Booing the knee *Mod Note in Post 1232 and OP*

irishgrover

Eric Cartman wrote: »

BLM is a radical reactionary group that participate in acts that could be described as terror (riots etc. In the US)

Bringing politics into sport supporting that group is denigrating the sport

I do believe every player taking the knee outside the US is wrong, every player in the US I feel isnt choosing the best way to vent their frustrations.

It's hard to respond appropriately when the argument is this stupid

Cordell

gmisk wrote: »

If there is a racism problem? Come on now..

So it's best to just accept that there is racism and do nothing? That is your solution, brilliant.

Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

gmisk

gmisk wrote: »

So it's best to just accept that there is racism and do nothing? That is your solution, brilliant.

Which wasn't said. We have laws. We have social conditioning against racism. And that's been ongoing for decades... which is hardly nothing...

What do you expect to see that's different from what's already being done?

FunLover18

Cordell wrote: »

Well, there was the odd banana thrown into the pitch and the odd chanting that never made the news, but now booing is broadcasted worldwide.
If you ask me, if there is a racism problem in Europe this is making it worse.

So they should stop protesting racism because it's agitating the racists? Did you actually read that back and think about what you'd just written?

*If* there is a racism problem? FFS, we're talking about a movement that is telling you there's a racism problem.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What does the thousandth step look like? If this was a journey with a tangible end goal, I think people would be on board. But I think it's an overblown problem - black people face bigger barriers to success from within their own community - gang crime, black on black violence, absent fathers being the big ones.

So let's blame black people for their issues and not the systemic racism that keeps them in poverty.

I think you'll find that those issues are exclusive to black people but have been proven to be linked to poverty.

Don't try to argue otherwise. There's a mountain of scientific research and papers published to back up that up and any published material stating otherwise has been found out as lies being pushed by a racist idiot.

Danzy

Danzy wrote: »

It's labeled and presented as one thing by the millionaires doing it, and the majority white middle class that laud it over their evening brandy.

In its home America, it was not even accepted by most black players or club staff, then again it wasn't about them.

How long will it go on, till those doing it, get no thrill from doing it and especially talking about it.

Very true. There is a big disconnect between the journalist/media class and the rest of society. The media have to tow the line unquestioningly or face being ostracised from their profession. Someone like Jonathan Liew is making the divisions far worse than they otherwise would, and his career is booming off the back of exaggerated racism. The bigger the problem, the better he looks by writing opinion pieces about it.

suicide_circus

During the whole furore around George Floyd i could almost see where this gesture could have meaning but his killer has been dealt with, his family are millionaires, Trump has been vanquished, protests have largely dried up and the world has kept turning.

extra gravy

suicide_circus wrote: »

Your points stagger from wrong to dumb and back again

suicide_circus wrote: »

Perhaps if they knelt on both knees the racism would cease?

Great insight from yourself again.

Billgirlylegs

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't agree with the booing. Everyone should have a right to protest although some causes are more acceptable to the establishment than others. Would be nice to see how an Anti-Israeli protest would go down. Could happen in the Euros btw.

Players should also have the right not to protest and no player should be put under pressure to do so if they don't want to.

There used to be this thing in US Golf where military service people would hold the flag on one of the holes while the players were putting. They flag was changed to the stars and stripes for this hole. Players were expected to shake hands with the service person when walking to the next hole. Many of the players were from other parts of the world and may not have agreed with US foreign policy. I can only imagine the media sh1t fit there would have been if a player indicated dissent by not doing the hand shake.

Was at US basketball game with the family and we sat through the national anthem. Got a few dirty looks. Not my anthem buddy.

Case of "When in Rome".
You were showing disrespect to "The Flag" ie the traditions, values and people of the country.

As regards taking the knee, it is a particularly American thing to do.
Colin Kaepernick wanted to protest that he, as a person of colour, was not entirely represented (respected?) in American Society, and could not in conscience swear allegiance publicly to "The Flag" or The National Anthem. He canvassed US military personnel to ask what is a respectful protest. They told him sitting/turning his back is disrespectful, but suggested facing the flag while kneeling (showing respect) was acceptable. That was five or six years ago and he got some bits and pieces of support, but his career was finished over it, and it hardly merits a mention now.

What English players do before the match is a harmless, trivial protest.
Whether there is any point to it or whether it will have any effect is immaterial.
No disrespect is shown, and it is done in consultation with opposition and referee.

Other countries may take a different view.
International teams may take different action. I understand that Hungary players made a personal gesture by pointing to their "Respect/Anti Racism" armbands.
The Irish kneeled. Did they consult beforehand to find out what was the local practice. Kneeling may have been seen to be disrespectful.

nazmoalex

I see sheep wrote: »

Marcus Thuram was the first player in European football to take a knee, he was followed by a number of Dortmund players including England's Jadon Sancho.
.

So Liverpool were the first 'team' to do it then or not?
I genuinely don't know.

No need for the snide comments.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

So let's blame black people for their issues and not the systemic racism that keeps them in poverty.

I think you'll find that those issues are exclusive to black people but have been proven to be linked to poverty.

Don't try to argue otherwise. There's a mountain of scientific research and papers published to back up that up and any published material stating otherwise has been found out as lies being pushed by a racist idiot.

What systemic racism keeps black people in poverty? How has Raheem Sterling, Tyrone Mings etc. escaped that "systemic racism" to earn the millions they currently earn?

The answer is that there is no system keeping them down. Black players like Sterling/Mings have, through merit, talent and hard work, have risen to the top of the game and deserve every penny they earn.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Which wasn't said. We have laws. We have social conditioning against racism. And that's been ongoing for decades... which is hardly nothing...

What do you expect to see that's different from what's already being done?

Well that is great. But it obviously isn't good enough as there are still problems with racism around the world, even it supposedly developed nations. Why rest on your laurels when these laws can be improved and amended to make things better.

Also the likes of Hungary, Russia and Poland show what can happen when you take the foot off the pedal and allow far right and racist thinking fester.

So what exactly is the harm in highlighting that people are still experiencing racism and that the current measures aren't enough to combat it? Where is the issue?

jam_mac_jam

jaykay74 wrote: »

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

How do you know he is white or a man?

Does the level of melatonin in your skin mean you have no right to an opinion. Regardless of what that opinion is.

Is that not racist?

Danzy

There is talk that ticket prices in the English game are going to have a steep rise in the next season.

So that's one way of solving the booing, make the crowds less working class.

Get an audience who gets more of a thrill out of American issues.

There is also a lot of work to be done on convincing people that it has anything to do with racism.

FunLover18

kildare lad wrote: »

I'm talking about the footballers not the fans . If they really believed in social justice they should just boycott the world cup.

Oh please, that's nonsense. You're playing whataboutery to undermine the knee. If you want to talk about the WC I'm sure there's a thread for it somewhere.

I see sheep

nazmoalex wrote: »

So Liverpool were the first 'team' to do it then or not?
I genuinely don't know.

No need for the snide comments.

I'm not your butler. I've already told you but you can google it as you please.

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

I can only compare with how it used to be. Bananas thrown at players. Monkey chants etc. That was ugly, horrible racism.

However that type of stuff has been almost completely eradicated from the game in England, bar the odd isolated incident. That's what I mean by it being overblown. The Kick it Out campaign was almost dead up until a couple of years ago, victims of their great success at getting rid of racism from football. Then social media came in, people started virtue signalling to boost their profiles, and all of a sudden people are running around in mass hysteria thinking their is endemic racism rife in football. Very little specifics though. Just a handful of incidents considering the amount of minutes of football that gets played every week.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What systemic racism keeps black people in poverty? How has Raheem Sterling, Tyrone Mings etc. escaped that "systemic racism" to earn the millions they currently earn?

The answer is that there is no system keeping them down. Black players like Sterling/Mings have, through merit, talent and hard work, have risen to the top of the game and deserve every penny they earn.

Another logical fallacy. Sterling and Mings are exceptions to the rule rather than every black kid out there should be multimillionaire footballers with a little hard work and elbow grease. Can you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

FunLover18

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well the booers maybe racists. It’s perfectly legitimate for the rest of us to ask why the knee is allowed and not Palestinian flags, why mcclean is not supported by the FA, why opposing wearing a poppy isn’t protected, why there aren’t other protests allowed like anti war protests (by players). Pogba got away with the Palestine flag but was warned not to do it again. The cynic in me would argue this is more about American cultural imperialism than anything else.

Players will be wearing the poppy and taking the knee in November no doubt, while British supplied bombs rain down on Yemen.

This is a thread specifically about the booers. Let's not all feign surprise at the hypocrisy in football at once? I'm all for players and football tackling those issues too and I hate the poppy but the knee is about one specific issue and you either support that or not. Playing whataboutery only serves to undermine it.

gmisk

Cordell wrote: »

Well, is there? I mean a real problem, not that casual racism of some fans?
Europe has no history of racism as US does, why pretend that it has?
If they really care about black lives, there are plenty of black lives lost in Africa to war and starvation, and not to racism.

Ah come on lad it's only casual racism....

"Europe has no history of racism" are you joking? Europe was not involved in the slave trade, forced colonisation etc....lol....

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can only compare with how it used to be. Bananas thrown at players. Monkey chants etc. That was ugly, horrible racism.

However that type of stuff has been almost completely eradicated from the game in England, bar the odd isolated incident. That's what I mean by it being overblown. The Kick it Out campaign was almost dead up until a couple of years ago, victims of their great success at getting rid of racism from football. Then social media came in, people started virtue signalling to boost their profiles, and all of a sudden people are running around in mass hysteria thinking their is endemic racism rife in football. Very little specifics though. Just a handful of incidents considering the amount of minutes of football that gets played every week.

Racism isn't just in football. They aren't just protesting against racism on football

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Another logical fallacy. Sterling and Mings are exceptions to the rule rather than every black kid out there should be multimillionaire footballers with a little hard work and elbow grease. Can you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

I know not everyone can be a top player. But how did some players escape the "systemic racism" supposedly keeping them down? What's different from them versus others?

FishOnABike

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It should be replaced by
dcade of the Rosary.

Ah now. If we had to say the rosary for ten years before the match we'd never hang around for the game to start.

paw patrol

the knee is about racism and nothing to do with BLM , it's just a coincidence that BLM used the same gesture.

that's what they say and it seems very reasonable but...

somehow the same doesn't apply other gestures that are not the fashion of the day.

for example , all some loon (like the ADL) have to do is declare some nazi once liked a gesture/symbol and now it is a recognised as hateful and all subscribers should be run out of town regardless of its' origins or actual meaning.
The swastikas is the prime example of course but a lot of Norse culture is blacklisted in the same way.

funny , the logic only applies one way why is that?

if the players want to combat racism they could have easily selected another gesture or done something actually practical.

if I bothered to go to a game , i'd boo.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well that is great. But it obviously isn't good enough as there are still problems with racism around the world, even it supposedly developed nations. Why rest on your laurels when these laws can be improved and amended to make things better.

These laws are being improved/amended over time, and that was happening long before the BLM movement came along. We already had a social movement that saw racism as being unacceptable in society.

Also the likes of Hungary, Russia and Poland show what can happen when you take the foot off the pedal and allow far right and racist thinking fester.

All of whom have historical belief systems with regards to racism, and never attempted to implement social change to reduce the effects of racism. Why not add in China and South Africa too? probably because you want to focus on countries which are predominately white.

So what exactly is the harm in highlighting that people are still experiencing racism and that the current measures aren't enough to combat it? Where is the issue?

Because it's not a simple reminder. It's a political gesture, and it doesn't concern racism in general, but rather seeks to elevate Black people above others. I could understand if there was a desire to deal with racism for all racial groups, but there's been very little of that. Instead, the focus has mostly been aimed at Black people. Which I find to be rather hypocritical, and empty of real virtue.

As I said before, if the taking the knee had been done for a month, and then, no longer, it would have been fine (although the condemnation against those who didn't take the knee was completely wrong).

Now, perhaps you could answer the question I asked?

jakiah

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Another logical fallacy. Sterling and Mings are exceptions to the rule rather than every black kid out there should be multimillionaire footballers with a little hard work and elbow grease. Can you not see how ridiculous this argument is?

Minorities are massively overrepresented in professional football. What is taking the knee even about? It started as a BLM protest, then it seemed to be about players being racially abused on social media, and now it seems to be about societal racism in general?

Its not even clear what these protests are actually for/against. Is there any defined goal or outcome for these protests? The whole thing seems ridiculous tbh.

extra gravy

Wombatman wrote: »

There is still racism in football, but to say it is at an all time high is a complete untruth and should be challenged. Black players couldn't even join clubs in the early days FFS.

You think you know more about it than a top black player? Do please share your knowledge and experience of racism in football.

Strumms

kildare lad wrote: »

I'm sorry but imo kneeling and wearing t shirts doesn't achieve anything . They done all the kneeling/blm stuff for a year last year in the NBA, and the commissioner told them to stop because ratings were going down . So the players stopped. Talk about putting money were you're mouth is . If the footballers really cared about the thousands that've died in Qatar , they should come together and refuse to play instead of wearing a t-shirt before a game . At the end of the day , them stadiums they'll be playing in were built on the back of thousands of dead peasants who were employed as cheap labour , so no , wearing a t-shirt saying human rights doesn't really do it for me .

That would require actioning rather then gesturing ... the money will be put in their wallets and taking the knee will continue as the gesture du jour... BLM crowd and the wokies are tremendously delighted though for no other reason then they see it as them having an ‘in’ into mainstream culture and sports, it’s advertising ....

“ look, we are not letting them play their game until they recognize us “...

It’s SFA got to do with education... if your schoolteacher and parents didn’t enable you to know racism is wrong... a fella going down on one knee on a football pitch for xx seconds isn’t going to do jack shît to change your mind...

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

White guy claims racism is overblown, close thread lads.

Do you think a person's opinion can be deligitimised because of their skin colour?

Are you a believer that white people should be quiet when it comes to racial issues if the don't agree wholesale with BLM?

Tombo2001

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Booing people disrespecting the anthem and the game for taking a knee to support a reactionary terror group is not racist.

The 40 thanks this post received tells me everything I need to know about the mindset on this forum.

Its well and truly been hijacked.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

This is a thread specifically about the booers. Let's not all feign surprise at the hypocrisy in football at once? I'm all for players and football tackling those issues too and I hate the poppy but the knee is about one specific issue and you either support that or not. Playing whataboutery only serves to undermine it.

It's perfectly legitimate in this thread to point out that some political acts are supported by the FA and some are not. The UK isn't the US anyway, and it has its own particular history. Colin Kaepernick's closest equivalent in the UK is McClean, both refuse to pay tribute to the flag or poppy because of the history and/or present day discrimination of their respective countries.

Cordell

gmisk wrote: »

Ah come on lad it's only casual racism....

"Europe has no history of racism" are you joking? Europe was not involved in the slave trade, forced colonisation etc....lol....

I'm sure those slaves will be grateful to see the knee.
I'm talking about racism that actually affects black people in Europe. Things like European Jim Crow laws, segregation and discrimination that happens now, not 400 years ago - what is this then stop the racism that was already stopped in the past?
In any case, the vast majority of black people here are not descendants of slaves, they either came voluntarily or they are descendants of Africans that came here voluntarily. And between a random Nigerian and a white European, guess who's more likely to have ancestors involved in the slave trade?

jakiah

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Racism isn't just in football. They aren't just protesting against racism on football

Can you point to a link which actually definitively says what the protesting is about? It seems to change all the time.

nazmoalex

I see sheep wrote: »

I'm not your butler. I've already told you but you can google it as you please.

I only made reference to Liverpool because it was the first time I saw a team take the knee. And remembered that image of them at the centre circle. Marcus Thuram, as you kindly pointed out did it before that, the day before.

Thanks. Have a good day

Strumms

ypres5 wrote: »

Anyone caught booing taking the knee should be issued a lifetime ban. It should be easier pick them out in a socially distanced stadium. If they've a problem with black players and colleagues fighting oppression then they'd best stay home.

A lifetime ban ? For expressing an opinion.... not very democratic

Retr0gamer

kildare lad wrote: »

What are black people banned from doing ?? If systemic racism is so bad , how can black people become cops , politicians, judges , lawyers, nurses, civil servants , even the president of USA twice , literally black people can become everything that keeps the system going. I'm not saying racist doesn't exist , but sure keep telling black people the world is against them , systemic racism etc . That'll help .

It's because it's much harder for black people to get into those positions than a white person. Poverty means they have less options when it education and often receive a worse education. It's tougher for them to get a job against a white person with the same qualifications. They can have their lives ruined due to the police treating them more harshly than a white person.

And before you argue that this isn't true there is verified scientific studies carried out on this with the statistics to back it up. Sure black people have all these options open to them but more than likely it's far more of an up hill struggle for them just because of the colour of their skin and the discrimination they face, even of that discrimination is subconscious.

Also the only reason black people can do this in some countries is because they had to protest for the right to do it. They highlighted the injustice they faced. It was a start but it's not over.

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The 40 thanks this post received tells me everything I need to know about the mindset on this forum.

Its well and truly been hijacked.

There's far more than 40 people on the forum... Your objection, though, tells me everything I need to know about your mindset. :rolleyes:

TefalBrain

Wouldn't be booing myself but i can understand the ones who are. Personally i go to sports as an escape from the real world and to be entertained, i don't want to be reminded constantly of political or societal issues. I know Zaha at Palace has stopped doing it as he sees it as pointless at this stage and i commend him for that and i'm sure many others are of a similar mindset but are terrified of the woke cancel brigade who would destroy them if they do especially if that player was white.

Danzy

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Racism isn't just in football. They aren't just protesting against racism on football

Are they even protesting against racism in general?

Looks like a small clique of rich, mostly White people being self indulgent.

People don't believe them, that's a lot of the reason there is a backlash from working class fans and why the great and the good are pushing back on the booing.

jakiah

Strumms wrote: »

A lifetime ban ? For expressing an opinion.... not very democratic

You can tell the vast, vast majority of people chiming in on this have never set foot inside a football ground and never will. Every matchgoing football fan who objects to political gestures becoming part of the matchday is automatically 'a racist' (or an IRA supporter in the case of the poppy).

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The 40 thanks this post received tells me everything I need to know about the mindset on this forum.

Its well and truly been hijacked.

It's funny how it's "hijacked" when it's a sentiment you disagree with, but "popular opinion" when it ties into your ideals.

paw patrol

gmisk wrote: »

Ah come on lad it's only casual racism....

"Europe has no history of racism" are you joking? Europe was not involved in the slave trade, forced colonisation etc....lol....

kildare lad wrote: »

Africans were a vital cog in the slave trade to , and there's still a slave trade going on there today . Are do they get a pass because they're black

this is spot on.

none of us are living 100s of years in the past, the notion that we should be ashamed of our past is bizarre. It's a weird concept to make white people self loath and so many fall for it probably more bizarre that the notion itself.

But doesn't apply to africans, jews, arabs or asians...just whitey.

in fact, suggestions of reparations in Nigeria from tribes who sold slaves were laughed at. But some how white people have to feel shame or fork out cash. why is that? why is it suggested the west pay for reparations but no internal soul searching within africa?

what else is at play? cos it certainly isn't soul-cleansing regarding slavery, if that was the case it would apply to all.

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Do you think a person's opinion can be deligitimised because of their skin colour?

Are you a believer that white people should be quiet when it comes to racial issues if the don't agree wholesale with BLM?

People that don't agree black lives matter.

Read that again and see if you see anything wrong with it.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's because it's much harder for black people to get into those positions than a white person. Poverty means they have less options when it education and often receive a worse education. It's tougher for them to get a job against a white person with the same qualifications.

Asians face the same problems, and don't seem to have any serious issues with being successful, either in education or their careers. In many cases, they're coming from countries which are as poor as any African nation.

When you say "Black people", are you including the US in all of this, or simply looking at Europe?

Retr0gamer

jakiah wrote: »

Can you point to a link which actually definitively says what the protesting is about? It seems to change all the time.

The knee was first taken on 2016. It symbolised a stance against racism. That's a long time before there was a BLM movement.

Can you give a link to say that taking the knee has got anything to do with BLM? Or is it just a racist projection to try and delegitimise the gesture.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's because it's much harder for black people to get into those positions than a white person. Poverty means they have less options when it education and often receive a worse education. It's tougher for them to get a job against a white person with the same qualifications. They can have their lives ruined due to the police treating them more harshly than a white person.

And before you argue that this isn't true there is verified scientific studies carried out on this with the statistics to back it up. Sure black people have all these options open to them but more than likely it's far more of an up hill struggle for them just because of the colour of their skin and the discrimination they face, even of that discrimination is subconscious.

Also the only reason black people can do this in some countries is because they had to protest for the right to do it. They highlighted the injustice they faced. It was a start but it's not over.

The irony is, while people say things like that to black children, that they are going to have it harder than the white man, the cycle of victimhood will perpetuate.

I do my bit to fight racism, I treat everyone according to their personality and character, not by their skin colour.

Racism of any kind (including "positive" discrimination), regardless of the colour of the person doing it, is disgusting

extra gravy

Strumms wrote: »

A lifetime ban ? For expressing an opinion.... not very democratic

Yet you and others here are complaining about footballers expressing their opinion. The irony.

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The knee was first taken on 2016. It symbolised a stance against racism. That's a long time before there was a BLM movement.

Can you give a link to say that taking the knee has got anything to do with BLM? Or is it just a racist projection to try and delegitimise the gesture.

Saying that taking the knee is linked to BLM is a racist projection?

Now that's some leap.

Danzy

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It's because it's much harder for black people to get into those positions than a white person. Poverty means they have less options when it education and often receive a worse education. It's tougher for them to get a job against a white person with the same qualifications. They can have their lives ruined due to the police treating them more harshly than a white person.

And before you argue that this isn't true there is verified scientific studies carried out on this with the statistics to back it up. Sure black people have all these options open to them but more than likely it's far more of an up hill struggle for them just because of the colour of their skin and the discrimination they face, even of that discrimination is subconscious.

Also the only reason black people can do this in some countries is because they had to protest for the right to do it. They highlighted the injustice they faced. It was a start but it's not over.

Statistics show that in America, black people are among the highest achieving demographics, and per capital are the demographic most over represented in Wall St. companies.

That's Africans.

In BLM activist circles and supporters, both of which in America are overwhelmingly White middle and up class, there is a nasty undercurrent towards Africans and Asians in America, beacuse both are top performing demographics, by considerable margins.

This is more about narcissism than racism.

paw patrol

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The knee was first taken on 2016. It symbolised a stance against racism. That's a long time before there was a BLM movement.

Can you give a link to say that taking the knee has got anything to do with BLM? Or is it just a racist projection to try and delegitimise the gesture.

BLM began in 2013