Income Tax decreases on the way?

Irish Praetorian

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh. JSA is cyclical, so if you would like to be honest about it, take the data that includes a FULL ECONOMIC CYCLE and draw a trend line through it. THAT is a trend, not what you presented. You presented your own fiction and anyone half educated in statistics would know this.

I'm beginning to realise that you don't understand this point at all.

Firstly, if you're going to force us all to endure the 'swooning exasperated flower' act, can you at least get the fundamentals right? It's not 'JSA' it's working age income supports, which is largely Jobseekers Allowance but also includes One Parent Family benefit, Jobseekers Benefit, and other measures.

Secondly, can you also spare us the laziness? It's somewhat amusing that for a discussion regarding employment support figures, you can't seem to be bothered to provide even the most basic data. I mean the kicker has to be that your contention seems both intuitive and plausible, it just seems to be encumbered by your apparent preference for making waspy remarks rather than actually adding something of substance - I mean who the hell types 'sigh'? Presumably that's what one gets from half an education in statistics. I'm guessing the other half is learning how to roll ones eyes in exasperation?

Lastly, would it be asking too much if you could deal with this yourself? I mean I've given you two trends in government spending over the past ten years and been content to leave it there. If you want to look into a bigger question I haven't asked or get a wider data range than I've used - well great, sounds like it could be an interesting read. Don't go extrapolating from my statements as an excuse to tell us all how unimpressed you are with them.

PommieBast

kowloon wrote: »

I'd prefer if they went after the ultra-wealthy and raised the minimum wage to encourage people to go to work.

How many ultra-wealthy does Ireland actually have?

Calhoun

Ireland doesn't necessarily need the corporate tax to attract foreign companies as we have a relatively educated workforce. However right now we do need it badly because housing workers is a nightmare.

Reducing income tax wont attract any serious foreign investor because unless any gains will be absorbed by housing and with the state of allot of our public services and how we currently spend the existing tax bucket its not as attractive compared to other countries.

ThunbergsAreGo

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

And their 1400 a month HAP cause they would be "homeless"

While their parents need to keep the 3 bed house with two rooms empty "in case the grandkids wasn't to stay"

Wanderer78

antimatterx wrote:

So looks like Leo is trying to make Ireland stay competitive. I think it's good he's saying this, and it's not the first time he's mentioned tax decreases.

Does he do that kite surfing thing, he should!

A fiscal conservative, with a dash of free market libertarian to boot, is gonna reduce income tax! Come on now, don't be naive!

ThunbergsAreGo

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

That would be where my thinking lies and where I think the change ought to be made. If there are people in need of relief it is the class of dual income individuals, hemmed in by mortgage payments and having to seriously re-consider raising a family due to the expense. That is where we should focus things like child benefit - not as cash payments for those not paying tax, but as tax credits which can be of particular benefit to those families who are already making sizeable contributions to the government coffer.

We really need to make sure that the fundamental drive of humans, to work, settle down, have a family, etc, remains within the reach of those who work hard and pay hard, and doesn't end up outsourced to those with little/no income who are dependent on the state.

Totally agree with this. The people whos kids are more likely to fund the state in the future are being priced out of it, or having them to late to have many. These are also the same people being taxed too much and hammered for everything.

Need to encourage these to have kids. Not sure whose remit it is, but I have zero confidence anything will happen.

oceanman

JimmyCorkhill wrote: »

If tax goes up, I sincerely hope the dole/welfare goes down.

not a chance...

mrslancaster

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

And their 1400 a month HAP cause they would be "homeless"

Many people have a huge problem with HAP which is money spent to help house citizens (afaik) and we spend the same amount or more every year on foreign aid but there's never any whingeing about that. In 2019 ireland provided the 12th highest % of gnp to overseas development aid, more than canada, Australia or Japan.

Wanderer78

mrslancaster wrote: »

Many people have a huge problem with HAP which is money spent to help house citizens (afaik) and we spend the same amount or more every year on foreign aid but there's never any whingeing about that. In 2019 ireland provided the 12th highest % of gnp to overseas development aid, more than canada, Australia or Japan.

foreign aid is needed, again, our significant rise in the cost of living, has little or nothing to do with foreigners or the unemployed for that matter, its the failure of the financialisation of our economies, which has just caused the rapid rise in the cost of property and land, hence why our markets are completely wrecked

ineedeuro

mrslancaster wrote: »

Many people have a huge problem with HAP which is money spent to help house citizens (afaik) and we spend the same amount or more every year on foreign aid but there's never any whingeing about that. In 2019 ireland provided the 12th highest % of gnp to overseas development aid, more than canada, Australia or Japan.

The problem is not helping to get citizen housing. The problem is all the HAP system has done is drive rent higher than ever before. I have seen people posting on website etc saying "I have XYZ signed off for HAP and looking for accommodation". That is just a crazy model.

It's not like a landlord is going to respond and go, not its ok you only need to pay me ABC.....the system is broken and that's why it needs to be replaced.

BASHIR

mrslancaster wrote: »

Many people have a huge problem with HAP which is money spent to help house citizens (afaik) and we spend the same amount or more every year on foreign aid but there's never any whingeing about that. In 2019 ireland provided the 12th highest % of gnp to overseas development aid, more than canada, Australia or Japan.

The problem isn't with the money being spent itself, it's with the way it's used. HAP is inflating the price of rent. Portions of this public money is being given to private investors. That's the issue.

_Kaiser_

Wanderer78 wrote: »

foreign aid is needed, again, our significant rise in the cost of living, has little or nothing to do with foreigners or the unemployed for that matter, its the failure of the financialisation of our economies, which has just caused the rapid rise in the cost of property and land, hence why our markets are completely wrecked

For a country that is massively in debt and which has significant domestic issues it's failing to tackle, giving away hundreds of millions each year in foreign aid, as well as ramping up plans to give "asylum seekers" their own accommodation within months, is frankly ridiculous.

It's even worse when you remember that even in the height of the recession, when we were borrowing to keep the lights on, we were STILL giving away 650 MILLION euro every year!

Charity begins at home, and we've more than enough problems of our own to sort out before we start worrying about everywhere else.

ThunbergsAreGo

Wanderer78 wrote: »

foreign aid is needed, again, our significant rise in the cost of living, has little or nothing to do with foreigners or the unemployed for that matter, its the failure of the financialisation of our economies, which has just caused the rapid rise in the cost of property and land, hence why our markets are completely wrecked

Why is it needed?

ineedeuro

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

For a country that is massively in debt and which has significant domestic issues it's failing to tackle, giving away hundreds of millions each year in foreign aid, as well as ramping up plans to give "asylum seekers" their own accommodation within months, is frankly ridiculous.

It's even worse when you remember that even in the height of the recession, when we were borrowing to keep the lights on, we were STILL giving away 650 MILLION euro every year!

Charity begins at home, and we've more than enough problems of our own to sort out before we start worrying about everywhere else.

This has been discussed many times, personally I would like them to stop for 2 years, use the money to sort out Ireland and then return to donating but it will never happen
It seems out politicians are more interested in keeping a good profile in Europe with the hope of a handy number coming their direction if they get turfed out of Irish politics

mrslancaster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

For a country that is massively in debt and which has significant domestic issues it's failing to tackle, giving away hundreds of millions each year in foreign aid, as well as ramping up plans to give "asylum seekers" their own accommodation within months, is frankly ridiculous.

It's even worse when you remember that even in the height of the recession, when we were borrowing to keep the lights on, we were STILL giving away 650 MILLION euro every year!

Charity begins at home, and we've more than enough problems of our own to sort out before we start worrying about everywhere else.

And it would be interesting to see the total amount spent on ODA since the financial crash, it was €869m in 2019. That would build a few social houses or help build a children's hospital. No wait, we'll just pay more tax

Wanderer78

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

For a country that is massively in debt and which has significant domestic issues it's failing to tackle, giving away hundreds of millions each year in foreign aid, as well as ramping up plans to give "asylum seekers" their own accommodation within months, is frankly ridiculous.

It's even worse when you remember that even in the height of the recession, when we were borrowing to keep the lights on, we were STILL giving away 650 MILLION euro every year!

Charity begins at home, and we've more than enough problems of our own to sort out before we start worrying about everywhere else.

interesting global map on debt included! we re not really all that indebted compared to others, and its important to always remember, it was in fact private debt that caused the 08 crash!

once again, the scary foreigners are not really the problem here, we have decided its best to allow particular elements of our economy be the ultimate drivers of our economy, primarily the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), leading to a catastrophic failure in these markets, and it looks like we re hell bend in maintaining this also!

Wanderer78

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Why is it needed?

theres a clear indication that wealth has been continuously moving from developing countries towards developed nations such as ours, leading to a deep indebting of these developing nations, primarily by western financial institutions, or basically, we re fcuking them over, by extracting as much as possible from them, then wrapping them up in debt to boot, just to make sure they stay down

Normal One

Leo can undermine Micheál at every opportunity because they both know they are terrified of an election. They never, ever have the interests of the Irish people in their minds as they play these silly games.

Wanderer78

Normal One wrote: »

Leo can undermine Micheál at every opportunity because they both know they are terrified of an election. They never, ever have the interests of the Irish people in their minds as they play these silly games.

i disagree here, theyre just dangerously clueless, but to be fair to them, its not just them that are clueless, their advisors are to, both ffg are toast now, and theyre causing their own falling

ineedeuro

Normal One wrote: »

Leo can undermine Micheál at every opportunity because they both know they are terrified of an election. They never, ever have the interests of the Irish people in their minds as they play these silly games.

Leo is Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, this is exactly what he should be talking about.

tayto lover

antimatterx wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-s-tax-rates-a-major-disincentive-for-remote-workers-says-varakdar-1.4591155

So looks like Leo is trying to make Ireland stay competitive. I think it's good he's saying this, and it's not the first time he's mentioned tax decreases.

I think at a start the standard rate cut off point needs to move up towards the 50K mark. Then slowly reduce the other income taxes.

I’m still waiting on the help Leo promised to the “man who gets up early to go to work “. No sign of it yet.

ThunbergsAreGo

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m still waiting on the help Leo promised to the “man who gets up early to go to work “. No sign of it yet.

Many of those in NGOs get up early in the morning

crisco10

I'm just reflecting, I left college in 2008 and joined the workforce, lucky to get a job (and keep it) since then. But in that 13 years of having proper grown up jobs, I don't think I have felt the impact of an improvement in my take home due to lowering of taxes.

I have a vague memory of a "giveaway" budget 2 or 3 years ago, where I got an extra e10 a month or so. But other than that, it's all either been static or eating into my takehome pay.

Wanderer78

crisco10 wrote: »

I'm just reflecting, I left college in 2008 and joined the workforce, lucky to get a job (and keep it) since then. But in that 13 years of having proper grown up jobs, I don't think I have felt the impact of an improvement in my take home due to lowering of taxes.

I have a vague memory of a "giveaway" budget 2 or 3 years ago, where I got an extra e10 a month or so. But other than that, it's all either been static or eating into my takehome pay.

yup, this has occurred in most western economies, particularly since the crash, and you d wonder why we ve ended up with election outcomes such as trump and brexit!

growleaves

Wanderer78 wrote: »

interesting global map on debt included! we re not really all that indebted compared to others, and its important to always remember, it was in fact private debt that caused the 08 crash!

once again, the scary foreigners are not really the problem here, we have decided its best to allow particular elements of our economy be the ultimate drivers of our economy, primarily the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), leading to a catastrophic failure in these markets, and it looks like we re hell bend in maintaining this also!

Phony GDP figures aside Ireland is more indebted than Greece and the third most indebted country in the world.

Irish public debt third highest in the developed world

Ireland to have highest debt per head in Europe this year

"Cost of Covid-19 restrictions to leave debt per head of almost €20,000 over EU average"

Also the covid lockdowns have shown that the financial crisis was not a once off, we will be further enslaved to creditors each time there is a 'crisis'. About a once a decade or so.

And yes we persist with ruinous financialisation of our economy.

rob316

A mid rate tax bracket is badly needed to cover 35-50k, paying 42% plus USC on anything over 35k is just wrong. Having the SRCOP at 50k is fantasy stuff but a 30% mid rate would be nice.

You would love to see it, a big tax and social welfare shake up.

Geuze

rob316 wrote: »

A mid rate tax bracket is badly needed to cover 35-50k, paying 42% plus USC on anything over 35k is just wrong. Having the SRCOP at 50k is fantasy stuff but a 30% mid rate would be nice.

You would love to see it, a big tax and social welfare shake up.

I suggest four rates:

20% - 30% - 40% - 50%

The top 50% rate to start at a minimum of 2x average FT earnings, or 95k-100k approx.

Integrate USC into PRSI, keep that base very broad, no exemptions, make all workers pay PRSI/USC from 100 pw upwards, try to keep the combined rate low.

PRSI/USC should have a ceiling where the top 50% rate starts, so the top combined rate is 50%.

Wanderer78

growleaves wrote: »

Phony GDP figures aside Ireland is more indebted than Greece and the third most indebted country in the world.

Irish public debt third highest in the developed world

Ireland to have highest debt per head in Europe this year

"Cost of Covid-19 restrictions to leave debt per head of almost €20,000 over EU average"

Also the covid lockdowns have shown that the financial crisis was not a once off, we will be further enslaved to creditors each time there is a 'crisis'. About a once a decade or so.

And yes we persist with ruinous financialisation of our economy.

once again, where is ireland on the map in relation to other nations!

one again, private debt actually caused the 08 crash, nothing to do with public debt whatsoever! and once again, public debt is nothing much to worry about, as covid has well proven, it is simply the public entity of the money supply, which simply just needs to be taxed back out of the economy, if needs be. without which, our economy would currently be screwed if it didnt exist, as theres currently very low demand for the private sector money supply, i.e. credit!

the usual fiscal conservative nonsense being sprouted again, budgets do not need to be balanced, as long as the debts are serviced and are serviceable throughout their life, everything is hunky dory, this is common practice globally, and doesnt cause much problems, as long as debts are serviced, i.e. plough on with the borrowing folks, to get the real recovery going, the one we should have been experiencing since 08!

Geuze

growleaves wrote: »

Phony GDP figures aside Ireland is more indebted than Greece and the third most indebted country in the world.

Irish public debt third highest in the developed world

Ireland to have highest debt per head in Europe this year

"Cost of Covid-19 restrictions to leave debt per head of almost €20,000 over EU average"

Also the covid lockdowns have shown that the financial crisis was not a once off, we will be further enslaved to creditors each time there is a 'crisis'. About a once a decade or so.

And yes we persist with ruinous financialisation of our economy.

Yes, we have a large public debt, and our current budgets deficits are high.

We have borrowed massively during 2020 and 2021.

Obviously as the economy recovers, the budget deficits will fall, and they have to fall.

We can't continue to borrow such high amounts each year.

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, we have a large public debt, and our current budgets deficits are high.

We have borrowed massively during 2020 and 2021.

Obviously as the economy recovers, the budget deficits will fall, and they have to fall.

We can't continue to borrow such high amounts each year.

...and we cant keep falling back to a primarily credit fueled economy!

once again, deficits are just the public entity of the money supply, and potentially/probably the safer money supply