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Totota Mirai breaks world record (1,000km) on single tank of Hydrogen

  • 01-06-2021 9:39am
    #1
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    https://insideevs.com/news/511082/toyota-mirai-record-1000km-hydrogen/



    'Fantastic*' achievement from Toyota where their Mirai hydrogen car achieved 1,003 km on a full tank of hydrogen (5.6kg tank capacity)

    It only took 286kWh of electricity to produce the hydrogen, and the cars average speed was 46km/h, and did the trip in only 21 hours!!!! Thats Dublin - Cork - Dublin - Cork - Dublin on 1 tank, albeit at an extremely slow speed for the motorway.....

    The future is now people!!!! Now all we need are the hundreds of filling stations around the country to convert to hydrogen stations at a cost of millions upon millions, and the future will be the present...... then all that electricity we waste putting into our EV's can be better used to create hydrogen.....

    286Wh/km @ 46km/hr, meanwhile last week I achieved 159Wh/km @ 120km/hr....



    *fantastic maybe 20-30 years ago, but not today....


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    I think sarcasm is hard to communicate in writing.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    apparently they also used an ultra rare 700bar hydrogen pump to fuel the car as opposed to the regular old (but also extremely rare) 350bar pumps that are 10 a penny these days..... so that apparently gave them a huge range boost as well...


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,334 ✭✭✭ Royale with Cheese


    And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    1 - this isnt an EV
    2 - we have no hydrogen pumps in this country
    3- hydrogen FOOL cells.


    Can we end this nonsense thread now. (I know the OP was sarcasm)


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    ELM327 wrote: »
    1 - this isnt an EV
    2 - we have no hydrogen pumps in this country
    3- hydrogen FOOL cells.


    Can we end this nonsense thread now. (I know the OP was sarcasm)

    ah but it seemingly has a 1.4kWh battery in it...... so gets in by the skin of its teeth no??


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    ah but it seemingly has a 1.4kWh battery in it...... so gets in by the skin of its teeth no??


    Sure my diesel van has a battery in it too, and is no more an EV than a mirai is!


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    ELM327 wrote: »
    1 - this isnt an EV

    The Toyota Mirai is an EV, I think BMW flirted with hydrogen combustion, but they've all worked out it's more efficent to use a Fuel Cell to generate electricity instead of combusting the hydrogen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    liamog wrote: »
    The Toyota Mirai is an EV, I think BMW flirted with hydrogen combustion, but they've all worked out it's more efficent to use a Fuel Cell to generate electricity instead of combusting the hydrogen.
    if it's an EV how do I connect my EVSE?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    ELM327 wrote: »
    if it's an EV how do I connect my EVSE?
    It is an EV because the power train is an electric motor. The same reason a REX is classed as EV and not PHEV


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    So is a epower nissan that has no plug but no connection between the engine and the wheels an EV too?

    This is really pushing the realms of logical thought IMO


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    Yes, you don't have to agree with it, but under the broad church of electric vehicle, it's the motive power that counts, not the source.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    with all due respect that is nonsense.
    A car with a fuel tank for petrol or h2 or diesel , without even a plug, is not an EV


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    ELM327 wrote: »
    with all due respect that is nonsense.
    A car with a fuel tank for petrol or h2 or diesel , without even a plug, is not an EV

    An electric vehicle is a vehicle that uses an electric motor for propulsion. How you store your energy before using it to power the motor is a whole different letter.
    Good luck getting engineers to change the definition to suit your opinion :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭ eagerv


    Surely it's an EV, but not a BEV ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭ AndyBoBandy


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

    Is it though?

    They just used 268kWh of electricity to create hydrogen so they could hyper mile a car at 46km/h a distance of 1,000km

    The car sitting in my driveway now will do about 1,500km at motorway speeds with that same 268kWh of electricity..

    Development is needed in everything to make everything better, of course it is, but this is akin to trying to make the best ever/longest lasting magnetic tape for VHS/Cassette tapes, while the rest of the world has long since switched to digital.

    Moving to hydrogen will cost billions in the required infrastructure upgrades, from production, to storage, to delivery..... meanwhile we can plug in our EV and charge it anywhere there is electricity, which we pretty much have had nationwide since about 60-70 years ago.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

    The ship has sailed on FCEVs for private passenger vehicles. Hydrogen is a great energy storage system, but batteries are a much more efficient system for short term storage. A lithium ion battery will lose about 10% of the electricity between charging and discharging losses. Hydrogen electrolysers lose about 30% in the production of hydrogen, and then another 50% in the re-electrification process.

    To take power from a 1MW Wind Turbine (it's a contrived example but illustrates the point), if you charge a car directly you'll have 900kW available for motion, if you use the same to create hydrogen you'll end up with 300kW.
    Battery tech has progress so much in the last 10 years and doesn't seem to be slowing down yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    Is it though?

    They just used 268kWh of electricity to create hydrogen so they could hyper mile a car at 46km/h a distance of 1,000km

    The car sitting in my driveway now will do about 1,500km at motorway speeds with that same 268kWh of electricity..

    Development is needed in everything to make everything better, of course it is, but this is akin to trying to make the best ever/longest lasting magnetic tape for VHS/Cassette tapes, while the rest of the world has long since switched to digital.

    Moving to hydrogen will cost billions in the required infrastructure upgrades, from production, to storage, to delivery..... meanwhile we can plug in our EV and charge it anywhere there is electricity, which we pretty much have had nationwide since about 60-70 years ago.


    For passenger cars yes, BEVs are the preferable solution. Though a case could be made once economies of scale kick in for hydrogen that it is a valid alternative to a battery powered car.

    Once you go larger though that's where hyrdogen starts to become a much more viable solution. HGV's and ships are the two main areas that batteries simply cannot compete in, not unless energy density increases tenfold in the next 10 years.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 6,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭ liamog


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    Though a case could be made once economies of scale kick in for hydrogen that it is a valid alternative to a battery powered car.

    It's not a scaling issue, the physics of kW => H2 => kW are just so much worse than kW => battery => kW. It's the same reason e-Fuels will only ever be a niche product to keep classic cars on the road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,397 ✭✭✭ FishOnABike


    And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.

    But think of the levels of methane and hydrogen sulphide potentially produced en route.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭ PaulRyan97


    liamog wrote: »
    It's not a scaling issue, the physics of kW => H2 => kW are just so much worse than kW => battery => kW. It's the same reason e-Fuels will only ever be a niche product to keep classic cars on the road.

    Sorry, should have explained myself better there. I was more thinking along the lines that a hydrogen refuel is way more expensive than simply charging your car at the moment. However if the cost difference is reduced it becomes a viable alternative for people who require a lot more energy than onboard batteries can traditionally provide.

    Say you drive a diesel 4x4 that you use to tow a lot. Currently the BEV's available at the moment aren't great at it as the range penalty is quite severe. However with a FCEV there is a lot more potential energy onboard so range while towing would be a lot better, the towing limit would also be able to increase as the vehicles would weigh substantially less.

    Weight is the biggest drawback of batteries at the moment. Worst case example, a container ship needs roughly 30GWh of energy for a routine internation trip. A battery capable of supplying that would currently weigh about 100,000 tons. The equivalent hydrogen needed is about 1000 tons.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,349 ✭✭✭✭ Mad_Lad


    The Future is Nuclear power, HGV will probably use Hydrogen, they will make hydrogen from Nuclear.

    The Auto Industry would love Fuel cells because the tanks + fuel cell probably cost much less than the battery they don't care what the cost of fuel is to the driver.

    Who knows what the future holds, we could even see A small fuel cell that works like the Rex ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,857 ✭✭✭ Grab All Association


    And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.

    Hydrogen is an element in the human body :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,919 ✭✭✭✭ Calahonda52


    H2 should not be viewed as a substitute for Li, but as a substitute for CH4 another fossil fuel.
    RE sources are fine as long as its sunny and windy, but we do need an alternative to NG for the gas powered stations when there is a high pressure area from the Azores to Moscow on the last Friday, c 4:30 just as the sun sets, before Xmas when traditional Ireland hits peak load.
    Look up peak load on eirgrid


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    PaulRyan97 wrote: »
    I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.
    LOL


    Let's all waste energy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,287 ✭✭✭ n97 mini


    There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

    Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,862 ✭✭✭✭ ELM327


    n97 mini wrote: »
    There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

    Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?


    The train is already an EV as there's a diesel engine but an electric motor actually doing the propulsion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    n97 mini wrote: »
    There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

    Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?


    I have traveled with electric trains all my life. All fast trains around the globe are electric. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. As long as they lay down the tracks they can add a wire to transfer the electricity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,287 ✭✭✭ n97 mini


    ELM327 wrote: »
    The train is already an EV as there's a diesel engine but an electric motor actually doing the propulsion.
    innrain wrote: »
    I have traveled with electric trains all my life. All fast trains around the globe are electric. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. As long as they lay down the tracks they can add a wire to transfer the electricity.

    That may be the case, but neither answer the question. The power has to come from somewhere. Diesel is a fossil fuel.

    As for adding the overhead wire, that can be prohibitively expensive if there are low bridges along the route, as there inevitably are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭ innrain


    Tell this to TGV, ICE, KTX to name the ones I've travelled with. The benefits of fast public transport outweighs the new bridge requirement. Can you imagine Dublin-Cork in 45 minutes? Would you still use a car? I don't want to calculate the weight of 100 GWh battery because is like asking to calculate the efort of pulling a car with square wheels. There is no point. The bridge issue once solved is solved for 100 years. You'll have to pull the battery every journey.


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