Discounted rail passes for part time commuters.

cdeb

Yep, but me showing that at least 70%, and probably as many as 80% of regular workers (ie not summer workers), pay tax does. Also me showing half of all workers pay some top-rate tax and me showing the discounts inherent in even the full Taxsaver ticket price.

Hence "as shown".

Meanwhile, you've shown nothing to back your views up.

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

Yep, but me showing that at least 70%, and probably as many as 80% of regular workers (ie not summer workers), pay tax does. Also me showing half of all workers pay some top-rate tax and me showing the discounts inherent in even the full Taxsaver ticket price.

Hence "as shown".

Can you link to the post where you've shown that half of all workers pay some top-rate tax? I've just reviewed the entire thread, twice, and I'm not seeing it.

Also, the assertion that summer worker are irrelevant is ... odd. In a country where a lot of economic activity is based on agriculture and tourism, a large seasonal workforce is inevitable. Social schemes should be designed so that people in this workforce are not disadvantaged - and monthly bus tickets do just this.

cdeb

Yes, it's the part in post 16 where I show the median salary is actually just above the standard rate cut off point. That is, the salary which half of all employees in Ireland earn is above the point at which workers start to pay 40% tax. (Median income in 2018 was €36,095, versus SRCO of €34,550. And if you consider urban areas, which Taxsaver is naturally biased towards, the median will increase)

Fair point on monthly bus tickets, though a lot of student summer work is going to be local and not requiring of a commute. The local supermarket or pub something similar. Then you'll also have some people working but who have free travel passes. But look, add them back in and take the figure of 71% of workers paying PAYE - it's still not remotely true to state that "we basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all".

Monthly bus tickets don't disadvantage anyone. If you've got a particularly short bus commute, they mayn't give you much advantage, but that's far from the same thing as saying they disadvantage you.

AngryLips

So anyone any idea what a part time annual public transport pass will look like in terms of fare structure and also what timeline the NTA are working towards? I wonder, will the move to single fare between all operators be reflected in taxsaver tickets in general or will it continue to segregate between modes.

cdeb

It'll be an interesting one because of course the regular ticket isn't a five-day ticket - it's unlimited use for the month/year.

So what is a three-day ticket - is it a set three days (Mon/Tues/Weds)? But what if your days are flexible?

Or is it your first three days in the week? But if you commute Weds/Thurs/Fri and you use it for personal use on Mon, can you then not use it to get to work on Fri?

The English version is eight days in a month, which is closer the latter model. Would that be 8/30ths the price of a monthly ticket?

But I suppose we need to see what the ticket offers before it can be priced.

namloc1980

I presume there has been no more news on the part time commuter/taxsaver ticket? I am due to return to the office from September for 2 days a week. In the UK part time tickets have been available for a number of months now but still nada here. 😕

Repo101

Transport costs for ordinary commutes to work should be reclaimable against IT. The NTA and Irish Rail haven't a clue what they are at. Instead of reducing fares all along the commuter line, fares increased for most but reduced for people in the SHZ from Sallins. Now people are travelling to Sallins by car from as far away as Portlaoise. The solution? Extend the SHZ or reduce fares? No, they just built another car park at Sallins!

Time and time again the government have shown that they have no interest in fixing the core problems with transport in Ireland. I used tax saver previously but will not use it anymore. The lack of flexible ticketing means its cheaper for me to drive and park in Dublin, instead of commuting via public transport.

cdeb

How do you monitor claiming every little ticket against income tax? Or if you have a Leap card, do you keep a record of what every trip was for so you can work out which ones you claim against tax? What about a day when you're on leave from work but use public transport to go into town anyway - how do Revenue spot bogus claims like that?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760880#Comment_117760880

There should be a fares determination report coming out probably by the end of September, in advance of the launch of the C Spine and the new 90 minute ticket which is due in October, which will mean simplified fare structures across the public transport operators in Dublin city.

I suspect that monthly, annual and part time tickets will all be part of that report.

Repo101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776293#Comment_117776293

The emphasis should be on encouraging people to use public transport.

It's not rocket science.

namloc1980

People returning en-masse to the office from this week with many of them on hybrid hours and still nothing about part time commuter tickets.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924593#Comment_117924593

Adding new part-time ticket types as being covered by the Taxsaver Scheme may need primary legislation to be passed as part of the upcoming Finance Bill - at the moment it specifies monthly and annual tickets. I suspect that it will have to be part of the Budget.

loyatemu

well, will we see this in the budget today, haven't seen any mention of it so far.

namloc1980

Nada on this in the budget. Absolutely mind blowing that nothing is being done to support hybrid working in terms of part time taxsaver/commuter tickets.

LXFlyer

Well the NTA fares determination report for 2022 should be appearing at the end of the month - let’s wait and see what is in that. It may be that they can do it without legislation - I don’t know.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009842#Comment_118009842

Can't see how they can implement a tax measure outside of the budget process. If I were a betting man I would say it will be silent on this issue or at most will mention that Leap fares are grand so just suck it up if you are a part time commuter.

loyatemu

it's just a new ticket type, I don't see how it would require legislation.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010010#Comment_118010010

Maybe because it would have a tax implication. It's not just a ticket type, it's a tax measure. If it's as straight forward as you say then why hasn't it been brought in yet? I mean part time commuter tickers were launched in the UK months ago, yet we're left in an unknown scenario here with numerous people back at work part time.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010010#Comment_118010010

It's not just a ticket, it's a tax relief. It was first introduced in the 1999 budget/Finance Act as an amendment to the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. It was amended again in later budgets to include the RPA, ferries, the NTA etc. but it specifically mentions "monthly or annual passes".

namloc1980

I suspect there is zero intention to do anything for hybrid commuters. In fact the reduced demand for the Taxsaver generates revenue/savings for the government's finances so they won't be too keen to extend it to hybrid workers. I'm someone who had a Taxsaver but don't anymore. I'll be very pleasantly surprised if the fares determination has something positive in it on this front.

namloc1980

I just caught the end of Ryan on Newstalk and he said taxsaver changes would be considered in future budgets 🙄. Anyone else catch it?

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010446#Comment_118010446

The NTA definitely wrote up a proposal for the Department of Transport who definitely brought it to the Department of Finance. I presume they shredded it.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010389#Comment_118010389

A part time taxsaver ticket would still be a monthly or annual pass, it sounds like it's more a case of semantics than a legislative constraint to me

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010782#Comment_118010782

Eamon Ryan said it'll be considered in future budgets so seemingly there's no urgency anyway.

ongarboy

Bur if you're only commuting 2 out of 5 days a week going forward and WFH for example the remaining 3 days, wouldn't a Leap card per fare for bus/train use for those 2 days each week plus the occasional social /non work trip be cheaper overall per year then the 41% discount (or whatever it is for those on the top rate) of an annual bus and rail pass so is there a need for a new tax treatment for part time annual commuting?

bikeman1

A far more simple and equitable solution would be to give a flat 20% credit (the same as health expenses) for ALL public transport journeys made in the year.

This would be linked through a leap card type card, linked to your name and PPS that can be easily verified at the end of the year online for submission to Revenue to make a claim.

This would really give an incentive for people to get onto public transport, including for going on leisure journeys and inter city instead of taking the almighty car.

Tax savers can remain in place for full time workers in its current form and provide tax relief at the tax payers marginal rate.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011945#Comment_118011945

How is that simple? Drop the weird tax relief thing and just lower fares like a normal country.

loyatemu

fairest approach would be to take the money allocated across the board and use it to reduce fares across the board, maybe with an emphasis on reducing the weekly caps to encourage commuting by public transport. or just make the annual tickets much cheaper.

namloc1980

Any idea when the Fares Determination is due out? Seems to be delayed.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118141929#Comment_118141929

Next week