United Rugby Championship announced, beginning September 2021

thomond2006

I think we've become comfortable with at least three Irish teams qualifying for Europe without any issue. For the first time (ever?) that may change.

sydthebeat

Red Silurian wrote: »

Correct, but if we play the same teams at home every year it wouldn't be very fair on anyone

which has never ever happened.. so only exists in your mind

ineedeuro

Really happy with this new format, chatting to a mate in SA this morning as well and they are excited. Seemingly as well loads of talk of a secondary competition that Irish teams might be involved in which would include Ceetahs/Southern King/team from Georgia etc....he mentioned 2 Irish teams made up from the 4 provinces but said in reality it would have to be 4....so the A teams

Also his view is Rassie is really pushing his relationships with the IRFU, potential a Schools league, so Irish schools get to play against SA teams. I guess this would be winners of Irish schools gets to travel. Plus a draft system where Irish players could got to SA and SA players to Ireland.

Seems to be a lot of conversations going on to really push this league and the relationship between SA & Ireland.

sprucemoose

ineedeuro wrote: »

Seemingly as well loads of talk of a secondary competition that Irish teams might be involved in which would include Ceetahs/Southern King/team from Georgia etc....he mentioned 2 Irish teams made up from the 4 provinces but said in reality it would have to be 4....so the A teams

Also his view is Rassie is really pushing his relationships with the IRFU, potential a Schools league, so Irish schools get to play against SA teams. I guess this would be winners of Irish schools gets to travel. Plus a draft system where Irish players could got to SA and SA players to Ireland.

no to all of this please

yerrahbah

All Irish derbies and play-off games involving Irish sides to be FTA

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/more-than-50-provincial-games-in-revamped-pro14-to-be-shown-free-to-air-1.4594197

lawrencesummers

I’m surprised that nobody has asked why Munster are not playing in the SA conference instead of the Irish one.

Ye are losing your edge.
Going soft.

Cookiemunster

yerrahbah wrote: »

All Irish derbies and play-off games involving Irish sides to be FTA

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/more-than-50-provincial-games-in-revamped-pro14-to-be-shown-free-to-air-1.4594197

So it sounds like I suggested earlier in the thread. Premier Sports will have non exclusive rights for the UK and Ireland for every game, while the regional broadcasters will show their local teams.

bilston

So looks like that the 10% of games involving Irish sides that will be on subscription TV will mainly be Ulster's away matches. Guess I'll not be getting rid of Premier Sports after all.

Bazzo

Does this suggest the 24 team Heineken cup format might be sticking around?(I know it's already in for next season)

While the 8 team qualification is unbalanced with this league format it's swallowable. 6 teams could end up with some pretty crazy situations though.

Following on from that can't imagine the IRFU/SRU/WRU/SARU will be too happy about how crowded their qualification is while the French and particularly English(assuming no expansion) are handed 8 spots each.

Neil3030

Welsh journo online arguing that he'd prefer fully meritocratic qualification for the Heino, so that the ignominy of having zero Welsh teams qualify for the Heino might whip the WRU into shape....

.... however seems far more likely to me that in such a scenario we'd just hear increased moaning about the tournament, and pleas to join the Premiership...

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

Welsh journo online arguing that he'd prefer fully meritocratic qualification for the Heino, so that the ignominy of having zero Welsh teams qualify for the Heino might whip the WRU into shape....

.... however seems far more likely to me that in such a scenario we'd just hear increased moaning about the tournament, and pleas to join the Premiership...

Was it Simon Thomas of Wales Online. He's very open about wanting the welsh to join premiership/play the english much more

thomond2006

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Was it Simon Thomas of Wales Online. He's very open about wanting the welsh to join premiership/play the english much more

He knows the crowd he's playing to.

Neil3030

To clarify - he hasn't made any complaints about the URC but would prefer to see it go full meritocratic.

Red Silurian

In wonder will the Christmas back-to-back fixtures be kept in the H-Cup, can't see too many happy faces if a European team has to go to South Africa one week and then 5 days later play them again at home

Dave_The_Sheep

Really not a fan of SA teams being in the Heineken Cup.

Burkie1203

Red Silurian wrote: »

In wonder will the Christmas back-to-back fixtures be kept in the H-Cup, can't see too many happy faces if a European team has to go to South Africa one week and then 5 days later play them again at home

The back to back games didn't happen last season

Leinster were away to Monty and home to Northampton

Lost Ormond

thomond2006 wrote: »

He knows the crowd he's playing to.

I know that well. He completely plays everything up to that audience

Red Silurian wrote: »

In wonder will the Christmas back-to-back fixtures be kept in the H-Cup, can't see too many happy faces if a European team has to go to South Africa one week and then 5 days later play them again at home

They didnt happen last year but surely easy fix is just not have 5 day turnarounds for any side South African or european that plays in South Africa the weekend before

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Really not a fan of SA teams being in the Heineken Cup.

well if theyre playing in the league then why not have them also in the european cup?

awec

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Really not a fan of SA teams being in the Heineken Cup.

If they weren't allowed into the champions cup why would they bother their arse in the league?

Yurt2

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Really not a fan of SA teams being in the Heineken Cup.

I'm loving the thought of it. Bulls or Sharks versus Toulon or Toulouse in a packed stadium in the South of France? I'd watch that hard seven days a week.

The center of gravity of world rugby has definitively moved north now. New Zealand are stuck now trying to get competitive games for their franchises out of Australia (in serious decline) and Japan (on the up but still off the game's elite).

Yurt2

Neil3030 wrote: »

The measure of this league's success will be in how well the SA teams hold onto their better players. If we continue to see a one-way pipeline of talent migrating to Europe, we could wind up with a slightly more bloated Kings/Cheetahs situation. However if they can keep their players, I think this league could be epic.

Probably good news for SA rugby that will assist with player retention. I think I recall they consisted of the lions share of TV money in the Super Rugby arrangement and now that's pooled with European TV money. All games now more or less in their timezone to draw eyeballs.

Dave_The_Sheep

I know all that, lads. I just don't like it.

Lost Ormond

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I know all that, lads. I just don't like it.

why? It will make league better. european competition better.
whats not to like?

AbusesToilets

One step closer to a pan Euro league hopefully

ineedeuro

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Really not a fan of SA teams being in the Heineken Cup.

The only way the SA team would move to Pro14 was to play European rugby, it would be a pointless move if they didnt get allowed

The Irish teams are going backwards in the Pro14 because the Scottish/Welsh/italian teams at this stage are not up to standard, the question is not if the Irish team will win, it's if they can get a bonus point.

For the Irish teams and the Ireland International team to progress we need the SA's. Now the SA's need Ireland because they made most of the TV money for Super Rugby and then it was spilt up.

So it should be a win win....SA team in Europe? it should drive up the TV money more

ineedeuro

AbusesToilets wrote: »

One step closer to a pan Euro league hopefully

French will never dump the Top 14.

lawrencesummers

A question in all of this is when the fixtures for the Rugby Championship are. They have normally been summer time.

With a league starting in sept 2021 and running until June 2022 it doesn’t give SA internationals much time off before the start of the 2022 season, a season where they could be competing in the league, European cup, Autumn internationals and Rugby Championship.

Considering many will have been in action this summer against the lions and the strong possibility of an expanded Rugby Championship that’s a lot of fixtures for SA players, and also the possibility of a mid season break for them during the 6N.

Be interesting to see how that works out.

Yurt2

AbusesToilets wrote: »

One step closer to a pan Euro league hopefully

The French are far too attached to their league set-up for that to happen. And their domestic TV money is massive.

The Premiership is the least interesting of the big 3 leagues in Europe now. Seems stodgy compared to the URC and Top14.

I'd love to see the Italians level up and finally get competitive with big numbers in their stadiums. Wishful thinking though unless some Italian billionaires come in to bankroll the teams.

ineedeuro

Yurt! wrote: »

The French are far too attached to their league set-up for that to happen. And their domestic TV money is massive.

The Premiership is the least interesting of the big 3 leagues in Europe now. Seems stodgy compared to the URC and Top14.

I'd love to see the Italians level up and finally get competitive with big numbers in their stadiums. Wishful thinking though unless some Italian billionaires come in to bankroll the teams.

The Premiership are going to bring the numbers up to 14 and then shut down relegation for a period. They will never reintroduce it.

Without relegation the clubs will be guaranteed money so they can take out bigger loans and hopefully attract more players. This is the great hope from the English clubs. To me it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

hahashake

Are the other leagues going to travel to South Africa for Champions Cup games?

Lost Ormond

hahashake wrote: »

Are the other leagues going to travel to South Africa for Champions Cup games?

If the money is right for them they will.
London Irish and Newcastle played Sarries in premiership games in the US a few years ago as part of a deal to play some games there for $$$
So they definately would go to South Africa if money is right and these games would also be in same/similar time zone unlike games in the US which will be better for crowds at home as well

hahashake

Lost Ormond wrote: »

If the money is right for them they will.
London Irish and Newcastle played Sarries in premiership games in the US a few years ago as part of a deal to play some games there for $$$
So they definately would go to South Africa if money is right and these games would also be in same/similar time zone unlike games in the US which will be better for crowds at home as well

So then nothing is set in stone? Would anticipate a strong opposition to it.

Neil3030

If they're already talking about SA teams qualifying from next year onward, they've surely got commitment from French and English teams to travel there when appropriate.

hahashake

You would assume so. Unless SA has to compromise and play in a neutral venue.

Cookiemunster

In the article on the Munster site it says this.

Subject to the finalisation of contract terms with EPCR, South African teams will be eligible to qualify for the Heineken Champions Cup from the 2022/23 season if they have finished in the United Rugby Championship qualification places from the prior season.

I take that as meaning that all that's left to be done is for the i's to be dotted and the t's to be crossed. So where they play will be agreed well before they enter the competition.

thomond2006

I'd like to think SA in Europe is more or less a done deal given the promotion of it today within the announcement.

Red Silurian

Burkie1203 wrote: »

The back to back games didn't happen last season

Leinster were away to Monty and home to Northampton

Last season was thrown together because of the pandemic... In fairness it's going to be tough on any team that gets a South African side in their H-Cup group to come back a week later and play again just due to travel

Guy:Incognito

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's a straight league format for qualification into the playoffs..

Not quite though

"Q: HOW WILL THE FIXTURES WORK AND HOW MANY GAMES WILL MY TEAM PLAY?
Every team will play 18 games in the regular season comprising of:

6 Home AND away fixtures against their regional pool opponents
12 Home OR away fixtures against the other 12 teams in the league"

IMO leagues should be straight H & A against all the other opposition. Having an uneven number of games against different opposition skews it.

16 is too many for a full league of H&A so 2 8 team leagues playing 14 games each and the top 2 or 4 in each going to playoffs
OR cull it to a 10 team premier , find 4 more teams and have a 10 team championship with promotion and relegation.

touts

Neil3030 wrote: »

If they're already talking about SA teams qualifying from next year onward, they've surely got commitment from French and English teams to travel there when appropriate.

That"ll change if the South Africans start winning the thing. The French and English will throw a strop and look for the rules to be changed again.

Blut2

Great news overall I think. We already know all about the much needed revenue the SA teams are bringing to the league, but the now confirmed format (and Heineken Cup eligibility for the Saffers) should really make the league actually competitive too.

Its great seeing Irish teams win and all, but in the last couple of years the lack of competition has only gotten worse. Competitive SA teams will really raise the bar and keep it interesting. And hopefully drive the Irish teams to get more innovative, and benefit our national team too.

On a personal selfish level I'm also pretty excited by the prospect of following Leinster down South on a 2 game mini-tour of SA, since following the Lions this year obviously isn't happening. A 2 week jaunt to Durban and Cape Town, or Joburg/Pretoria, to escape the depths of the Irish winter to visit SA in their summer sounds just lovely.

Red Silurian

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

2 8 team leagues playing 14 games each and the top 2 or 4 in each going to playoffs

Not a bad format but you'd have to work it to keep the inter country games going

Guy:Incognito

Red Silurian wrote: »

Not a bad format but you'd have to work it to keep the inter country games going

But, what if we just .......................didnt, and stopped pandering to the derby stuff and just made it a league based on how good or bad teams are?

connemara man

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

But, what if we just .......................didnt, and stopped pandering to the derby stuff and just made it a league based on how good or bad teams are?

Not enough money in rugby for that

Red Silurian

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

But, what if we just .......................didnt, and stopped pandering to the derby stuff and just made it a league based on how good or bad teams are?

TV rights and ticket sales, nobody will care about beating the Italians

Guy:Incognito

connemara man wrote: »

Not enough money in rugby for that

Red Silurian wrote: »

TV rights and ticket sales, nobody will care about beating the Italians

The format changes, adding the SA teams etc are done with a view to growing the league (making more money). At some point it needs to be a proper merit based competition . Otherwise, why bother? They may as well just dump any teams that dont bring big crowds, close it off and just let the 4 Irish teams play each other a few times, then pick 3 or 4 games against other teams that bring the crowds.

Personally, I'd lean towards the last format in my first post, a 2 division format with promotion and relegation.

Red Silurian

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The format changes, adding the SA teams etc are done with a view to growing the league (making more money). At some point it needs to be a proper merit based competition . Otherwise, why bother? They may as well just dump any teams that dont bring big crowds, close it off and just let the 4 Irish teams play each other a few times, then pick 3 or 4 games against other teams that bring the crowds.

Personally, I'd lean towards the last format in my first post, a 2 division format with promotion and relegation.

The biggest competitions in the world don't have promotion or relegation, you look at the NBA, NFL, MLB etc etc

Plus the countries involved in Super Rugby, for all it's faults, has produced all but one world cup winner since it's inception,

Promotion and relegation simply don't work

Guy:Incognito

Red Silurian wrote: »

The biggest competitions in the world don't have promotion or relegation, you look at the NBA, NFL, MLB etc etc

Plus the countries involved in Super Rugby, for all it's faults, has produced all but one world cup winner since it's inception,

Promotion and relegation simply don't work

The only reason promotion and relegation enters it is because of the amount of teams now involved.
IMO the best and fairest system is a league where everyone plays everyone else home and away. This stuff of play x number of teams home and away and play y teams once either home or away doesnt produce a fair league.

We're at the point where theres too many teams for a 1 league , everyone plays everyone H&A, so the only fair option , imo, is to go like England and have 2 divisions. Add 4 more teams and have 2 10 team leagues, 1 up and a playoff between 2nd bottom and 2nd place in the lower league.

Podge_irl

The RFU Championship has multiple semi-pro teams and most of their teams wouldn't even be eligible to be promoted. There is no money in it and the only real interest is how easily the relegated Premiership team will win except for the years where a sugar daddy has pumped money into a different team.

No one in Celtic Rugby is going to accept a two division league. It is a complete non-starter.

Red Silurian

A better idea than promotion/relegation is to have separate tournaments, divide the league into the original 10 Celtic nations and 10 others encompassing the Italians, saffers and anybody else that wants to join them

We can meet teams from the other league in the champions or challenge cup

Not saying it's a good idea, but it's a better one than the promotion/relegation idea

guapos

As bad as the Welsh teams are (and desperately want to be play with their English friends) two divisions would just make the gulf bigger

Podge_irl

Red Silurian wrote: »

A better idea than promotion/relegation is to have separate tournaments, divide the league into the original 10 Celtic nations and 10 others encompassing the Italians, saffers and anybody else that wants to join them

We can meet teams from the other league in the champions or challenge cup

Not saying it's a good idea, but it's a better one than the promotion/relegation idea

The South African teams didn't join to play Benneton, Zebre and some assortment of Georgian/Romanian/whatever teams.