6 cable from your meter box to this location so that you can put in a CT clamp which will allow the charge point to sense the whole house load. Very important for future proofing if/when you decide to go full BEV or even have two EV's.

You may also need a CT clamp from the location where you will put your Solar PV inverter back to the charge point location so another Cat6 there.

Jeremy Beagle wrote: »

Not sure if the relevance of having a PHEV to Solar PV unless you also add in a battery, because you're most likely going to be charging it at night when there's no sun.

Modern charge points will feed excess Solar PV electricity to an EV if its at home by day.

ArrBee wrote: »

Put some proper consideration into where all the cat 6 will feed back to.
I wouldn't put it in my attic as its to hot and dusty.

Good shout on that.

In addition, put in ducting to that location to allow additional cables to be easily run to it from outside.... in particular the likes of Fibre-to-the-home cable or any gate automation or the like.

Terry..

KCross wrote: »

Since you already have a PHEV I presume you have thought about an external charge point?

Maybe stating what you already know but you should have a dedicated circuit from an external charging location back to the consumer unit. Possibly even run two cables now to allow a second charge point be added in future as the cable run is the hard bit. Use 10mm² cable. 6mm² will likely do, but go with 10mm².

Also run cat6 cable from your meter box to this location so that you can put in a CT clamp which will allow the charge point to sense the whole house load. Very important for future proofing if/when you decide to go full BEV or even have two EV's.





Modern charge points will feed excess Solar PV electricity to an EV if its at home by day.




Good shout on that.

In addition, put in ducting to that location to allow additional cables to be easily run to it from outside.... in particular the likes of Fibre-to-the-home cable or any gate automation or the like.

That has to be the best system the 6/10 and cat 5 from the main board for each charger

Not a fan of this idea of adding even more stuff to the meter cabinet, it's already not fit for purpose

There's a combined network and power cable over on another thread

Not sure if they do a 10 and a network cable


https://www.expertelectrical.co.uk/doncaster-cables-ev-ultra-cable
Only a 6 and the pair , still nice cable

jumbone

Lots of mentions of CAT6 and a few people mentioned high up sockets for TVs, HDMI cables in walls etc

What about surround sound cabling? Is that back to being niche/enthusiast as most consumer gear now bluetooth?

2011

Terry.. wrote: »

Is the SPD a requirement for the main board on this upgrade ?

Technically no, but in reality yes. The REC has a choice, either produce a risk assessment stating that surge protection is not required on install surge protection. As it is not very expensive I think that installing it is a no brainer.

KCross

Terry.. wrote: »

Not a fan of this idea of adding even more stuff to the meter cabinet, it's already not fit for purpose

Not sure what the issue would be, it’s just a small CT clamp.

If it is an issue you can alternatively run the clamp back to the consumer unit instead as long as it’s clamped to the incoming tails and sensing the whole house load.

jester77

jumbone wrote: »

Lots of mentions of CAT6 and a few people mentioned high up sockets for TVs, HDMI cables in walls etc

What about surround sound cabling? Is that back to being niche/enthusiast as most consumer gear now bluetooth?

Always go cable Plus cable in the ceiling for Atmos. Most decent receivers support it.

Terry..

KCross wrote: »

Not sure what the issue would be, it’s just a small CT clamp.

If it is an issue you can alternatively run the clamp back to the consumer unit instead as long as it’s clamped to the incoming tails and sensing the whole house load.

I'm talking about converting the MOPD to the MDB by distributing ev power and monitoring from the cabinet location


The preferred option should be as u said to wire the chargers from the existing MDB which up to now is located indoors

Imo

The spanner in the works to my idea could be the location of emergency switching

Maybe it will all have to originate at the cabinet

Emergency switching though is not that difficult to wire from indoors either , just a pair to the location of the push

Switching for the main light either side of the beds.
Lamp switch & reading lights at each side of the bed.
Wired fire alarm with controller, wired alarm.
As said above deep back boxes !

ArrBee

punisher5112 wrote: »

Utility room or under the stairs would be my way.

Sure.
under stairs can be hard to retro fit I guess?

For me all the cabling is through the attic with multiple scrap pipping through the wool insulation as ducting, then coming back in to a walk in wardrobe where one set of shelves have everything.

I do have a small 9u(ish) rack that I was going to use in the attic until I measured the temp up there.
At that time dust was less of a concern as I just had a patch panel and fanless switch to house. but since then it has grown and now I wouldn't use the attic for dust reasons as much as heat reasons.

Thats another point OP.
Make sure your termination point for networking has space to grow.
You might not plan to now, but you will over the next 10-20 yrs. (or less)

ArrBee

Oh, I've another one....

Don't forget the outside of the house.
Outdoor sockets.
Some possibilities include:
-Christmas lights
-Robot mower charging base
-patio area (to plug in temporary things)

lobbylad

Thanks everyone, some great suggestions.

I have outdoor sockets thankfully, but will put in an outdoor cat-6 for wifi to stretch into the garden.
The attic was converted to habitable by previous owners (just never completed with bedroom/bathroom), so there is suitable side storage space for the ethernet equipment (temp is fine in attic).

Good points on future proofing the car charger too.

I've no intention of smart switches yet, but will take the advice on deeper boxes and neutral wiring.

markad1

I would also pull network cables to each corner of the house if you ever wanted to install cameras now or later.
I would also pull a cable for an outside shed (mancave)
Also a network cable to the front door for a smart video door bell

GreeBo

Terry.. wrote: »

I wouldn't be a fan of in-built usb chargers, the technology moves on and you're left with a semi obsolete faceplate

What has moved on in terms of USB? The socket end is still Type-A, same as the original spec, the peripheral end has changed many times, but for charging use case, not sure that matters?

Cerco

GreeBo wrote: »

What has moved on in terms of USB? The socket end is still Type-A, same as the original spec, the peripheral end has changed many times, but for charging use case, not sure that matters?

USB C is fast becoming the charger port of choice.

jester77

GreeBo wrote: »

What has moved on in terms of USB? The socket end is still Type-A, same as the original spec, the peripheral end has changed many times, but for charging use case, not sure that matters?

Power and data bandwidth transmission are always increasing, but they always keep backwards compatibility. I suppose it doesn't mean they will keep backwards compatibility going forward. V3.1 was only released in May and they are working v4. But for charging devices, you wouldn't need to worry too much.

Same with HDMI, if you are installing HDMI cables in the wall, make sure they are easy to replace. Or you may not be able to get a signal later as the standard evolves over time. HDMI 2.1 is the current standard.

GreeBo

Cerco wrote: »

USB C is fast becoming the charger port of choice.

Yeah, but thats at the peripheral end, the socket end is still typically USB-A, still on every laptop, computer, etc.

GreeBo

jester77 wrote: »

Power and data bandwidth transmission are always increasing, but they always keep backwards compatibility. I suppose it doesn't mean they will keep backwards compatibility going forward. V3.1 was only released in May and they are working v4. But for charging devices, you wouldn't need to worry too much.

Yeah, that was my point, from a charging point of view the USB version is kinda irrelevant, you just need a USB A socket, you can have whatever version you want at the other end, the socket will never be obsolete imo.

Cerco

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, but thats at the peripheral end, the socket end is still typically USB-A, still on every laptop, computer, etc.

No, this is not the case. Some laptops have even moved to USB4 e.g. Macs.
USB A is old technology now.
iPhone12's have moved to type "C" .

Cerco

GreeBo wrote: »

Yeah, that was my point, from a charging point of view the USB version is kinda irrelevant, you just need a USB A socket, you can have whatever version you want at the other end, the socket will never be obsolete imo.

Compare the specs between USB A and USB C. You will from a charging perspective type "C" is far superior to "A".

One of the raison d'etres for "C" was for charging laptops.

Michael Collins

GreeBo wrote: »

What has moved on in terms of USB? The socket end is still Type-A, same as the original spec, the peripheral end has changed many times, but for charging use case, not sure that matters?

They still serve a purpose, but I'd be less enthusiastic about them these days given the various proprietary "fast charge" standards out there.

USB-C PD (power delivery) is quite useful. Basically it can negotiate the voltage output between 5 V (standard USB) and 20 V (typical laptop voltage). Many modern laptops can charge via a USB-C PD charger now. I have one charger now in my laptop bag for going on trips (maybe some day!). It can charge my phone and laptop, among other things.

GreeBo

Totally get that it might not charge as quickly as whatever the latest happens to be in the future, but its not like it will be a betamax player and be totally useless, you will still be able to charge it with TypeA -> Type(x) cables, and I reckon changing the face plate in 5 years time isn't really too much of a big deal, compared to not having USB sockets and having to have a usb plug in every room...

Terry..

Can you actually IR test an installation with these in place

It was me that said I'm against but haven't actually come across them

In general with equipment "separates" is usually better, applies to a lot of stuff

tDw6u1bj

Do/have/should people use flexible conduits for network cables?

They're the one thing that are likely to be out of date in 10 years, so wouldn't fitting them so that you can easily pull the new cable through without having to rip anything up/crawl through the attic be a good idea?

Just something that's occurred to me when I'm thinking of doing some upgrades at home

Henry...

tDw6u1bj wrote: »

Do/have/should people use flexible conduits for network cables?

They're the one thing that are likely to be out of date in 10 years, so wouldn't fitting them so that you can easily pull the new cable through without having to rip anything up/crawl through the attic be a good idea?

Just something that's occurred to me when I'm thinking of doing some upgrades at home

Off the top of my head doubt it for most routes, would be quicker just rewiring, some flat oval conduit ya

Isn't the cat6 1Gbit

How much more bandwidth is likely to be needed anyway for most of the cables

jester77

Henry... wrote: »

Off the top of my head doubt it for most routes, would be quicker just rewiring, some flat oval conduit ya

Isn't the cat6 1Gbit

How much more bandwidth is likely to be needed anyway for most of the cables

No chance it would be quicker. My house has conduit in the walls and under the floors for all current cables. I can easily pull through new cables. I wouldn't fancy having to routes out channels in the walls or dig up the floors just to lay new cable, the underfloor heating system is on top of the conduit which would complicate it even more.

Henry...

jester77 wrote: »

No chance it would be quicker. My house has conduit in the walls and under the floors for all current cables. I can easily pull through new cables. I wouldn't fancy having to routes out channels in the walls or dig up the floors just to lay new cable, the underfloor heating system is on top of the conduit which would complicate it even more.

The drops yes obviously they will be in regular conduit but after that rewiring usually entails lifting boards or making holes

No way round that

tDw6u1bj

Henry... wrote: »

Off the top of my head doubt it for most routes, would be quicker just rewiring, some flat oval conduit ya

Isn't the cat6 1Gbit

How much more bandwidth is likely to be needed anyway for most of the cables

The advantage of the round flexi conduit is that you could have an unbroken route from network switch to socket. When you want to change cable all you would have to do is stand in one spot and pull the new one through.

Oval conduit usually only goes as far as the ceiling or floor, then you're ripping up floors or crawling through the attic. Totally different. With the way things are now I doubt many would consider an upgrade unless they really had to.

Will there be need? Absolutely.
I would consider cat6 already outdated for a new install

ArrBee

You are supposed to be able to get 10Gb down short runs of cat 6 so I would see it as viable for a few years yet.
The ability to swap it out down the line though it's essential.

tDw6u1bj

ArrBee wrote: »

You are supposed to be able to get 10Gb down short runs of cat 6 so I would see it as viable for a few years yet.
The ability to swap it out down the line though it's essential.

Yeah, there would be no need for an upgrade now but I also wouldn't accept cat6 if I were getting a new installation - much better to pay a tiny bit extra and get double the life-span.

You get the feeling that even now this doesn't get too much thought - throw in CAT6, box ticked, be grand.