Is torrenting/downloading pirated material illegal?

alexdlinz

Sounds like a stupid question but I've heard that even though there are laws prohibiting it, there's seldom been a prosecution.

I have friends who regularly torrent games, movies, music albums etc, all day everyday and haven't ever received a letter. Most don't even use VPN's.

This leads me to believe that it would be considered 'de-facto' legal. I mean if the Gardai even confiscated a person's laptop for an unrelated matter and found only pirated material (but no illegal pornography/violent content), would they even bring the case to the DPP?

Ive read that streaming isnt, downloading is and uploading definitely is

Open to correction

Peregrinus

It's the content owners, more than the police, who are most interested in enforcing this law. And they mainly want to enforce it against the people who are delivering pirated content, more than the consumers.

Which is not to say that consumers are never prosecuted. A bit like being found on a pub after hours; sometimes you have to nail a punter or to as part of a greater strategy aimed at the licensee of the pub. So there are occasional prosecutions of consumers of pirated content (a) to establish that it is illegal, and (b) as part of building a case against the providers of pirated content. Off the top of my head I can't recall such a prosecution in Ireland, but I could have missed it.

alexdlinz

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's the content owners, more than the police, who are most interested in enforcing this law. And they mainly want to enforce it against the people who are delivering pirated content, more than the consumers.

Which is not to say that consumers are never prosecuted. A bit like being found on a pub after hours; sometimes you have to nail a punter or to as part of a greater strategy aimed at the licensee of the pub. So there are occasional prosecutions of consumers of pirated content (a) to establish that it is illegal, and (b) as part of building a case against the providers of pirated content. Off the top of my head I can't recall such a prosecution in Ireland, but I could have missed it.

So it's essentially civil and not criminal law?

Wanderer78

illegally downloading or streaming copyrighted material is simply illegal

European Court of Justice ruled a few years back that streaming isn't illegal due to the streaming process (I'm tech illiterate so dunno the particulars).

Peregrinus

alexdlinz wrote: »

So it's essentially civil and not criminal law?

No, as far as I know it is an offence (as well as being an actionable civil matter). It's just an offence that the rights owners are more concerned about enforcing than the police (mostly) are.

GerardKeating

Wanderer78 wrote: »

illegally downloading or streaming copyrighted material is simply illegal

It debatable since there are few legal precedents.

In ye "olden" days, recording a TV programme to Video tape was for personal use only, and in theory, one could not watch a recording made by (for example) the wife/brother etc, then things were relaxed.

I don;t have the reference, but I remember (or mis-remember) an article on a Canadian court case that extended the right to record to video tape to digital files and that make file sharing (via Torrent/KaZaA/Napster/WinMx/eMule etc) effectilly legal. The article also stated that this is why most torrents of American TV shows were from Canadian TV stations.

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

European Court of Justice ruled a few years back that streaming isn't illegal due to the streaming process (I'm tech illiterate so dunno the particulars).

If it's this ruling, they actually said the opposite: https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=3830BB2C17CEC70D57443931C29B30E0?text=&docid=190142&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=8935324

72: In the light of all the foregoing considerations, the answer to the third and fourth questions referred is that Article 5(1) and (5) of Directive 2001/29 must be interpreted as meaning that acts of temporary reproduction, on an multimedia player, such as that at issue in the main proceedings, of a copyright-protected work obtained by streaming from a website belonging to a third party offering that work without the consent of the copyright holder does not satisfy the conditions set out in those provisions.

Emphasis mine. The conditions refers to the exceptions that do legally allow temporary reproduction. They held that streaming doesn't meet that criteria

Ger Roe

Wanderer78 wrote: »

illegally downloading or streaming copyrighted material is simply illegal

This.... everyone knows that if you are watching something that someone else has produced for payment, and you are not paying them for your use of their product, then it is illegal and unfair - end of.

If no one paid film and tv producers to make programmes, there would be nothing to download or stream.

Eduard Khil

Downloading and redistribution especially for personal gain is illegal. Simply watching isn't

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

If it's this ruling, they actually said the opposite: https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=3830BB2C17CEC70D57443931C29B30E0?text=&docid=190142&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=8935324Emphasis mine. The conditions refers to the exceptions that do legally allow temporary reproduction. They held that streaming doesn't meet that criteria

This is the ruling I was referring to.

https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document_print.jsf;jsessionid=9ea7d2dc30ddea332cd53d454e8d9874980012d17395.e34KaxiLc3qMb40Rch0SaxuPaxj0doclang=EN&text=&pageIndex=0&part=1&mode=DOC&docid=153302&occ=first&dir=&cid=3470

"17. Lastly, the referring court points out that, ordinarily, when an internet user browses the internet, he does not set out to make a copy of the image unless he chooses to download it or to print it out. His aim is to view the content of the website selected. The on-screen copies and the cached copies are therefore merely the incidental consequence of the use of his computer to view a website."

"Article 5 of Directive 2001/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in the information society must be interpreted as meaning that the copies on the user’s computer screen and the copies in the internet ‘cache’ of that computer’s hard disk, made by an end-user in the course of viewing a website, satisfy the conditions that those copies must be temporary, that they must be transient or incidental in nature and that they must constitute an integral and essential part of a technological process, as well as the conditions laid down in Article 5(5) of that directive, and that they may therefore be made without the authorisation of the copyright holders."

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

European Court of Justice ruled a few years back that streaming isn't illegal due to the streaming process (I'm tech illiterate so dunno the particulars).

illegally streaming copyrighted material is simply illegal!

GerardKeating wrote: »

It debatable since there are few legal precedents.

In ye "olden" days, recording a TV programme to Video tape was for personal use only, and in theory, one could not watch a recording made by (for example) the wife/brother etc, then things were relaxed.

I don;t have the reference, but I remember (or mis-remember) an article on a Canadian court case that extended the right to record to video tape to digital files and that make file sharing (via Torrent/KaZaA/Napster/WinMx/eMule etc) effectilly legal. The article also stated that this is why most torrents of American TV shows were from Canadian TV stations.

mobdro wasnt taken down for no reason!

Ger Roe wrote: »

This.... everyone knows that if you are watching something that someone else has produced for payment, and you are not paying them for your use of their product, then it is illegal and unfair - end of.

If no one paid film and tv producers to make programmes, there would be nothing to download or stream.

many broadcasters are whats called 'rent seekers', they use their position of power and wealth to monopolise and control markets, sky would be a typical rent seeker, many of their 'rights' would have been once in the public domain, viewing rights etc, i.e. fta, so you can debate about fairness there, or the lack of.....

tscul32

I wonder would they only go after you if you regularly downloaded lots of latest movies, music, etc. Might it be seen as not so bad if you usually only download e.g.the episode of something on BBC that you missed but can't catch up on cos the BBC player doesn't work in Ireland. I'd be really surprised if they tried to prosecute for that level.

Samuel T. Cogley

The only people they go after are people providing illegal streams / boxes.

GerardKeating

Wanderer78 wrote: »

mobdro wasnt taken down for no reason!

A bit of a difference between an commerical illegal steaming service and downloading TV programms.

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

The only people they go after are people providing illegal streams / boxes.

Sometimes people downloading TV programs get Cease and Desist emails (via their ISP) for downloading programs.

L1011

OP is a re-reg troll who was not posting seriously. Don't waste your time trying to answer.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is the ruling I was referring to.

https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document_print.jsf;jsessionid=9ea7d2dc30ddea332cd53d454e8d9874980012d17395.e34KaxiLc3qMb40Rch0SaxuPaxj0doclang=EN&text=&pageIndex=0&part=1&mode=DOC&docid=153302&occ=first&dir=&cid=3470

"17. Lastly, the referring court points out that, ordinarily, when an internet user browses the internet, he does not set out to make a copy of the image unless he chooses to download it or to print it out. His aim is to view the content of the website selected. The on-screen copies and the cached copies are therefore merely the incidental consequence of the use of his computer to view a website."

"Article 5 of Directive 2001/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in the information society must be interpreted as meaning that the copies on the user’s computer screen and the copies in the internet ‘cache’ of that computer’s hard disk, made by an end-user in the course of viewing a website, satisfy the conditions that those copies must be temporary, that they must be transient or incidental in nature and that they must constitute an integral and essential part of a technological process, as well as the conditions laid down in Article 5(5) of that directive, and that they may therefore be made without the authorisation of the copyright holders."

That's in reference to legally accessed information though

guy2231

L1011 wrote: »

OP is a re-reg troll who was not posting seriously. Don't waste your time trying to answer.

Why would he not be posting seriously? How would a simple question like this possibly be trolling? What amusement would anyone get from this?

L1011

guy2231 wrote: »

Why would he not be posting seriously? How would a simple question like this possibly be trolling? What amusement would anyone get from this?

All they do is ask complex questions and never reply to them.

grogi

28064212 wrote: »

If it's this ruling, they actually said the opposite: https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf;jsessionid=3830BB2C17CEC70D57443931C29B30E0?text=&docid=190142&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=8935324Emphasis mine. The conditions refers to the exceptions that do legally allow temporary reproduction. They held that streaming doesn't meet that criteria

Don't reproduce it on any media then, even temporarily.

In fairness there is so much **** you can access legally these days that there isn't enough hours in a day to watch all that, I don't see a reason to go through the trouble of setting up streams or torrents.

Victor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

illegally ... is simply illegal

Of course it is. However, what constitutes illegally downloading?

I see sheep

If being a Pirate isn't illegal then I don't think it's cool at all.

Before YouTube and streaming services I'd download an album off Pirate Bay etc. If I really liked it I'd go out and buy it and support the band by buying tickets to their gigs or merch.

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Of course it is. However, what constitutes illegally downloading?

Seeding the torrent you're downloading is what can get you in trouble. You can disable that.

riclad

Since many programs are now exclusive to apple TV, Netflix, hbo max, sky Atlantic, Disney, if you wish watch to watch certain comedy , dramas your choice is pay a subscription or else torrent the program
The old days when every drama, comedy ended up being shown on BBC itv or channel 4 is over
I think rights holders Disney etc are more interested in shutting down illegal streaming websites than trying to prosecute one person for downloading 1 program
Like Ted lassoo is only on apple TV
The only legal way to view it is to pay for apple tv

riclad

riclad wrote: »

Since many programs are now exclusive to apple TV, Netflix, hbo max, sky Atlantic, Disney, if you wish watch to watch certain comedy , dramas your choice is pay a subscription or else torrent the program
The old days when every drama, comedy ended up being shown on BBC itv or channel 4 is over
I think rights holders Disney etc are more interested in shutting down illegal streaming websites than trying to prosecute one person for downloading 1 program
Like Ted lassoo is only on apple TV
The only legal way to view it is to pay for apple tv

I think illegal downloading is using a torrent client or app
to download a file eg episode 1 TV show prog. avi
Which is stored on your pc, tablet and can be viewed later
as opposed to just clicking on a link to stream the TV show
to your pc, tablet, laptop

riclad

riclad wrote: »

I think illegal downloading is using a torrent client or app
to download a file eg episode 1 TV show prog. avi
Which is stored on your pc, tablet and can be viewed later
as opposed to just clicking on a link to stream the TV show
to your pc, tablet, laptop

Streaming is just as illegal as downloading a torrent. The data has to get to your computer for it to be played through the browser. But with streaming, you aren't uploading it to others so it's less illegal I guess.

https://torrentfreak.com/ace-mpa-ask-cloudflare-to-unmask-operators-of-two-dozen-pirate-sites-210530/

The list of sites there are mostly streaming.

28064212

grogi wrote: »

Don't reproduce it on any media then, even temporarily.

All streaming involves temporary reproduction. That's basically the definition of streaming.

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the ruling I was referring to.

https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document_print.jsf;jsessionid=9ea7d2dc30ddea332cd53d454e8d9874980012d17395.e34KaxiLc3qMb40Rch0SaxuPaxj0doclang=EN&text=&pageIndex=0&part=1&mode=DOC&docid=153302&occ=first&dir=&cid=3470

"17. Lastly, the referring court points out that, ordinarily, when an internet user browses the internet, he does not set out to make a copy of the image unless he chooses to download it or to print it out. His aim is to view the content of the website selected. The on-screen copies and the cached copies are therefore merely the incidental consequence of the use of his computer to view a website."

"Article 5 of Directive 2001/29/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 May 2001 on the harmonisation of certain aspects of copyright and related rights in the information society must be interpreted as meaning that the copies on the user’s computer screen and the copies in the internet ‘cache’ of that computer’s hard disk, made by an end-user in the course of viewing a website, satisfy the conditions that those copies must be temporary, that they must be transient or incidental in nature and that they must constitute an integral and essential part of a technological process, as well as the conditions laid down in Article 5(5) of that directive, and that they may therefore be made without the authorisation of the copyright holders."

That's a notably more generalised ruling, relating to copying which cannot be avoided in the normal course of internet usage. The ruling I posted is explicitly in relation to streaming, and is from three years after this one

Samuel T. Cogley

GerardKeating wrote: »

Sometimes people downloading TV programs get Cease and Desist emails (via their ISP) for downloading programs.

Or indeed a bill from the studio etc. But I was referring to AGS. Sorry should have made that clearer.

grogi

I'll play a devil advocate/troll a bit here...

28064212 wrote: »

All streaming involves temporary reproduction.

It all depends what reproduction means for you.
* If simply sending the bits over the wire is reproduction, is your ISP, backbone network owners etc all reproducing? Are they all making illegal copies?
* If reproduction means making any persistent, non violate copy of the material - then no, you don't need to do that while streaming. That's the biggest advantage of streaming over torrenting illegal content - you don't need to have copies (you only need to locally reconstruct the very small part of the content in violate memory at the time) and you don't upload the material at all.

Victor

grogi wrote: »

* If simply sending the bits over the wire is reproduction, is your ISP, backbone network owners etc all reproducing? Are they all making illegal copies?

The ISP can probably avail of a 'common carrier' defence - they don't know what is being received.

jimmycrackcorm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

mobdro wasnt taken down for no reason!

But there is no evidence either that it was taken down because of a legal issue.