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Is a minimum international level of corporation tax a threat to Ireland?

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Comments

  • #2


    fash wrote: »
    IIRC, that "no Apple store" thing was a weird consequence of the original tax wheeze Apple based on "not being tax resident" which became subject to the EU case.

    I just think its very strange that we has apple support employees and tax and legal employees and no apple store.

    do we mot "deserve" one. It was the reason i switched to android after 10 years of being in the apple infrastructure.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    How many staff do they employ ?

    And how are you so confident in that statement. Specifics please.

    A few hundred. I'm not giving specifics on the company. It's just a fact that they came for tax reasons.


  • #2


    Peterteanh wrote: »
    A few hundred. I'm not giving specifics on the company. It's just a fact that they came for tax reasons.

    The specifics I'm asking for are as to how you are aware tax reasons.

    Companies don't throw up hundreds of jobs and spent millions open offices in Ireland for mere tax efficiency.

    There are various other reasons. I suspect you may not be in the loop that you think you are.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    The specifics I'm asking for are as to how you are aware tax reasons.

    Companies don't throw up hundreds of jobs and spent millions open offices in Ireland for mere tax efficiency.

    There are various other reasons. I suspect you may not be in the loop that you think you are.

    I'm not giving you specifics, jobs are included as well obviously but the ultimate first reason in locating to Ireland was tax. You then develop a business off this using other tax breaks, R & D grants etc.

    This isn't in the least bit controversial. Here's something else that is going to blow your mind. MNC's only care about profit and shareholders. They don't care about anything else.


  • #2


    We're not. It's an international agreement that we should sign up to but nobody can make us.

    Spoken with the confidence of someone neither affected and probably not in Ireland.

    Fake moral righteousness is no substitute for poverty and unemployment in the real world, not the one of make believe where everyone plays fair.

    The country should reject the deal, simple as that.


  • #2


    Spoken with the confidence of someone neither affected and probably not in Ireland.

    Fake moral righteousness is no substitute for poverty and unemployment in the real world, not the one of make believe where everyone plays fair.

    The country should reject the deal, simple as that.

    So Ireland and its people have absolutely nothing more to offer than a low corporation tax rate?


  • #2


    Peterteanh wrote: »
    I'm not giving you specifics, jobs are included as well obviously but the ultimate first reason in locating to Ireland was tax. You then develop a business off this using other tax breaks, R & D grants etc.

    Are you on the board for this company? I'm just curious how you can speak so confidently about the reasons for setting up in Ireland.

    Do you know which other countries were considered and why they were ultimately not chosen?


  • #2


    So Ireland and its people have absolutely nothing more to offer than a low corporation tax rate?

    Ireland Inc is on the wrong side of this argument , however if we could pull in 15% of the corporation tax available to us it would be a gamechanger .


  • #2


    seamus wrote: »
    Most of these huge tech multinationals have huge bases in San Francisco, with property prices and wages off the charts, massive social issues and poor infrastructure. Dublin is tame in comparison.

    Companies and people are leaning San Francisco.
    2.2bn isn't a huge loss in context of our total budget. There are places we can make it up.

    That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.


  • #2


    We're not. It's an international agreement that we should sign up to but nobody can make us.

    But it sounds like O Donaghue and the gang have already rolled over. It's clear we no longer control our economy at the macro level. And haven't, effectively since 2008.


  • #2


    fvp4 wrote: »
    Companies and people are leaning San Francisco.



    That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.

    Tax take will change in all countries without any physical change in the location of the companies employees or premises.
    Twenty percent of any profit above that would be reallocated and taxed in the countries where they operate, according to the G7 communiqué.


  • #2


    Genuine question to those worried or principally against this development: did they honestly expect this party to last forever? Ireland effectively pulled itself out of squalor off the back of its low tax rate but to think this wouldn't ever end - especially as the noted issue of corporations dodging tax became more acute - is as naive as the overrating of Ireland's current flaws is myopic. We are capable of decoupling ourselves from this dependency, if we're willing, and it's easy to let faraway hills cause self-prejudice.

    At this stage, we are better off getting in front of this issue now, than fight in the corner that's increasingly proving unpopular with people and any conscientious government. It's obvious which way the wind is blowing.

    I agree this G7 development is only as good as those outside choosing to comply, and corporations may simply pivot to whatever county is willing to prostrate itself for "the jobs". But if Ireland's continued success was always tied to placating FDI, then equally it was all for nothing that it would fall over so easily.


  • #2


    NIMAN wrote: »
    We are the only English speaking country in the EU, surely that has to be some sort of selling point?

    Plus, if all countries agree and actually charge the same CT, why would these companies up sticks and leave if the CT is going to be exactly the same in the country they are moving to? They could avoid moving and set up costs by staying here.

    I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy


  • #2


    I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy

    Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

    But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.


  • #2


    Sure, we could sign up to a harmonised rate, but there is nothing to stop us introducing reliefs and exemptions that bring the effective rate back to current levels. I recall reading that France has a high CT rate, but their effective rate was lower than ours in the end. Something like that, am no expert.


  • #2


    We will actually end up with more revenue, not less.

    As a stable, temperate, advanced country and most importantly the largest remaining anglophone member State of the EU, with a very welcoming and sophisticated system for prospective FDIs, our attractiveness as an EMEA operational location is enhanced.

    Look at the facts. The G7 and EU corporate tax rates will struggle to drop below 20%, let alone 15. The latest chat out of Brexit Britain is that their rates will be significantly increased to help bail them out of the pandemic.

    Even if we end up with an actual rate of 15%, our effective rate will remain lower due to the way we are set up and if all the other tax advantageous locations are being raised, we still have the edge in so many ways.

    I'm very glad Kermit D Frog isn't in charge of our enterprise policy or we'd still be in the dark ages.


  • #2


    Cal4567 wrote: »
    Like here, the expectation is that many of the foreign workers are only here for a few years. OK, some will put down roots and stay here. Poland, Croatia, Slovakia spring immediately to mind. They've come on leaps and bound these last 15 years. Germany, the Netherlands?

    If we all have the same CT, I honestly can't see the huge MNCs upping and leaving Dublin to head to Poland, Slovakie or Croatia.

    Maybe you disagree, but can't see it.

    I would assume locating in Germany or the Netherlands would be expensive too, just like Dublin, so I can't see any benefit of making the move?


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

    But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.
    Most Germans under the age of 50 in the BRD States have excellent English. They would be on a level similar to that of the Swedes or Dutch.


  • #2


    fvp4 wrote: »
    That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.
    I imagine it is profits being deemed to be earned elsewhere.

    It is possible the related companies could leave too.


  • #2


    listermint wrote: »
    Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

    But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.
    Fun fact: As a percentage of population, Ireland has more native English speakers than the UK.


  • #2


    This has been a revelation. I did not fully realise that our own low corporation tax rate did not just apply for business done in Ireland, but was being piggy-backed on by multinationals to deprive the rest of Europe (and elsewhere) of much needed revenues.

    I do not think Ireland struggled for independence just so we could take part in a tax race to the bottom and beggar our neighbours.

    We should sign on to the new G7 agenda with no ifs, ands or buts even if it does cost us. If we could afford to pay 64 billion Euros to bail out the banks, and if we could afford to refuse 13 billion Euros in the Apple appeal we can certainly afford to ship a 2 billion loss on corporation tax if it helps to produce fair and just taxation on multinational enterprises.

    Absolutely.

    We should agree to the g7 decisions right after we are allowed take part of the g7 meetings and have a voice in the discussion.

    Other than that, I find it bizarre that capitalist, free market countries are now whinging about capitalism and the free market.


  • #2


    I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy

    You haven’t travelled much in Germany. Holland is fairly English speaking alright. To live in either long term you need Dutch or German.


  • #2


    seamus wrote: »
    Fun fact: As a percentage of population, Ireland has more native English speakers than the UK.

    Now that you say it!


  • #2


    NIMAN wrote: »
    If we all have the same CT, I honestly can't see the huge MNCs upping and leaving Dublin to head to Poland, Slovakie or Croatia.

    Maybe you disagree, but can't see it.

    I would assume locating in Germany or the Netherlands would be expensive too, just like Dublin, so I can't see any benefit of making the move?

    German cost of living is lower, better infrastructure, Healthcare, miserable shower but so are most Americans


  • #2


    pg633 wrote: »
    I imagine it is profits being deemed to be earned elsewhere.

    It is possible the related companies could leave too.

    Right. I didn’t realise about the profits earned elsewhere.

    I don’t think we can get out of this. The EU will probably take it up.


  • #2


    fvp4 wrote: »

    I don’t think we can get out of this. The EU will probably take it up.

    I have read the possibility of a mandatory minimum tax from the commission.

    The Irish people were promised in the last referendum that this would never happen.

    If they try that route I would like to see the part of any treaty that states the EU has any right to set taxes in any country or a tax base.

    I suspect there is going to be another attempted encroachment by stealth on our sovereignty this time in relation to corporate taxation which the Irish people were told couldn't happen, that we had protocols and assurances. Remember that?


  • #2


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Where would you think these MNC would move to?

    Of course there are cheaper place to hire staff in the EU, but are they the countries where foreign workers would want to live?
    Netherlands? Germany? Portugal? Croatia?

    All have far better weather, 3 have beaches, all have better infrastructure; all have better accommodation situations; fairly easy to get around in each in English too.


  • #2


    fash wrote: »
    Netherlands? Germany? Portugal? Croatia?

    All have far better weather, 3 have beaches, all have better infrastructure; all have better accommodation situations; fairly easy to get around in each in English too.

    Government have been putting all their eggs in the MNC basket for decades now, blowing about how many of the top companies were headquartered here and at the same time neglecting indigenous industries,


  • #2


    fash wrote: »
    Netherlands? Germany? Portugal? Croatia?

    All have far better weather, 3 have beaches, all have better infrastructure; all have better accommodation situations; fairly easy to get around in each in English too.

    But how much do Facebook, Google, Twitter etc care about the weather? Or beaches?

    I appreciate we have iffy infrastructure and issues with getting people housed or places to rent, but it has had no effect on these MNCs locating here so far, why would they suddenly decide that Irelands infrastructure or housing situation is now an issue simply cos they are being taxed slightly more?


  • #2


    NIMAN wrote: »
    But how much do Facebook, Google, Twitter etc care about the weather? Or beaches?

    I appreciate we have iffy infrastructure and issues with getting people housed or places to rent, but it has had no effect on these MNCs locating here so far, why would they suddenly decide that Irelands infrastructure or housing situation is now an issue simply cos they are being taxed slightly more?

    Dell jumped ship for a few million in Polish grants , Fruit of the Loom pulled out for a few cents an hour and took millions worth of equipment paid for by Irish state with them,


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