Dearth of young farmers

Bog Man 1

JohnChadwick wrote: »

Just find it mildly depressing that in my area there is a real dearth of young farmers. Not only young farmers, but young farmers that would be useful to link up with and bounce ideas off.

I mean farmers in their 20s/30s who are decision makers on their land, have power to make changes and are eager to suss out opportunities. Not like the ones that sort of conform and farm away according to the expectations of their parents, for example.

Actually over the last decade I can't think if I had even one stimulating conversation with a young farmer who was involved in running a beef, sheep or dairy farm.

Something I have been reflecting on.

I know a few young Part time farmers that would have great technical knowledge in both beef and tillage . A good few of the ones I know have very good jobs and would have good salaries and are very well qualified in full time jobs . I met a young sheep farmer in his early thirties and he works with Dialysis machines and I had a very interesting conversation with him about dialysis .
If prospective farmers stay at home as a cheap source of labour for the farm that is what they will always be . My father was 35 when he went farming after seven years studying and practicing law and seven years in the Army .
This New Zealand idea that you start running your own enterprise in your twenties and retire half disabled in your late forties is a load of nonsense .
With the later age that people are starting families their parents will be in their sixties when their children are finished college .

Base price

DEFRA are proposing to pay older farmers in England a lump sum of up to a £100,000 to quit claiming BPS and stop actively farming in order to free up land for young farmers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149744

Bass Reeves

Base price wrote: »

DEFRA are proposing to pay older farmers in England a lump sum of up to a £100,000 to quit claiming BPS and stop actively farming in order to free up land for young farmers.
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149744

50-100k sterling, average BPS payment in the UK is 21k. Farms are bigger taxation will be more important than the lump sum. I say theo EU is only part of the scheme. If owner has stock vale of 1-200k and is allowed to sell draw another 1-200k tax free and maybe hand a farm over to a designated successor then it just another redundancy scheme.

Different situations no scheme is going to give 50k to a farmer with 5-6k in payments

Base price

Bass Reeves wrote: »

50-100k sterling, average BPS payment in the UK is 21k. Farms are bigger taxation will be more important than the lump sum. I say theo EU is only part of the scheme. If owner has stock vale of 1-200k and is allowed to sell draw another 1-200k tax free and maybe hand a farm over to a designated successor then it just another redundancy scheme.

Different situations no scheme is going to give 50k to a farmer with 5-6k in payments

I would classify it a early retirement scheme. I suppose the devil will be in the detail since they (UK) are no longer curtailed by EU rules/regs. It will be interesting to see if it's implemented and how it works.
Edit - I think DEFRA/Government will dig deep into their pockets to support it as they want to been seen to support domestic food production in the aftermath of Brexit.

jntsnk

I won’t dare let my lad go farming .He’s 18 at the moment. Have 250 acres , He has interest but he needs to get out and see the world, experience life and not be stuck on a farm meeting no one his age. The land will always be there if he’s interested later in his life.

Biscuitus

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

I’ve done my very best to put my child off farming. There’s a waaaay better quality of life to be had working 35hr week with heaps of payed hols with every weekend off, not to mention the juicy pension at the end. It’s a no brainer. I can’t comprehend why anyone would put their child into such a life of drudgery.

Ouch

_Brian

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

I’ve done my very best to put my child off farming. There’s a waaaay better quality of life to be had working 35hr week with heaps of payed hols with every weekend off, not to mention the juicy pension at the end. It’s a no brainer. I can’t comprehend why anyone would put their child into such a life of drudgery.

Yea, but entering a job for the pension at the end amd because of the hours is a massive gamble, end up on a job you hate amd you will soon understand the meaning of drudgery- every single day for 40years.

Dinzee Conlee

_Brian wrote: »

Yea, but entering a job for the pension at the end amd because of the hours is a massive gamble, end up on a job you hate amd you will soon understand the meaning of drudgery- every single day for 40years.

100% agree Brian...

Thing with farming is - everyone will be falling over themselves to tell you its drudgery at every opportunity, so you go in with your eyes more open

Rowley Birkin QC

Interesting thread. I'm 36, grew up on a 80~acre dairy farm of good quality. Had no real interest in farming when I was younger and went off to college to study something else. I'm established in a career in technology now which means I can work from anywhere. Dad got out of cows a few years back and the place is leased out. Lads I grew up with have taken over family dairy farms full time lately and have gone through rounds of modernisation and expansion which I've been really interested in following progress on.

Funny thing is that I have a real draw back home at the moment and I'd love to do something part time with the place. I worked from home last year and had time for the first time ever to do a few jobs around the yard at lunchtime and in the evenings (it's let out to a cousin of mine so he's glad of the hand & there's always things that need attention) and it got me thinking about getting out of Dublin, moving back to the farmhouse full time and doing something (part time) with the land.

There's definitely a nostalgia element kicking in as I'm the only son and the thought of the place being sold off rattles me in all the wrong ways but also from a job satisfaction perspective I enjoy doing something where there's a visible / tangible result that working in tech usually doesn't give. I've briefly looked into doing the green cert on a part time basis but that's as far as it's gone.

Another option I've thought about is getting involved in Agri-Tech as I see it as huge growth area in the next few years. Either way, there's a draw back to the land hitting me fairly hard at the moment!

Anyway, rambling a bit here but wondering if anyone else has found themselves in the same spot?

mr.stonewall

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'm 36, grew up on a 80~acre dairy farm of good quality. Had no real interest in farming when I was younger and went off to college to study something else. I'm established in a career in technology now which means I can work from anywhere. Dad got out of cows a few years back and the place is leased out. Lads I grew up with have taken over family dairy farms full time lately and have gone through rounds of modernisation and expansion which I've been really interested in following progress on.

Funny thing is that I have a real draw back home at the moment and I'd love to do something part time with the place. I worked from home last year and had time for the first time ever to do a few jobs around the yard at lunchtime and in the evenings (it's let out to a cousin of mine so he's glad of the hand & there's always things that need attention) and it got me thinking about getting out of Dublin, moving back to the farmhouse full time and doing something (part time) with the land.

There's definitely a nostalgia element kicking in as I'm the only son and the thought of the place being sold off rattles me in all the wrong ways but also from a job satisfaction perspective I enjoy doing something where there's a visible / tangible result that working in tech usually doesn't give. I've briefly looked into doing the green cert on a part time basis but that's as far as it's gone.

Another option I've thought about is getting involved in Agri-Tech as I see it as huge growth area in the next few years. Either way, there's a draw back to the land hitting me fairly hard at the moment!

Anyway, rambling a bit here but wondering if anyone else has found themselves in the same spot?

Same age as yourself. Took over the farm 5 years ago,. Was always involved and working on it from a young age. Part time farming myself and teaching aswell and a young family. It gives a great quality of life. Have been working away over the past few years at streamlining it and taking the man hours out of it. There is a lot of enjoyment to be got out of improving the place as other generations did. When part time you do work more efficiently.

Its alot more than just the financial side to to farming. It's the social aspect within your community, custodianship to the land, and often it's a wellbeing side. Often would look at the Fitbit on the arm in the springtime at the breaktime and could be over the 10k steps. We as farmers are blessed to have a workplace that provides much more than money.
I often say the kids in school when picking subjects or career paths. Do whatever you enjoy, and it will never be hardwork.

Best bits of advice for young farmers I would give,
1. Travel
2. Work outside of the ag industry for a few years
3. Have a vision of what you want to achieve
4. The farm must work around you

I would like to see something done to encourage generational renewal, as we are losing the positive energy in young farmers. Often the best changes are done in the 1st 10 years. Encouraging the hand over of the reins to farmers in their late 20's or early thirties.

Young farmers want to get going, but it's often the older farmers that is holding it back. Maybe it needs to be where a farmer is getting the pension and BPS, he has to engage with a succession plan annually to keep both. This will get them to sit down and have the difficult conversations

Dinzee Conlee

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'm 36, grew up on a 80~acre dairy farm of good quality. Had no real interest in farming when I was younger and went off to college to study something else. I'm established in a career in technology now which means I can work from anywhere. Dad got out of cows a few years back and the place is leased out. Lads I grew up with have taken over family dairy farms full time lately and have gone through rounds of modernisation and expansion which I've been really interested in following progress on.

Funny thing is that I have a real draw back home at the moment and I'd love to do something part time with the place. I worked from home last year and had time for the first time ever to do a few jobs around the yard at lunchtime and in the evenings (it's let out to a cousin of mine so he's glad of the hand & there's always things that need attention) and it got me thinking about getting out of Dublin, moving back to the farmhouse full time and doing something (part time) with the land.

There's definitely a nostalgia element kicking in as I'm the only son and the thought of the place being sold off rattles me in all the wrong ways but also from a job satisfaction perspective I enjoy doing something where there's a visible / tangible result that working in tech usually doesn't give. I've briefly looked into doing the green cert on a part time basis but that's as far as it's gone.

Another option I've thought about is getting involved in Agri-Tech as I see it as huge growth area in the next few years. Either way, there's a draw back to the land hitting me fairly hard at the moment!

Anyway, rambling a bit here but wondering if anyone else has found themselves in the same spot?

Come home from abroad about 13 years to build a house a home. No real plans to go farming at the time... It was more a house at home was in the plan, but I helped out as there was animals here and things needed doing.
The helping out made me realise how much I enjoyed it, and how I missed it. So the helping out kinda turned into me farming the place. I find it a great offset to the full time IT job. And it’s great for the kids...

Now, I let some of the farm out a few years as young family and time poor.
But still do a small bit of farming with a few fields around the house...

So, maybe not exactly the same as you, but similar...

_Brian

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Come home from abroad about 13 years to build a house a home. No real plans to go farming at the time... It was more a house at home was in the plan, but I helped out as there was animals here and things needed doing.
The helping out made me realise how much I enjoyed it, and how I missed it. So the helping out kinda turned into me farming the place. I find it a great offset to the full time IT job. And it’s great for the kids...

Now, I let some of the farm out a few years as young family and time poor.
But still do a small bit of farming with a few fields around the house...

So, maybe not exactly the same as you, but similar...

Same here really.
Only we have a strict rule of no wages into the farm, it has to be a stand alone entity, it never draws a cent away from money that goes to the house and lifestyle we want as a family. We draw money out at holiday time but in recent years that’s getting hard done.

I know others view it differently, I have a friend that buys the best of everything for his small holding, his view is to have everything perfect so he can have a handy time when he retires.

carrollsno1

whelan2 wrote: »

Most agricultural courses are over subscribed. Where do they go when they qualify?

Done the two years in Kildalton myself about 110 in the first year this was around the time of the white gold rush, im doing a trade a few years out of it now and a lot of lass followed the same route moreso lads that were planning on heading down the dairy route back then. Australia and New Zealand took a handful aswell.

kevthegaff

Have a friend where the father retired at 55, handed over the reins to the sons who were in their early 20s. He went off setting up his own non farming business, which he excelled at. Two sons are serious operators and I can see them doing similar. What you learn from farming are great tools in many other businesses. Big believer in handing over the reins early

wrangler

timple23 wrote: »

Increased regulation, increased costs, reduced returns. Working harder to stand still.

I'll never forget reading an article during the fodder crisis, something like 10 options to consider, first 9 options were buying feed of some sort, very last option was to sell stock.

I'm sick of listening to people ramming the ideas of growing 20tonne of grass per year and stocking over 3lu.

Not much printspace given to people who want to reduce inputs.

There are very few publications that are not trying to sell you something.

When they take their own advice, it doesn't seem to work well. Greenfields springs to mind.

Selling stock in a fodder crisis should be the last resort, you'd just be throwing them away. Markets would be depressed. buyers would be scarce.
Same as Tullamore Farm, greenfields was research. Now we know it can't be done.
Plenty of farmers are doing well on intensive farming,
Supplementing with concentrate is a very good option if farmers are stupid enough not to make enough silage for their stock . No one is advising farmers to overstock.

Dickie10

i found a nice balance secondary teaching 15 miles from me and farming, works well. dont calve any cows though

wrangler

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'm 36, grew up on a 80~acre dairy farm of good quality. Had no real interest in farming when I was younger and went off to college to study something else. I'm established in a career in technology now which means I can work from anywhere. Dad got out of cows a few years back and the place is leased out. Lads I grew up with have taken over family dairy farms full time lately and have gone through rounds of modernisation and expansion which I've been really interested in following progress on.

Funny thing is that I have a real draw back home at the moment and I'd love to do something part time with the place. I worked from home last year and had time for the first time ever to do a few jobs around the yard at lunchtime and in the evenings (it's let out to a cousin of mine so he's glad of the hand & there's always things that need attention) and it got me thinking about getting out of Dublin, moving back to the farmhouse full time and doing something (part time) with the land.

There's definitely a nostalgia element kicking in as I'm the only son and the thought of the place being sold off rattles me in all the wrong ways but also from a job satisfaction perspective I enjoy doing something where there's a visible / tangible result that working in tech usually doesn't give. I've briefly looked into doing the green cert on a part time basis but that's as far as it's gone.

Another option I've thought about is getting involved in Agri-Tech as I see it as huge growth area in the next few years. Either way, there's a draw back to the land hitting me fairly hard at the moment!

Anyway, rambling a bit here but wondering if anyone else has found themselves in the same spot?

Once a place is leased it's difficult to go back, Leasing wasn't the plan here but that's the way it is. The sad fact is that you'll leave a person worse off if you give them a drystock farm...... unless of course they're a ne'er do well and have no job.

Charolois 19

_Brian wrote: »

Yea, but entering a job for the pension at the end amd because of the hours is a massive gamble, end up on a job you hate amd you will soon understand the meaning of drudgery- every single day for 40years.

Totally agree, grew up been guided will we say into a good Job, my parents would of done anything for me, college ect, but id no interest, I wasn't wild school smart, I wanted to be a diesel fitter but was persuaded to do a business course, currently in a job I despise but it pays well enough, I came to farming from a non farming background, and later in life, at the time near 30, ive done alright for myself and have a plan made out to hopefully be in a position to make a decent living off the farm and rental propertys in the next 10 year, which will leave me mid 40s, and get away from a job I hate, I struggled a bit I suppose to get fellas to give me the chance at my age to do contracting work and learn the craic, I've a lock of store heffiers currently started at sheep moved to sucklers, but of all I learned id give my child the chance to do as they please, because I know what it like to not be happy at what you do for a living, and of all those few hours a day with my girls mean everything, feeding or just going to look at them, im probably in my break even year and hopefully a profit of some sort next year on, suppose what im getting at is if it makes you happy aim for it and don't give up, I started with a few ewes and looked at cattle men jealously thinking id never get to buying animals at that price, but I got there, id not like to see another person go through a life if they listened to ney sayers or went for a job because of a pension plan you might never live to see, and I know how lucky I was to get away from it to a degree at this point

Gawddawggonnit

_Brian wrote: »

Yea, but entering a job for the pension at the end amd because of the hours is a massive gamble, end up on a job you hate amd you will soon understand the meaning of drudgery- every single day for 40years.

I never even suggested that the pension in any job should be a major consideration... but it’s a nice little cherry on top, that’s all.
When I say Job, I mean anything outside of farming.
Farming is a pretty competitive industry with small margins and being a good physical worker is NOT the main attribute that’s needed. Farmers need to be businessmen more than prop forwards.
Margins will continue to fall and farms will need to keep expanding, Fact.

The old canard of doing something you love and you’ll never work a day in your life, is the biggest bullcrap story ever told.

https://twitter.com/ridgebackjack01/status/1343516335393959936?s=21


I’d expect for any child to be educated to the max, travel and work as much as possible abroad, and be the very best they can be in whatever jobs they get. If, after doing that, they think that they can bring new dynamism to the farm after getting that experience, then by all means go farming...but choosing farming for the dream of bucolic bliss, NO!

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Firstly there’s no non-contributory pension in France, and the contributory pension pays a massive €1100/mth. Secondly the ‘young’ farmer having priority in land sales only serves to fcuk up pretty much every sale.
There’s heaps of young blood in the tillage sector and they’re leading the charge into organic. Far less young blood in the beef sector, and almost none in dairy.
You couldn’t give away dairy farms.

Poultry, veal and pork fares very well also because you’ve a better chance of more industrial hours. In fairness to them they’ve invested heavily. They’re having a hard time now though.

I’m retirement age and I’ve absolutely no intention of even taking a step back. I do have days when I think about why I’m doing this to myself, especially when I’ve no successor...and when talking to siblings and peers that are retired.
I’ve done my very best to put my child off farming. There’s a waaaay better quality of life to be had working 35hr week with heaps of payed hols with every weekend off, not to mention the juicy pension at the end. It’s a no brainer. I can’t comprehend why anyone would put their child into such a life of drudgery.

Can I ask why you don't just sell it all up and retire then?
From as much as I can understand you never seem to be happy with all the work involved and how it always falls back on yourself despite the labour force you have?
Why did you bother to make the move across to France in the first place

When I was 11 my parents sold up a 40 ac dairy farm and bought a 120 ac one 30 miles away so they could provide a better future for us and give me the option of farming full time if I wished

That was only 30 miles of a move and it was tough enough on all of us

I'm home since 2013 and was working for other guys for few years since till we were able to create another wage for me at home

My 2 sisters and fiance have 9 to 5s, yep great perks to it but its no picnic either
You start work at 9 but they're up at 7 at the latest and not home till 6 or 6.30 when in the office

jaymla627

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Can I ask why you don't just sell it all up and retire then?
From as much as I can understand you never seem to be happy with all the work involved and how it always falls back on yourself despite the labour force you have?
Why did you bother to make the move across to France in the first place

When I was 11 my parents sold up a 40 ac dairy farm and bought a 120 ac one 30 miles away so they could provide a better future for us and give me the option of farming full time if I wished

That was only 30 miles of a move and it was tough enough on all of us

I'm home since 2013 and was working for other guys for few years since till we were able to create another wage for me at home

My 2 sisters and fiance have 9 to 5s, yep great perks to it but its no picnic either
You start work at 9 but they're up at 7 at the latest and not home till 6 or 6.30 when in the office

your in a honeymoon period at the minute in having help, down the line when youll be mostly flying solo combined with money going out to help fund retirement, your viewpoint will change, the gap between the older generation retiring and the next-generations son/daughter stepping up to help take the slack up is a huge factor

GrasstoMilk

jaymla627 wrote: »

your in a honeymoon period at the minute in having help, down the line when youll be mostly flying solo combined with money going out to help fund retirement, your viewpoint will change, the gap between the older generation retiring and the next-generations son/daughter stepping up to help take the slack up is a huge factor

My father is heading for 80, he does a fair bit but I do all the calving, night checks and every bit of calf rearing aswell as all milking in a spring on my own
I know well what's involved

whelan2

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

My father is heading for 80, he does a fair bit but I do all the calving, night checks and every bit of calf rearing aswell as all milking in a spring on my own
I know well what's involved

Both my parents are laid up this last while. My dad would bring the cows in, go to vets, drop or collect kids. I'm lucky young lad is here to help me. Your health is your wealth. If anything happens to you is there a plan there? My dad is in his 70s. I'm also going to tend to their needs as they can't drive atm.

GrasstoMilk

whelan2 wrote: »

Both my parents are laid up this last while. My dad would bring the cows in, go to vets, drop or collect kids. I'm lucky young lad is here to help me. Your health is your wealth. If anything happens to you is there a plan there? My dad is in his 70s. I'm also going to tend to their needs as they can't drive atm.

Have couple relief milkers and 2 brother in laws that give a dig out when needed if they haven't anything going on themselves but nothing outside of that
I dunno do most ppl have anyone that can step in if something happens?

We've fairly well stream lined the whole thing the last couple of years, outside of the spring you could run the place here with a relief milker and a contractor if you had to
We still do more machinery work than most dairy farmers would but heifers are contract reared so its apples and oranges really

I don't mind working hard, it's ingrained in me and my family, I can see the fruits of it the last couple of years and no real appetite to slow down yet
If I'm not at something or some project I feel lazy, but I'd say that's the same for most farmers

Bass Reeves

I agree with Dawg about the bull**** line that find a job you enjoy and you will never work a day to in your life. My mother had a great line when poverty comes in the door love flies out the window.

A good amount of lads that come from a farming background often get involved in the sector from tractor or machinery work. At 17 years of age they end up doing a bit of tedding or mowing and start earning money. Often the parent never lets them know the costs involved. They may even be earning before that as they may be relief milking or giving a hand to a local farmer at busy times of the year. When there friends are lucky to be earning 50-150/ week for the holidays they are on double that.

They think this is the life. When I left school and started my training there was a lads from my class stayed at home. He used to do odd bits of tractor work as well as timber and turf. He would always have no way in his pocket and be blowing about the 150-200/ week he was earning when I was away from home paying digs out of a 50 pounds a week wage. 10 years later I was on over 200/ week and he was on much the same within another 10 I was earning over double his money.

A distance from me is a dairy farmer he has 150 acres milks 100 cows. He has one son. The son is a qualified nurse he abroad and is coming home in 6-12months Father who is over 60 wants him to go milking. The son wants the farm changed over to drystock. He has done a bit of research and has calculated the farm needs 100-150k in investment to stay milk and reduce workload. He know can come home go nursing earn 40k/ year and that will rise as his career develops.

Father has this idea if they rent a bit of ground and milk 150 cows on the home platform it's the way to go. Son is having none of it.

Too many lads end up on tractors, then go to ag college and by the time they are 25-30 only see then that there is no future farming for them and end up on tractors or hanging around marts for the rest of there life.

Dunedin

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Too many lads end up on tractors, then go to ag college and by the time they are 25-30 only see then that there is no future farming for them and end up on tractors or hanging around marts for the rest of there life.

Might have been the case in olden years but definitely less and less of that around me nowadays.

whelan2

Very few young farmers ever in our local mart

Hard Knocks

whelan2 wrote: »

Very few young farmers ever in our local mart

Do they get someone to sell for them or just pay someone to take & sell for them?
See a bit of that here as they’re too busy and leave orders to sell for best price

epfff

Dunedin wrote: »

Might have been the case in olden years but definitely less and less of that around me nowadays.

2 a penny around here.
Money doesn't seem to motivate them and they have no interest in the economics of farming or equipment. Majority are very personable and full of advice and personal experience without having much of it (fake it until you make it stuff). They pick and chose the jobs/only drive good gear with no iterest in manual labour.

I think it's a reflection of the modern Irish workforce. These would be the first generation around here that wouldn't have spent summers footing turf in local bog and doing dirty work to get money.
I consider this generation above jobs and fear there parents wealth will not get them to the finish line but maybe that's me being pessimistic

Bass Reeves

Dunedin wrote: »

Might have been the case in olden years but definitely less and less of that around me nowadays.

It more a west of Ireland thing now. It still prevalent as far as I know amount going to ag college is higher than 10 years ago

Castlekeeper

jntsnk wrote: »

I won’t dare let my lad go farming .He’s 18 at the moment. Have 250 acres , He has interest but he needs to get out and see the world, experience life and not be stuck on a farm meeting no one his age. The land will always be there if he’s interested later in his life.

I see where your coming from, having been that kid in some ways, but I don't see having a life as a young person and farming being mutually exclusive. Not everyone goes to uni, and uni isn't super for everyone who goes there, if it suits, grand.
Some go straight to work in adult environments, some do apprenticeships, some fall between the cracks. These can all be done while maintaining an involvement with the farm too.

Theres nothing to stop a young farmer enjoying a good social life at home and travelling the world in the quiet season except themselves and the mentality of people around them.

As a parent now I aim to help make the farm here as interesting and attractive a place for our own and other young people to frequent. Plenty challenges, some hard rewarding work, and lots fun and freedom.
It doesn't have to be isolation and drudgery.

Mooooo

whelan2 wrote: »

Very few young farmers ever in our local mart

Mart being online this year is the first time I've seem my own calves being sold, haulier takes and sells em for me. Was in the mart once I'd say

jaymla627

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

My father is heading for 80, he does a fair bit but I do all the calving, night checks and every bit of calf rearing aswell as all milking in a spring on my own
I know well what's involved

Devils advocate if your ole lad retired, you get a year where milk price crashes and the money simply isnt their to employ labour, what kind of hours would you need to be doing in the spring to take up the slack, and do machinery work on top of everything else, would sleep be a option at all

Dunedin

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It more a west of Ireland thing now. It still prevalent as far as I know amount going to ag college is higher than 10 years ago

I’m not talking necessarily about those going to ag college but on the bit that young fellas go driving tractors and end up in the mart bit....... I’m 45 and if I went to the mart today I’d be one of the youngest there. Maybe even the youngest........!!

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I agree with Dawg about the bull**** line that find a job you enjoy and you will never work a day to in your life. My mother had a great line when poverty comes in the door love flies out the window.

A good amount of lads that come from a farming background often get involved in the sector from tractor or machinery work. At 17 years of age they end up doing a bit of tedding or mowing and start earning money. Often the parent never lets them know the costs involved. They may even be earning before that as they may be relief milking or giving a hand to a local farmer at busy times of the year. When there friends are lucky to be earning 50-150/ week for the holidays they are on double that.

They think this is the life. When I left school and started my training there was a lads from my class stayed at home. He used to do odd bits of tractor work as well as timber and turf. He would always have no way in his pocket and be blowing about the 150-200/ week he was earning when I was away from home paying digs out of a 50 pounds a week wage. 10 years later I was on over 200/ week and he was on much the same within another 10 I was earning over double his money.

A distance from me is a dairy farmer he has 150 acres milks 100 cows. He has one son. The son is a qualified nurse he abroad and is coming home in 6-12months Father who is over 60 wants him to go milking. The son wants the farm changed over to drystock. He has done a bit of research and has calculated the farm needs 100-150k in investment to stay milk and reduce workload. He know can come home go nursing earn 40k/ year and that will rise as his career develops.

Father has this idea if they rent a bit of ground and milk 150 cows on the home platform it's the way to go. Son is having none of it.

Too many lads end up on tractors, then go to ag college and by the time they are 25-30 only see then that there is no future farming for them and end up on tractors or hanging around marts for the rest of there life.

The son would be mad to do what the father wants, You could imagine somone used to 38 hr weeks, 6 weeks holidys , forget the job once you're out the door on a friday evening etc, and then being tied to a farm 24/7..... even a drystock farm.
This farmer must be trying to live out his dreams in his sons life.
If he's over sixty he hasn't a clue when his health will take a downturn and by then, if he gets his way, he'll have a noose on his sons life as well.
I already see my age group working harder than they have in a long time trying to deal with the new farm developements

Castlekeeper

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I agree with Dawg about the bull**** line that find a job you enjoy and you will never work a day to in your life. My mother had a great line when poverty comes in the door love flies out the window.

A good amount of lads that come from a farming background often get involved in the sector from tractor or machinery work. At 17 years of age they end up doing a bit of tedding or mowing and start earning money. Often the parent never lets them know the costs involved. They may even be earning before that as they may be relief milking or giving a hand to a local farmer at busy times of the year. When there friends are lucky to be earning 50-150/ week for the holidays they are on double that.

They think this is the life. When I left school and started my training there was a lads from my class stayed at home. He used to do odd bits of tractor work as well as timber and turf. He would always have no way in his pocket and be blowing about the 150-200/ week he was earning when I was away from home paying digs out of a 50 pounds a week wage. 10 years later I was on over 200/ week and he was on much the same within another 10 I was earning over double his money.


Too many lads end up on tractors, then go to ag college and by the time they are 25-30 only see then that there is no future farming for them and end up on tractors or hanging around marts for the rest of there life.

There are plenty like that in all walks of life, and they find their own level. But equally I know of plenty similar lads that started out with tipping away and have 3 or 4 tractors and maybe a truck or a digger on the go and are earning plenty and enjoy their lifestyle.

GrasstoMilk

jaymla627 wrote: »

Devils advocate if your ole lad retired, you get a year where milk price crashes and the money simply isnt their to employ labour, what kind of hours would you need to be doing in the spring to take up the slack, and do machinery work on top of everything else, would sleep be a option at all

Jay, been through it all whether I was farming myself or witnessed it through my father
I'd see myself now in a much better position than my parents were ever in to employ someone on a partime basis and that's mostly from the sacrifices they made for us

Hire a full time milker to help in spring - have a young lad coming in in the evenings atm looking to learn how to milk
Get first 2 or 3 rounds of fert spread by contractor, I can quit doing the mowing and bailing, there's lots of little things I'm doing that take up more time than you realise that someone else can do when I can't

I won't see myself stuck, dad does alot but there's guys around here that can be paid to it that work

Castlekeeper

jaymla627 wrote: »

your in a honeymoon period at the minute in having help, down the line when youll be mostly flying solo combined with money going out to help fund retirement, your viewpoint will change, the gap between the older generation retiring and the next-generations son/daughter stepping up to help take the slack up is a huge factor

I don't know about honeymoon periods, I left school at 16, did my ag courses, farmed away, played loads of sport, socialised well, and farmed away, kept myself educated and listened to a lot of smart people, travelled well, farmed away, went to uni part time, farmed away, stuck in loads of voluntary stuff all the time, invested well, worked off farm while, yeah, farming away, got married had kids, dropped the off farm stuff and tried the expansion trick then, but I gave that up after a few years as a mugs game. I'm doing grand, heading for retirement whenever I want, except I'm not 50 yet and the kids are youngish.

The thing is, I mainly just do what I want, don't look too far ahead and I don't aim to be a billionaire (who are always going farming!) and things are working out well.
Btw I've an average size farm of very average land my good wife is here on the farm with me, she left a good but stressful and pointless job. My parents are in their 80's and still tipping about, that's all I'd aim for health wise.

thestinge

Fantastic amount of judgement and looking over the hedge on display here.

Congrats to the usual suspects, great that you have even more time to spend online.

Life is far more than anecdotal stories about people you half know, and I can guarantee you don't know the half of it.

Gawddawggonnit

GrasstoMilk wrote: »

Can I ask why you don't just sell it all up and retire then?
From as much as I can understand you never seem to be happy with all the work involved and how it always falls back on yourself despite the labour force you have?
Why did you bother to make the move across to France in the first place

When I was 11 my parents sold up a 40 ac dairy farm and bought a 120 ac one 30 miles away so they could provide a better future for us and give me the option of farming full time if I wished

That was only 30 miles of a move and it was tough enough on all of us

I'm home since 2013 and was working for other guys for few years since till we were able to create another wage for me at home

My 2 sisters and fiance have 9 to 5s, yep great perks to it but its no picnic either
You start work at 9 but they're up at 7 at the latest and not home till 6 or 6.30 when in the office

1. I’ll retire when myself and OH decide to. It’s my decision.
2. Basic rule of thumb — the more staff you have, the busier you become.
3. I moved here for several reasons, one of them being the availability of land.
4. I also, like your Dad, started with 44 naked acres.

You’re experiencing probably one of the most benign periods dairy farming has ever seen in Ireland. Do you think that the Gov will continue giving lucrative grants (etc) to dairy farmers? Do you think that with all the environmental issues facing farming stocking rates etc will stay as they are?
Using your numbers as a rough guide, you’ll need 360ac for each and every young little farmer that you have. Not easy eh?

Farming is a business like any other.

Furze99

Diarmuid B wrote: »

.... yet they’re all pulling in nice grants have excellent tractors, machinery etc.....

Biscuitus wrote: »

.... the fact that farming in Ireland is in a disastrous state and only getting worse.

How do you square these two valid opinions? I'm not farming but have several neighbours who are and the full time lads seem to be doing fine, certainly if you go by the neatness of their yards, substantial outhouses, high powered tractors, diggers etc etc. Also children mostly well educated and in college. And this would be mixed land, some 'disadvantaged': no dairying, sheep, dry stock and suckler with some tillage & forestry. All seem to be doing grand

Bass Reeves

Furze99 wrote: »

How do you square these two valid opinions? I'm not farming but have several neighbours who are and the full time lads seem to be doing fine, certainly if you go by the neatness of their yards, substantial outhouses, high powered tractors, diggers etc etc. Also children mostly well educated and in college. And this would be mixed land, some 'disadvantaged': no dairying, sheep, dry stock and suckler with some tillage & forestry. All seem to be doing grand

You probably have a high portion of part time lads as well. These are great for contractor's and maybe even full-time lads doing a bit on the side. These lads pay these bills generally when asked. I would not be negative about farming. However lads have to be aware of there options.

That nurse who's father wants him to go dairy farming look at his options. The BPS at the national average will be 14-15k, ANC will be hitting 4 k. On that size farm he can maximize GLAS another 5k. 24 k in payments.

With stock he has many options. As it was a dairy farm a calf to beef is an option as is store to beef, or even cull cows. If he cannot manage another 25k in profit from stock I be surprised. As a nurse he on a two on/off rota and would work night every 3-4 months. He be nuts to go investing and milking cows

GrasstoMilk

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

1. I’ll retire when myself and OH decide to. It’s my decision.
2. Basic rule of thumb — the more staff you have, the busier you become.
3. I moved here for several reasons, one of them being the availability of land.
4. I also, like your Dad, started with 44 naked acres.

You’re experiencing probably one of the most benign periods of dairy farming ever seen in Ireland. Do you think that the Gov will continue giving lucrative grants (etc) to dairy farmers? Do you think that with all the environmental issues facing farming stocking rates etc will stay as they are?
Using your numbers as a rough guide, you’ll need 360ac for each and every young little farmer that you have. Not easy eh?

Farming is a business like any other.

Not many grants drawn down here, parlour is about it
We've done the rest at full cost

What ever way the thing goes we'll just have to deal with it and make as best of the situation

maidhc

Rowley Birkin QC wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'm 36, grew up on a 80~acre dairy farm of good quality. Had no real interest in farming when I was younger and went off to college to study something else. I'm established in a career in technology now which means I can work from anywhere. Dad got out of cows a few years back and the place is leased out. Lads I grew up with have taken over family dairy farms full time lately and have gone through rounds of modernisation and expansion which I've been really interested in following progress on.

Funny thing is that I have a real draw back home at the moment and I'd love to do something part time with the place. I worked from home last year and had time for the first time ever to do a few jobs around the yard at lunchtime and in the evenings (it's let out to a cousin of mine so he's glad of the hand & there's always things that need attention) and it got me thinking about getting out of Dublin, moving back to the farmhouse full time and doing something (part time) with the land.

There's definitely a nostalgia element kicking in as I'm the only son and the thought of the place being sold off rattles me in all the wrong ways but also from a job satisfaction perspective I enjoy doing something where there's a visible / tangible result that working in tech usually doesn't give. I've briefly looked into doing the green cert on a part time basis but that's as far as it's gone.

Another option I've thought about is getting involved in Agri-Tech as I see it as huge growth area in the next few years. Either way, there's a draw back to the land hitting me fairly hard at the moment!

Anyway, rambling a bit here but wondering if anyone else has found themselves in the same spot?

Took over the family farm about 5 years ago at 34. 115 acres. It wasn’t leased and I bought the stock and machinery from my parents. It had a decent bps.

I continue to keep beef cattle on it and it works out ok, but you need to be sensible. I also work full time as a solicitor with my own firm.

My tips:

1. Try and get every grant going. I built a new slatted shed under tams. Best investment ever. Its a pleasure to overwinter the cattle now. Also in glas, it’s an easy enough 6k.

2. Value your time. Don’t be a rooter. If you can make more in your day job than it costs to pay for help it’s a no brainier. Mind you I’ll still take a few days off to bale silage during the year with my 22 year old ts115, but see 3 below.

3. Make the place nice and get things you like. I’ll admit to liking classic machinery. I do spend more than is sensible on it, but feckit.

4. Keep accounts. I’ll admit to not making loads by the time I have paid for improvements and such, but I’m making something, and the farm does compliment my main business in a number of respects, and even odd small ones like having a landcruiser and trailer when I was refurbishing my office last year.

5. Surround yourself with good people and build good relationships. I’m a crap judge of cattle, so I’m never going to set foot in the mart, but someone does it for me.

6. Ignore at least half the advice you get. It’s mostly crap.

Stihl waters

There would be more young farmers if the crowd that went before them relinquished control at an earlier age, what opportunities has any young farmer to look forward too if they don't get the farm until they're mid 30s or older when all their peers have viable businesses and careers established with a decade or more
If they're going to get the farm they should have full say by the time they're 30 at the latest to have any chance of making a good shot of it.
How many businesses do we see men in their 70s and 80s still working and the son or daughter waiting in the sidelines for him to die to get the business, not many apart from farming, if the farm is viable pass it on and dont have your child waiting for you to kick the bucket so they can take over in their mid 40s 10 years too late playing catch up with outdated equipment only to repeat the cycle with their own, a more business like approach to farming without all the sentimentality and we'd be a lot more professional in our outlook with a lot more young farmers in the mix

Dickie10

my father was the opposite he dragged myself and the brother to the solictor 11 years ago to get it signed away from him, he was so in tune with things, didnt want to go into a nurseing without Fair Deal affair being set up. I was still in university at the time but got stuck into making most of the big moves by 2013, buying of stock etc, management of sheep and cattle, marketing of them, grass and all that. He berayed me any time any bill/cheque/invoice came with his name still on it.

If i may give one piece of advice it is to try and keep your off farm wages going into a separate bank account. That way all farm purchases and farm cheques are working out of the one account, its a great way of quickly knowing if your farm is washing its face. Hopefully you wont need to dip into your bank account for farm bills.

Donald Trump

Dickie10 wrote: »

If i may give one piece of advice it is to try and keep your off farm wages going into a separate bank account. That way all farm purchases and farm cheques are working out of the one account, its a great way of quickly knowing if your farm is washing its face. Hopefully you wont need to dip into your bank account for farm bills.

If a lad has a high-paying steady off-farm job with more than enough job income to be comfortable, he can also put that spare income towards running the farm at a loss with investments that really improve the place for the medium/long term. That is if he wants to do that of course.

Dickie10

Yeah I dunno now tbh, would you not put any investment into farm from farm income and be paying less tax. going into higher tax bracket is madness on a drystock farm. id be paying everything out of the farm and leave feck all for the taxman

GNWoodd

A significant reason for the dearth of young farmers is that most young people won’t put up with what their predecessors did nor should they .
Past generations of farmers, in my opinion endured the actions of a variety of players from the Department of Agriculture, vets, marts , factories etc that won’t be tolerated by a younger better connected cohort of individuals. They have responded by walking away and who could blame them .

Donald Trump

Dickie10 wrote: »

Yeah I dunno now tbh, would you not put any investment into farm from farm income and be paying less tax. going into higher tax bracket is madness on a drystock farm. id be paying everything out of the farm and leave feck all for the taxman

What I said was to run it at a loss on paper by making investments. So you would be paying out all the farm income plus a bit extra. That would save you tax on your regular job. Assuming you had cash to spare.