Is a minimum international level of corporation tax a threat to Ireland?

ancapailldorcha

The G7 group of advanced economies has reached a "historic" deal to make multinational companies pay more tax.

Finance ministers meeting in London agreed to battle tax avoidance by making companies pay more in the countries where they do business.

They also agreed in principle to a global minimum corporate tax rate of 15% to avoid countries undercutting each other.

Tech giants Amazon and Facebook are among those likely to be affected.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics

I think it's fantastic that some progress has been achieved. These companies have, in my opinion, been dodging their fair share of tax for far too long now. The covid-19 pandemic only threatens to worsen inequality so hopefully, raising more money from these corporations will yield long term benefits.

I'm hoping that Ireland signs up to this agreement as well. Ireland's corporation tax rate is not far below the 15% rate at 12.5%. I don't think there's likely to be any damage to Ireland should it sign up as the country is a well established base of services, high quality agriculture and manufacturing in both engineering and pharmaceuticals. I think the country has much more to offer than simply a mere tax haven.

From the article:

The rules on making multinationals pay taxes where they operate - known as "pillar one" of the agreement - would apply to global companies with at least a 10% profit margin.

Twenty percent of any profit above that would be reallocated and taxed in the countries where they operate, according to the G7 communiqué.

In the case of the UK, for example, more tax revenue would be raised from large multinationals and would help pay for public services.

Hopefully, this will offset or help to mitigate some of the financial damage caused by the pandemic and lead to a new source of sustainable income for governments.

Boulevardier

This has been a revelation. I did not fully realise that our own low corporation tax rate did not just apply for business done in Ireland, but was being piggy-backed on by multinationals to deprive the rest of Europe (and elsewhere) of much needed revenues.

I do not think Ireland struggled for independence just so we could take part in a tax race to the bottom and beggar our neighbours.

We should sign on to the new G7 agenda with no ifs, ands or buts even if it does cost us. If we could afford to pay 64 billion Euros to bail out the banks, and if we could afford to refuse 13 billion Euros in the Apple appeal we can certainly afford to ship a 2 billion loss on corporation tax if it helps to produce fair and just taxation on multinational enterprises.

Cal4567

Yes, a good idea and more equitable. Will probably drag on over the next couple of years while the detail gets sorted and be delivered to us close to the next election if that hasn't already happened in the meantime. Here you are, from FFG to SF, deal with this.

Ultimately, we need to present our country as being as attractive for FDI without the stonking tax breaks. Broadband and other infrastructure such as transport and housing are the obvious areas where we still lag behind. Tax harmonisation has been gathering pace for a good few years. When will be ready for it?

Geuze

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think it's fantastic that some progress has been achieved. These companies have, in my opinion, been dodging their fair share of tax for far too long now.

Geuze

What is a "fair share"?

Apple pay 24%-26% CT typically.

If they pay a dividend out of those profits, the dividend is taxed when received by the shareholder?

Any gain from selling shares is subject to CGT, in most countries.

Geuze

2020 effective corporate tax rates:

Source: Seamus Coffey, UCC.

Cal4567

Boulevardier wrote: »

This has been a revelation. I did not fully realise that our own low corporation tax rate did not just apply for business done in Ireland, but was being piggy-backed on by multinationals to deprive the rest of Europe (and elsewhere) of much needed revenues.

I do not think Ireland struggled for independence just so we could take part in a tax race to the bottom and beggar our neighbours.

We should sign on to the new G7 agenda with no ifs, ands or buts even if it does cost us. If we could afford to pay 64 billion Euros to bail out the banks, and if we could afford to refuse 13 billion Euros in the Apple appeal we can certainly afford to ship a 2 billion loss on corporation tax if it helps to produce fair and just taxation on multinational enterprises.

Genuine question. Didn't you? It's just that our media doesn't make much of a song or dance about it. Speaking to family and friends in the UK and US, we are viewed now along with the likes of the Bahamas, Lichtenstein, Jersey etc as one of the world's major tax havens.

Will be interesting to see how our media presents this to Irish eyes and ears.

Gooser14

Yes it is. The Finance Minister has stated on the news tonight that it will cost us about 2 billion Euro pa.

NSAman

It’s fine as long as every country in the world does it, problem is they don’t!

Therefore, what might seem a good thing, will actually lead to other countries benefitting.

While I think the large internet companies will find ways to avoid tax no matter what, my own feeling is this will hit ordinary Irish companies harder than any of the large MNCs it is aimed at.

DmanDmythDledge

NSAman wrote: »

It’s fine as long as every country in the world does it, problem is they don’t!

Therefore, what might seem a good thing, will actually lead to other countries benefitting.

While I think the large internet companies will find ways to avoid tax no matter what, my own feeling is this will hit ordinary Irish companies harder than any of the large MNCs it is aimed at.

I don't think it's going to apply to Irish generated profits so those companies won't be effected.

FreshCoffee

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

I don't think it's going to apply to Irish generated profits so those companies won't be effected.

AIUI there are actually two main changes proposed:


1) A minimum effective corporate tax rate of 15%
2) A mechanism for sharing out some tax revenue in countries where sales are actually made, not where profits are booked.


It's the second one that will hit Ireland hard. We will have to hand over to other countries our corporate tax revenue on profits made by these companies based in Ireland on their sales to other countries.


So for example if Apple (based in Ireland) makes profits on sales to Germany, today Apple pays corporate tax to Ireland on the profits from those sales and those taxes are returned to the Irish Exchequer. In the future we will hand over those corporate taxes to the German Exchequer (at the German corporate tax rate). We will only keep the corporate tax on Apple profits from their sales within Ireland which for these large companies is tiny compared to their overall sales.


This change is estimated to cost Ireland €2.2B a year in lost corporate tax revenue which will have to be made up in the future by additional tax revenue from other sources (i.e. the Irish taxpayer). Of course it also does away with any advantage Ireland has with it's low corporate tax rate for inward investment by large corporations.

Kermit.de.frog

It's bad for Ireland clearly.

Why would they invest here now? May as well stay in the United States.

We have appalling infrastructure, bad weather, mediocre cities that offer very little and a workforce that, sadly, is not as 'educated' as made out (hence why so many employees of these multinationals like Google and Facebook are not Irish).

We have real trouble ahead here because outside of tax we don't have much to offer.

Vestiapx

We are not in the g7,let them do what they want but it's not for us.
The host (brexit( sets the agenda for the meetings and clearly they want us to give up our advantage. The fact that Apple has no Apple stores in Ireland but has a head office here shows that all we are good for is a po box number and a handy way to funnel profits. So any time it's our decision we should leave things as is.

jimmycrackcorm

Boulevardier wrote:

We should sign on to the new G7 agenda with no ifs, ands or buts even if it does cost us. If we could afford to pay 64 billion Euros to bail out the banks, and if we could afford to refuse 13 billion Euros in the Apple appeal we can certainly afford to ship a 2 billion loss on corporation tax if it helps to produce fair and just taxation on multinational enterprises.

We can't afford the 64bn but had no choice.

Our low tax rate isn't the actual problem. Take Apple as an example. It's an American company, our government recognizes that the currently disputed tax isn't due to the Irish arm, but the Americans refuse to change their law to acknowledge that it is ultimately owed by Apple in California.

I don't worry about the minimum tax rate in the scenario chasing for Ireland as there's lots of scope to reduce the amount of money that is taxable.

NSAman

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

I don't think it's going to apply to Irish generated profits so those companies won't be effected.

I could be wrong but Irish companies selling abroad would be affected.

fash

Vestiapx wrote: »

The fact that Apple has no Apple stores in Ireland but has a head office here shows that all we are good for is a po box number and a handy way to funnel profits..

IIRC, that "no Apple store" thing was a weird consequence of the original tax wheeze Apple based on "not being tax resident" which became subject to the EU case.

NIMAN

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's bad for Ireland clearly.

Why would they invest here now? May as well stay in the United States.

We have appalling infrastructure, bad weather, mediocre cities that offer very little and a workforce that, sadly, is not as 'educated' as made out (hence why so many employees of these multinationals like Google and Facebook are not Irish).

We have real trouble ahead here because outside of tax we don't have much to offer.

We are the only English speaking country in the EU, surely that has to be some sort of selling point?

Plus, if all countries agree and actually charge the same CT, why would these companies up sticks and leave if the CT is going to be exactly the same in the country they are moving to? They could avoid moving and set up costs by staying here.

fash

NIMAN wrote: »

We are the only English speaking country in the EU, surely that has to be some sort of selling point?

Plus, if all countries agree and actually charge the same CT, why would these companies up sticks and leave if the CT is going to be exactly the same in the country they are moving to? They could avoid moving and set up costs by staying here.

Why stay in Ireland, where workers need high wages to pay for overpriced housing, poor infrastructure and poor value for money income taxes - if you can get everything you want- including happy workers, great infrastructure and lower wage bills with better weather and better connections to Europe and the world elsewhere?

NIMAN

fash wrote: »

Why stay in Ireland, where workers need high wages to pay for overpriced housing, poor infrastructure and poor value for money income taxes - if you can get everything you want- including happy workers, great infrastructure and lower wage bills with better weather and better connections to Europe and the world elsewhere?

Where would you think these MNC would move to?

Of course there are cheaper place to hire staff in the EU, but are they the countries where foreign workers would want to live?

Arturo Delgado

Why are we being forced to apply this? Are we not able to set our own rate? What about income tax? When will this be applied by the EU?

Cal4567

NIMAN wrote: »

We are the only English speaking country in the EU, surely that has to be some sort of selling point?

Plus, if all countries agree and actually charge the same CT, why would these companies up sticks and leave if the CT is going to be exactly the same in the country they are moving to? They could avoid moving and set up costs by staying here.

Actually, Malta is as well but I get your argument. I've worked with colleagues and business all across Europe. About 95% of the people I have dealt with all spoke perfect English. They are for the most part bilingual. We, largely, are not. Being 'English speaking' cannot be our unique selling point. If we are on a level laying field tax wise, we need to have something else to offer, or be at least comparable to other countries.

https://www.businesspost.ie/infrastructure/broadband-rollout-target-slashed-as-contractor-admits-delays-308e56e1

More missed targets, and as far Broadband, we should have been enabled across the country by the time of the financial crash, not as it looks like, 15 years or more beyond it.

ancapailldorcha

Arturo Delgado wrote: »

Why are we being forced to apply this? Are we not able to set our own rate? What about income tax? When will this be applied by the EU?

We're not. It's an international agreement that we should sign up to but nobody can make us.

NIMAN

Cal4567 wrote: »

Actually, Malta is as well but I get your argument. I've worked with colleagues and business all across Europe. About 95% of the people I have dealt with all spoke perfect English. They are for the most part bilingual. We, largely, are not. Being 'English speaking' cannot be our unique selling point. If we are on a level laying field tax wise, we need to have something else to offer, or be at least comparable to other countries.

https://www.businesspost.ie/infrastructure/broadband-rollout-target-slashed-as-contractor-admits-delays-308e56e1

More missed targets, and as far Broadband, we should have been enabled across the country by the time of the financial crash, not as it looks like, 15 years or more beyond it.

Broadband obviously isn't an issue at present for MNCs, so thats a red herring.
If they had to deal with crap broadband, then a low CT wouldn't entice them all to come here.

So you think its possible they will all up sticks to Malta?

You say if its a level playing field wrt CT, then we need to have something else to offer. That rule applies to every other country too, they have to offer something special that would make it beneficial for these MNCs to uproot all their offices, staff, etc to move to another country and go through set up again.

Cal4567

NIMAN wrote: »

Where would you think these MNC would move to?

Of course there are cheaper place to hire staff in the EU, but are they the countries where foreign workers would want to live?

Like here, the expectation is that many of the foreign workers are only here for a few years. OK, some will put down roots and stay here. Poland, Croatia, Slovakia spring immediately to mind. They've come on leaps and bound these last 15 years. Germany, the Netherlands?

Cal4567

NIMAN wrote: »

Broadband obviously isn't an issue at present for MNCs, so thats a red herring.
If they had to deal with crap broadband, then a low CT wouldn't entice them all to come here.

So you think its possible they will all up sticks to Malta?

You say if its a level playing field wrt CT, then we need to have something else to offer. That rule applies to every other country too, they have to offer something special that would make it beneficial for these MNCs to uproot all their offices, staff, etc to move to another country and go through set up again.

Don't forget we are moving to a period when more people will want/need to WFH. Dublin is just too expensive now to live in unless you already have property there.

After visiting most of Europe, we have very poor infrastructure. Transport links being the obvious one. Affordable childcare. The health service. We do not compare well with other countries. The 2040 development plan reflects that.

seamus

Most of these huge tech multinationals have huge bases in San Francisco, with property prices and wages off the charts, massive social issues and poor infrastructure. Dublin is tame in comparison.

If they were just here for the tax breaks, they wouldn't be employing tens of thousands of people. They could have a small office with a few hundred, at most. They don't. The self-deprecation about Ireland actually being a sh1te place where they locate grudgingly, is demonstrably false.

Mickey Noonan to his credit, spotted this coming a mile off so this isn't a shock to our economy. Most of the loopholes were closed off last year.

We can't continue to play the "I'm alright Jack" card in terms of corporate tax, while multinationals pay effectively zero tax across the planet. Sooner or later countries which provide effective tax havens, will be subject to penalties from the big trading blocks, and we need to be on the right side of that fence.

2.2bn isn't a huge loss in context of our total budget. There are places we can make it up.

listermint

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's bad for Ireland clearly.

Why would they invest here now? May as well stay in the United States.

We have appalling infrastructure, bad weather, mediocre cities that offer very little and a workforce that, sadly, is not as 'educated' as made out (hence why so many employees of these multinationals like Google and Facebook are not Irish).

We have real trouble ahead here because outside of tax we don't have much to offer.

No offence meant but you have been peddling this nonsense for years in various threads. It's rubbish, it's waffle opinion based on nothing more than your distaste for the country you live in.

We do have an educated workforce.
We do have an English speaking workforce
We have consistently made it into top places to live in the world based on various metrics.
We consistently measure as a productive place based on workforce.
Ireland is actually a good place to do business and we have skills sets that support international business making connections.


You have no basis in making your claims and you have to be called out on it . It's not on.

It's going to affect Ireland negatively, by how much will only become apparent over the next decade or so.

Company I am involved with are here only for tax reasons, nothing else. Publicly they profess otherwise, here for the educated employees, English speaking, ease of business etc. With a deep belief in social issues, charity etc. This is just part of the game that all mnc's play.

I don't think these changes will be the death knell of Ireland but we do have some significant challenges ahead.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's going to affect Ireland negatively, by how much will only become apparent over the next decade or so.

Company I am involved with are here only for tax reasons, nothing else. Publicly they profess otherwise, here for the educated employees, English speaking, ease of business etc. With a deep belief in social issues, charity etc. This is just part of the game that all mnc's play.

I don't think these changes will be the death knell of Ireland but we do have some significant challenges ahead.

How many staff do they employ ?

And how are you so confident in that statement. Specifics please.

Vestiapx

fash wrote: »

IIRC, that "no Apple store" thing was a weird consequence of the original tax wheeze Apple based on "not being tax resident" which became subject to the EU case.

I just think its very strange that we has apple support employees and tax and legal employees and no apple store.

do we mot "deserve" one. It was the reason i switched to android after 10 years of being in the apple infrastructure.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

How many staff do they employ ?

And how are you so confident in that statement. Specifics please.

A few hundred. I'm not giving specifics on the company. It's just a fact that they came for tax reasons.

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A few hundred. I'm not giving specifics on the company. It's just a fact that they came for tax reasons.

The specifics I'm asking for are as to how you are aware tax reasons.

Companies don't throw up hundreds of jobs and spent millions open offices in Ireland for mere tax efficiency.

There are various other reasons. I suspect you may not be in the loop that you think you are.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

The specifics I'm asking for are as to how you are aware tax reasons.

Companies don't throw up hundreds of jobs and spent millions open offices in Ireland for mere tax efficiency.

There are various other reasons. I suspect you may not be in the loop that you think you are.

I'm not giving you specifics, jobs are included as well obviously but the ultimate first reason in locating to Ireland was tax. You then develop a business off this using other tax breaks, R & D grants etc.

This isn't in the least bit controversial. Here's something else that is going to blow your mind. MNC's only care about profit and shareholders. They don't care about anything else.

Kermit.de.frog

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're not. It's an international agreement that we should sign up to but nobody can make us.

Spoken with the confidence of someone neither affected and probably not in Ireland.

Fake moral righteousness is no substitute for poverty and unemployment in the real world, not the one of make believe where everyone plays fair.

The country should reject the deal, simple as that.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Spoken with the confidence of someone neither affected and probably not in Ireland.

Fake moral righteousness is no substitute for poverty and unemployment in the real world, not the one of make believe where everyone plays fair.

The country should reject the deal, simple as that.

So Ireland and its people have absolutely nothing more to offer than a low corporation tax rate?

moon2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm not giving you specifics, jobs are included as well obviously but the ultimate first reason in locating to Ireland was tax. You then develop a business off this using other tax breaks, R & D grants etc.

Are you on the board for this company? I'm just curious how you can speak so confidently about the reasons for setting up in Ireland.

Do you know which other countries were considered and why they were ultimately not chosen?

coolshannagh28

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

So Ireland and its people have absolutely nothing more to offer than a low corporation tax rate?

Ireland Inc is on the wrong side of this argument , however if we could pull in 15% of the corporation tax available to us it would be a gamechanger .

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Most of these huge tech multinationals have huge bases in San Francisco, with property prices and wages off the charts, massive social issues and poor infrastructure. Dublin is tame in comparison.

Companies and people are leaning San Francisco.

2.2bn isn't a huge loss in context of our total budget. There are places we can make it up.

That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.

Arturo Delgado

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

We're not. It's an international agreement that we should sign up to but nobody can make us.

But it sounds like O Donaghue and the gang have already rolled over. It's clear we no longer control our economy at the macro level. And haven't, effectively since 2008.

moon2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Companies and people are leaning San Francisco.



That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.

Tax take will change in all countries without any physical change in the location of the companies employees or premises.

Twenty percent of any profit above that would be reallocated and taxed in the countries where they operate, according to the G7 communiqué.

pixelburp

Genuine question to those worried or principally against this development: did they honestly expect this party to last forever? Ireland effectively pulled itself out of squalor off the back of its low tax rate but to think this wouldn't ever end - especially as the noted issue of corporations dodging tax became more acute - is as naive as the overrating of Ireland's current flaws is myopic. We are capable of decoupling ourselves from this dependency, if we're willing, and it's easy to let faraway hills cause self-prejudice.

At this stage, we are better off getting in front of this issue now, than fight in the corner that's increasingly proving unpopular with people and any conscientious government. It's obvious which way the wind is blowing.

I agree this G7 development is only as good as those outside choosing to comply, and corporations may simply pivot to whatever county is willing to prostrate itself for "the jobs". But if Ireland's continued success was always tied to placating FDI, then equally it was all for nothing that it would fall over so easily.

RandomViewer

NIMAN wrote: »

We are the only English speaking country in the EU, surely that has to be some sort of selling point?

Plus, if all countries agree and actually charge the same CT, why would these companies up sticks and leave if the CT is going to be exactly the same in the country they are moving to? They could avoid moving and set up costs by staying here.

I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy

listermint

RandomViewer wrote: »

I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy

Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.

Spanish Eyes

Sure, we could sign up to a harmonised rate, but there is nothing to stop us introducing reliefs and exemptions that bring the effective rate back to current levels. I recall reading that France has a high CT rate, but their effective rate was lower than ours in the end. Something like that, am no expert.

Larbre34

We will actually end up with more revenue, not less.

As a stable, temperate, advanced country and most importantly the largest remaining anglophone member State of the EU, with a very welcoming and sophisticated system for prospective FDIs, our attractiveness as an EMEA operational location is enhanced.

Look at the facts. The G7 and EU corporate tax rates will struggle to drop below 20%, let alone 15. The latest chat out of Brexit Britain is that their rates will be significantly increased to help bail them out of the pandemic.

Even if we end up with an actual rate of 15%, our effective rate will remain lower due to the way we are set up and if all the other tax advantageous locations are being raised, we still have the edge in so many ways.

I'm very glad Kermit D Frog isn't in charge of our enterprise policy or we'd still be in the dark ages.

NIMAN

Cal4567 wrote: »

Like here, the expectation is that many of the foreign workers are only here for a few years. OK, some will put down roots and stay here. Poland, Croatia, Slovakia spring immediately to mind. They've come on leaps and bound these last 15 years. Germany, the Netherlands?

If we all have the same CT, I honestly can't see the huge MNCs upping and leaving Dublin to head to Poland, Slovakie or Croatia.

Maybe you disagree, but can't see it.

I would assume locating in Germany or the Netherlands would be expensive too, just like Dublin, so I can't see any benefit of making the move?

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.

Most Germans under the age of 50 in the BRD States have excellent English. They would be on a level similar to that of the Swedes or Dutch.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That 2.2bn seems to indicate companies leaving Ireland. Otherwise the 15% would bring in more tax.

I imagine it is profits being deemed to be earned elsewhere.

It is possible the related companies could leave too.

seamus

listermint wrote: »

Dutch maybe. But Germany you clearly havent met many . Lots of Germans don't speak English or English well.

But the point still stands English first language is a huge advantage even if you think it's not.

Fun fact: As a percentage of population, Ireland has more native English speakers than the UK.

Boulevardier

Boulevardier wrote: »

This has been a revelation. I did not fully realise that our own low corporation tax rate did not just apply for business done in Ireland, but was being piggy-backed on by multinationals to deprive the rest of Europe (and elsewhere) of much needed revenues.

I do not think Ireland struggled for independence just so we could take part in a tax race to the bottom and beggar our neighbours.

We should sign on to the new G7 agenda with no ifs, ands or buts even if it does cost us. If we could afford to pay 64 billion Euros to bail out the banks, and if we could afford to refuse 13 billion Euros in the Apple appeal we can certainly afford to ship a 2 billion loss on corporation tax if it helps to produce fair and just taxation on multinational enterprises.

Absolutely.

We should agree to the g7 decisions right after we are allowed take part of the g7 meetings and have a voice in the discussion.

Other than that, I find it bizarre that capitalist, free market countries are now whinging about capitalism and the free market.

RandomViewer

RandomViewer wrote: »

I've yet to meet a Dutch or German person who couldn't speak English, claiming we are the only English speaking EU country is fantasy

You haven’t travelled much in Germany. Holland is fairly English speaking alright. To live in either long term you need Dutch or German.