Discounted rail passes for part time commuters.

Help2

I see in England they are offering discounted rail passes for part time commuters. See BBC article linked below.

New flexible tickets go on sale for part-time commuters

Any talk of this happening in Ireland, to cater for those moving to a hybrid in office/at home working pattern?

Presumably the relevant persons are looking into this, if not, they should be! IMO

L1011

Considering Taxsaver is only of use to those paying income tax (e.g. not minimum wage workers), we basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all -lt more work required there

Peregrine

There are plans for flexible Taxsaver tickets but it will take time because of the nature of Taxsaver. Any change will require amendments to primary income tax legislation through the Department of Finance. It's generally only done on budget day.

But Taxsaver, like Cycle to Work, is a completely regressive system that gives discounts to high earners and makes low earners pay full whack for the same service. It needs to be replaced.

AngryLips

Yes saw a report in the Irish Sunday Times today that said the NTA were looking at implementing it but that it would require change to legislation because the original legislation was quite prescriptive. I wonder how it will be implemented and whether they'll just adopt the model used for the DB 30-day ticket where it's non consecutive use

Mrs OBumble

Peregrine wrote: »

But Taxsaver, like Cycle to Work, is a completely regressive system that gives discounts to high earners and makes low earners pay full whack for the same service. It needs to be replaced.

If the policy goal is to encourage people to travel by public transport, who usually wouldn't, then surely the current arrangement is best at this. The lower paid get their discounts in the form of lower tax, medical cards, social housing and FIS.

That said, TS is fupped-up.

In one current company, I am the only person who it would be any use to (due to where other employees live). HR are not going sign up to any scheme just for one employee.

Vic_08

By far the most sensible arrangement would be to scrap the current scheme, agree a flat % with revenue and allow qualifying transport operators apply for that rebate on all sales of an agreed set of tickets.

Restrict it to tickets that are generally only of value to regular commuters and it will by default be a tax rebate as few if any non-taxpayers will be buying them even with the revenue discount.

Getting rid of all the current office work and accounting will reduce the cost of administering the scheme to near zero, just one application per year by each operator to revenue for their rebate.

It would open it up to everybody not just those whose employers accounts department are willing to administer it and at the same time make the cost of the tickets obvious to customers rather than an arithmetic/tax lesson that puts many off.

Alternatively, as the NTA are taking on the revenue for an increasing % of services just include funding for discounted commuter tickets as part of the NTA budget and leave revenue out of it altogether.

Tusky

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/covid-in-ireland-all-aboard-for-home-workers-part-time-commuter-ticket-fgwgrvzl6

cdeb

L1011 wrote: »

Considering Taxsaver is only of use to those paying income tax (e.g. not minimum wage workers), we basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all -lt more work required there

Not sure I understand this post tbh.

Most people pay income tax. The price of a Taxsaver ticket includes a discount on what you would expect to pay if you were buying a ticket each day. And an annual Taxsaver ticket is ten times the cost of a monthly one, with two months free. So there absolutely are discounts for commuters.

And separate to that, a 3-day ticket (or whatever becomes the norm) is probably going to have to be introduced at some stage.

Gloucester

Not sure what L1011 meant above - I agree with cdeb, anyone paying income tax saves money on it, whether you're in the lower or higher bracket.

In the organisation that I work in, I'm the only employee who needed it (all other staff live within walking / cycling distance or choose to drive) and Accounts had no problem signing up for it. It's a simple enough process and they could see the clear saving for me. But I guess it depends on the company you work for, ours is quite small.

It's great that the Bike to Work Scheme & Taxsaver are not mutually exclusive. Over lockdown, it was great to be able to purchase a new bike and accessories safe in the knowledge that it wouldn't affect my Taxsaver ticket purchase when we return to a commute (be it a 3 or 4 day week or whatever transpires).

L1011

What we have is a tax rebate system for higher earners to encourage them out of cars; not a discount system for commuters. It was designed to be that way, but is not explicitly explained as being such.

Those on the minimum wage do not pay income tax and as such get no discount from Taxsaver - the two months free is on annual tickets to begin with. Those on a lower income above this get a significantly lower discount than those on higher incomes.

The only discounts available to lower earners are the neglible discounts over Leap capping (where available) that season passes already had. Taxsaver only becomes useful when you earn more.

cdeb

But you've just repeated your point there without addressing the counter points made.

Most people do pay tax. To say "We basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all" is absolute nonsense.

Taxsaver is cheaper than capping for a start, particularly for longer commutes. And two months free for all absolutely is a discount

Yes, Taxsaver benefits those who pay higher tax. They also pay more tax which subsidises public transport and reduces ticket prices. Lower earners benefit in other ways - a far lower % effective tax rate, less tax on additional earnings such as overtime or bonuses, cheaper BIK, etc

Benefits don't have to always go to one side. A balance is good.

L1011

And I disagree with your viewpoint on that entirely.

Its an incentive for higher rate tax payers (which is nowhere near "most people"), not a commuting subsidy

cdeb

I didn't say higher rate tax payers were "most people". I said most people paid tax.

That, and everything else in my post, is a verifiable fact. You can't disagree with facts. You can try challenge them or present some sort of evidence to give an alternative factual viewpoint if you wish. But simply saying "I disagree" and then misquoting me isn't a recipe for a post I can take seriously.

JeffKenna

L1011 wrote: »

What we have is a tax rebate system for higher earners to encourage them out of cars; not a discount system for commuters. It was designed to be that way, but is not explicitly explained as being such.

Those on the minimum wage do not pay income tax and as such get no discount from Taxsaver - the two months free is on annual tickets to begin with. Those on a lower income above this get a significantly lower discount than those on higher incomes.

The only discounts available to lower earners are the neglible discounts over Leap capping (where available) that season passes already had. Taxsaver only becomes useful when you earn more.

Maybe those on minimum wage should start paying their fair share of tax like people do in most countries.

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

Most people do pay tax. To say "We basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all" is absolute nonsense.

Taxsaver is cheaper than capping for a start, particularly for longer commutes. And two months free for all absolutely is a discount

Everyone pays some consumption tax (VAT).

But a huge number of workers pay little or no income tax (PAYE). This is because the first 18k of income (more if you're old or a sole-parent) is effectively taxed at 0%. I know people who turn down extra work, because it would take their income over 18k and so they would have to pay tax on it.

People in this scenario don't benefit from TaxSaver, because they don't pay tax in the first place.

cdeb

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Everyone pays some consumption tax (VAT).

But a huge number of workers pay little or no income tax (PAYE). This is because the first 18k of income (more if you're old or a sole-parent) is effectively taxed at 0%. I know people who turn down extra work, because it would take their income over 18k and so they would have to pay tax on it.

People in this scenario don't benefit from TaxSaver, because they don't pay tax in the first place.

Sigh

I know that.

Most people pay PAYE. I didn't think that really needed to be clarified in the context of the original comment. In fact, the SRCO is slightly below the median wage level - that is, the majority of people earn enough to be paying top-rate tax on some earnings

Anyone who turns down extra work because it brings them into a higher tax band doesn't understand tax.

Edit - in fact, here's an article from 2018 which says around 29% of workers were likely to not pay PAYE/USC that year. That includes students in summer jobs so far as I can see, for whom Taxsaver wouldn't really be relevant, so the real number for this discussion is going to be a fair bit lower. We can say that at least 70%, and probably more than 80%, of workers benefit from Taxsaver. And that's purely in terms of saving tax - the actual cheaper cost of the ticket compared to daily purchases is additional.

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

We can say that at least 70%, and probably more than 80%, of workers benefit from Taxsaver.

Nowhere near it.

Many employers don't participate.

Most employees don't travel by public transport.

In my main company, 0% benefits: everyone else drives, cos of where they live. I use PT, but cannot use TS because the company won't sign up for one employee.

cdeb

You're again misrepresenting me. I'm talking about the percentage of people who benefit from having a Taxsaver ticket. The starting assumption in that is that you have a Taxsaver ticket.

If 80% of workers pay tax, we can assume that 80% of people with a Taxsaver ticket benefit from a tax saving. There is no reason to suppose they'd be different to taxpayers in general. (In fact, they'd likely be skewed towards city workers as that's where public transport is centred, and you'd typically find higher wages there, so more likelihood of 40% savings, which I've already shown the majority of people pay)

I've never heard of an employer who's refused to get a staff member a Taxsaver ticket. The employer saves money too. You don't "sign up" for anything - you just buy a ticket.

wench

cdeb wrote: »

I've never heard of an employer who's refused to get a staff member a Taxsaver ticket. The employer saves money too. You don't "sign up" for anything - you just buy a ticket.

Ah, you're clearly missing out on some of the vagaries of employer participation.
I've worked for an employer who would only let you sign up for a taxsaver ticket using your bonus.

If you didn't get a bonus that year, no ticket for you.
If your bonus didn't cover the full amount, they would take the balance from your next paycheck. And you had to decide blind, before you knew how much your bonus was.

cdeb

Well ok, but that is stupid from the employer. They save money when employees use the Taxsaver scheme too, which should make up for the fact that at any given stage, each staff member on the scheme will owe them about €700, which certainly can add up in terms of cash flow.

Telling staff they can't have a ticket if they don't reach their bonus is punishing them twice and I'd say it's fantastic for staff morale.

wench

Oh absolutely. But morale isn't a measurable indicator, so who cares about that, right?

cdeb

Sounds like the title of the next Dilbert book!

goingnowhere

wench wrote: »

Ah, you're clearly missing out on some of the vagaries of employer participation.
I've worked for an employer who would only let you sign up for a taxsaver ticket using your bonus.

If you didn't get a bonus that year, no ticket for you.
If your bonus didn't cover the full amount, they would take the balance from your next paycheck. And you had to decide blind, before you knew how much your bonus was.

This is actually covered by the scheme

1. Ticket can be offered as a 'bonus'
2. Can be paid for out of salary

It should be made available as normal tax claim also, thats the real failure you are tied to your employer. Its actually cheaper for the Government to let you claim as the employer doesn't get the PRSI saving

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

You're again misrepresenting me. I'm talking about the percentage of people who benefit from having a Taxsaver ticket. The starting assumption in that is that you have a Taxsaver ticket.

If 80% of workers pay tax, we can assume that 80% of people with a Taxsaver ticket benefit from a tax saving. There is no reason to suppose they'd be different to taxpayers in general. (In fact, they'd likely be skewed towards city workers as that's where public transport is centred, and you'd typically find higher wages there, so more likelihood of 40% savings, which I've already shown the majority of people pay)

I've never heard of an employer who's refused to get a staff member a Taxsaver ticket. The employer saves money too. You don't "sign up" for anything - you just buy a ticket.

No, you're talking about the % of tax saver users who benefit, not the % of all people.

Employers do need to sign up to be allowed to buy tickets, they cannot just do one off purchases. They also need to collect info from their employees, authorising the ticket purchase.

cdeb

I know what I was talking about, thanks. I wasn't - and indeed, no-one was - talking about the percentage of all people who benefit. What sort of useless stat would that be? Shock as people who don't use public transport don't get a tax discount from a public transport ticket.

All you need to do is register on the Taxsaver site and buy a ticket. It's no different to setting up as a supplier of any goods/services - you obviously need to give some basic details so you can be invoiced. And the info they need to get from employees can be an e-mail saying "Please get me this ticket"

(And a suggestion if I can - will you drop the aggressive attitude? You've come milling into this thread with comments in bold which clearly indicated you haven't properly read what's been said, and you've kept up the aggression ever since. It's not helpful)

devnull

cdeb wrote: »

(And a suggestion if I can - will you drop the aggressive attitude? You've come milling into this thread with comments in bold which clearly indicated you haven't properly read what's been said, and you've kept up the aggression ever since. It's not helpful)

If you have a problem with a post or a way that another user is posting, report the concerned posts using the button beside each post and the moderators will take a look and decide if any action is required. Do not attempt to back seat moderate.

Do not reply to this post.

- Moderator

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

All you need to do is register on the Taxsaver site and buy a ticket. It's no different to setting up as a supplier of any goods/services - you obviously need to give some basic details so you can be invoiced. And the info they need to get from employees can be an e-mail saying "Please get me this ticket"

When I worked for companies that offered Tax Saver, they collected far more information, so that they had adequate information to justify the salary deduction. There was talk that a photo-id would be required in future too - I don't know if that was ever implemented.

Also, while TaxSaver may have a simple employer sign-up process from their side (detailed here - https://www.taxsaver.ie/Employers/How-to-get-started/), most companies have their own supplier validation process that also needs to be followed. This may include steps like a phone-call to double-check the bank account number before the first payment is made. Some companies will not allow suppliers to take payment by direct-debit, and have restrictive rules about what their own credit card can be used for.

The whole scheme is bureaucratic for very little benefit: direct funding of subsidised services would be far more efficient.

cdeb

What more information do you need to justify a salary deduction than an email saying "Please buy me a ticket and deduct from my salary"? At absolute worst, a one-page template form would be required. It's not a pension you're signing up for.

A supplier validation process is absolutely standard and not a reason to avoid Taxsaver. Especially when the bank details are on the website and do not require a phone call to confirm. Photo ID has been there for years and takes moments to arrange. It's not an issue, and it's only for new employees, not for every ticket. Take a photo on your phone and get on with it.

What companies won't allow DD supplier payments? Why would you make things difficult for yourself?

I should point out I've been buying Leap cards for staff in various organisations for the last 15 years, and it's not remotely bureaucratic. Stuff like supplier setup forms are all very very standard if you want to set up an account with any supplier.

And there is benefit - the company and the commuter save money and time, because the annual ticket is cheaper than topping up a Leap card or paying cash, because it saves the time of topping up a Leap card or paying cash, and because the vast majority of commuters save tax.

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

And there is benefit - the company and the commuter save money and time, because the annual ticket is cheaper than topping up a Leap card or paying cash, because it saves the time of topping up a Leap card or paying cash, and because the vast majority of commuters save tax.

And there's another point: some companies only allow purchase of annual tickets, not monthly ones. Which is sweet f-all use for temporary and fixed-term employees, and those who might change jobs with the next 12 months.


I'm not going into discussion about what type of companies won't do DDs etc, etc, as this isn't the place. But I will 100% stand by the statement. I've done contracts in a wide variety of Irish companies by this stage, and I know that *some* have policies like I've described. Maybe only a few companies have each issue I've mentioned. But the nett effect is that Tax Saver is not available to a great many people

cdeb

It is simply not true that "Taxsaver is not available to a great many people". The circumstances you describe are a minority, and would likely be outnumbered by contractors, who would be ineligible as they're not employees.

The bureaucracy you describe is nothing of the sort - it's standard supplier set-up stuff that needs to be done once and once only. And it's simply not true to say that it's for very little benefit - half the working population pay top-rate tax and so would save 52% on their already-discounted ticket.

We can add that to the other fallacies in this thread, which are worth grouping together as a summary -

L1011 wrote:

Considering Taxsaver is only of use to those paying income tax (e.g. not minimum wage workers), we basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all -lt more work required there

Not true, as shown.

L1011 wrote:

The only discounts available to lower earners are the neglible discounts over Leap capping (where available) that season passes already had.

Not true, as shown.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

Everyone pays some consumption tax (VAT).

But a huge number of workers pay little or no income tax (PAYE).

Irrelevant to the extent it indicates you haven't read the first page of the thread.

Mrs OBumble wrote:

No, you're talking about the % of tax saver users who benefit, not the % of all people.

Misrepresenting what I said.

L1011

cdeb wrote: »

We can add that to the other fallacies in this thread, which are worth grouping together as a summary -


Not true, as shown.


Not true, as shown.

You basically going "No!" does not make something a fallacy / show it not to be true.

cdeb

Yep, but me showing that at least 70%, and probably as many as 80% of regular workers (ie not summer workers), pay tax does. Also me showing half of all workers pay some top-rate tax and me showing the discounts inherent in even the full Taxsaver ticket price.

Hence "as shown".

Meanwhile, you've shown nothing to back your views up.

Mrs OBumble

cdeb wrote: »

Yep, but me showing that at least 70%, and probably as many as 80% of regular workers (ie not summer workers), pay tax does. Also me showing half of all workers pay some top-rate tax and me showing the discounts inherent in even the full Taxsaver ticket price.

Hence "as shown".

Can you link to the post where you've shown that half of all workers pay some top-rate tax? I've just reviewed the entire thread, twice, and I'm not seeing it.

Also, the assertion that summer worker are irrelevant is ... odd. In a country where a lot of economic activity is based on agriculture and tourism, a large seasonal workforce is inevitable. Social schemes should be designed so that people in this workforce are not disadvantaged - and monthly bus tickets do just this.

cdeb

Yes, it's the part in post 16 where I show the median salary is actually just above the standard rate cut off point. That is, the salary which half of all employees in Ireland earn is above the point at which workers start to pay 40% tax. (Median income in 2018 was €36,095, versus SRCO of €34,550. And if you consider urban areas, which Taxsaver is naturally biased towards, the median will increase)

Fair point on monthly bus tickets, though a lot of student summer work is going to be local and not requiring of a commute. The local supermarket or pub something similar. Then you'll also have some people working but who have free travel passes. But look, add them back in and take the figure of 71% of workers paying PAYE - it's still not remotely true to state that "we basically don't have any discounts for commuters at all".

Monthly bus tickets don't disadvantage anyone. If you've got a particularly short bus commute, they mayn't give you much advantage, but that's far from the same thing as saying they disadvantage you.

AngryLips

So anyone any idea what a part time annual public transport pass will look like in terms of fare structure and also what timeline the NTA are working towards? I wonder, will the move to single fare between all operators be reflected in taxsaver tickets in general or will it continue to segregate between modes.

cdeb

It'll be an interesting one because of course the regular ticket isn't a five-day ticket - it's unlimited use for the month/year.

So what is a three-day ticket - is it a set three days (Mon/Tues/Weds)? But what if your days are flexible?

Or is it your first three days in the week? But if you commute Weds/Thurs/Fri and you use it for personal use on Mon, can you then not use it to get to work on Fri?

The English version is eight days in a month, which is closer the latter model. Would that be 8/30ths the price of a monthly ticket?

But I suppose we need to see what the ticket offers before it can be priced.

namloc1980

I presume there has been no more news on the part time commuter/taxsaver ticket? I am due to return to the office from September for 2 days a week. In the UK part time tickets have been available for a number of months now but still nada here. 😕

Repo101

Transport costs for ordinary commutes to work should be reclaimable against IT. The NTA and Irish Rail haven't a clue what they are at. Instead of reducing fares all along the commuter line, fares increased for most but reduced for people in the SHZ from Sallins. Now people are travelling to Sallins by car from as far away as Portlaoise. The solution? Extend the SHZ or reduce fares? No, they just built another car park at Sallins!

Time and time again the government have shown that they have no interest in fixing the core problems with transport in Ireland. I used tax saver previously but will not use it anymore. The lack of flexible ticketing means its cheaper for me to drive and park in Dublin, instead of commuting via public transport.

cdeb

How do you monitor claiming every little ticket against income tax? Or if you have a Leap card, do you keep a record of what every trip was for so you can work out which ones you claim against tax? What about a day when you're on leave from work but use public transport to go into town anyway - how do Revenue spot bogus claims like that?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117760880#Comment_117760880

There should be a fares determination report coming out probably by the end of September, in advance of the launch of the C Spine and the new 90 minute ticket which is due in October, which will mean simplified fare structures across the public transport operators in Dublin city.

I suspect that monthly, annual and part time tickets will all be part of that report.

Repo101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776293#Comment_117776293

The emphasis should be on encouraging people to use public transport.

It's not rocket science.

namloc1980

People returning en-masse to the office from this week with many of them on hybrid hours and still nothing about part time commuter tickets.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924593#Comment_117924593

Adding new part-time ticket types as being covered by the Taxsaver Scheme may need primary legislation to be passed as part of the upcoming Finance Bill - at the moment it specifies monthly and annual tickets. I suspect that it will have to be part of the Budget.

loyatemu

well, will we see this in the budget today, haven't seen any mention of it so far.

namloc1980

Nada on this in the budget. Absolutely mind blowing that nothing is being done to support hybrid working in terms of part time taxsaver/commuter tickets.

LXFlyer

Well the NTA fares determination report for 2022 should be appearing at the end of the month - let’s wait and see what is in that. It may be that they can do it without legislation - I don’t know.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009842#Comment_118009842

Can't see how they can implement a tax measure outside of the budget process. If I were a betting man I would say it will be silent on this issue or at most will mention that Leap fares are grand so just suck it up if you are a part time commuter.

loyatemu

it's just a new ticket type, I don't see how it would require legislation.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010010#Comment_118010010

Maybe because it would have a tax implication. It's not just a ticket type, it's a tax measure. If it's as straight forward as you say then why hasn't it been brought in yet? I mean part time commuter tickers were launched in the UK months ago, yet we're left in an unknown scenario here with numerous people back at work part time.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010010#Comment_118010010

It's not just a ticket, it's a tax relief. It was first introduced in the 1999 budget/Finance Act as an amendment to the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. It was amended again in later budgets to include the RPA, ferries, the NTA etc. but it specifically mentions "monthly or annual passes".

namloc1980

I suspect there is zero intention to do anything for hybrid commuters. In fact the reduced demand for the Taxsaver generates revenue/savings for the government's finances so they won't be too keen to extend it to hybrid workers. I'm someone who had a Taxsaver but don't anymore. I'll be very pleasantly surprised if the fares determination has something positive in it on this front.