Totota Mirai breaks world record (1,000km) on single tank of Hydrogen

AndyBoBandy · 01-06-2021 9:39am #1

https://insideevs.com/news/511082/toyota-mirai-record-1000km-hydrogen/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35N7wjmng4E

'Fantastic*' achievement from Toyota where their Mirai hydrogen car achieved 1,003 km on a full tank of hydrogen (5.6kg tank capacity)

It only took 286kWh of electricity to produce the hydrogen, and the cars average speed was 46km/h, and did the trip in only 21 hours!!!! Thats Dublin - Cork - Dublin - Cork - Dublin on 1 tank, albeit at an extremely slow speed for the motorway.....

The future is now people!!!! Now all we need are the hundreds of filling stations around the country to convert to hydrogen stations at a cost of millions upon millions, and the future will be the present...... then all that electricity we waste putting into our EV's can be better used to create hydrogen.....

286Wh/km @ 46km/hr, meanwhile last week I achieved 159Wh/km @ 120km/hr....

*fantastic maybe 20-30 years ago, but not today....

innrain · 01-06-2021 9:46am

I think sarcasm is hard to communicate in writing.

AndyBoBandy · 01-06-2021 9:52am

apparently they also used an ultra rare 700bar hydrogen pump to fuel the car as opposed to the regular old (but also extremely rare) 350bar pumps that are 10 a penny these days..... so that apparently gave them a huge range boost as well...

Royale with Cheese · 01-06-2021 9:53am

And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 9:54am

1 - this isnt an EV
2 - we have no hydrogen pumps in this country
3- hydrogen FOOL cells.

Can we end this nonsense thread now. (I know the OP was sarcasm)

AndyBoBandy · 01-06-2021 9:55am

ELM327 wrote: »

1 - this isnt an EV
2 - we have no hydrogen pumps in this country
3- hydrogen FOOL cells.

Can we end this nonsense thread now. (I know the OP was sarcasm)

ah but it seemingly has a 1.4kWh battery in it...... so gets in by the skin of its teeth no??

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 10:01am

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

ah but it seemingly has a 1.4kWh battery in it...... so gets in by the skin of its teeth no??

Sure my diesel van has a battery in it too, and is no more an EV than a mirai is!

liamog · 01-06-2021 11:07am

ELM327 wrote: »

1 - this isnt an EV

The Toyota Mirai is an EV, I think BMW flirted with hydrogen combustion, but they've all worked out it's more efficent to use a Fuel Cell to generate electricity instead of combusting the hydrogen.

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 11:20am

liamog wrote: »

The Toyota Mirai is an EV, I think BMW flirted with hydrogen combustion, but they've all worked out it's more efficent to use a Fuel Cell to generate electricity instead of combusting the hydrogen.

if it's an EV how do I connect my EVSE?

innrain · 01-06-2021 11:23am

ELM327 wrote: »

if it's an EV how do I connect my EVSE?

It is an EV because the power train is an electric motor. The same reason a REX is classed as EV and not PHEV

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 12:58pm

So is a epower nissan that has no plug but no connection between the engine and the wheels an EV too?

This is really pushing the realms of logical thought IMO

liamog · 01-06-2021 1:21pm

Yes, you don't have to agree with it, but under the broad church of electric vehicle, it's the motive power that counts, not the source.

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 1:28pm

with all due respect that is nonsense.
A car with a fuel tank for petrol or h2 or diesel , without even a plug, is not an EV

liamog · 01-06-2021 1:51pm

ELM327 wrote: »

with all due respect that is nonsense.
A car with a fuel tank for petrol or h2 or diesel , without even a plug, is not an EV

An electric vehicle is a vehicle that uses an electric motor for propulsion. How you store your energy before using it to power the motor is a whole different letter.
Good luck getting engineers to change the definition to suit your opinion

eagerv · 01-06-2021 1:58pm

Surely it's an EV, but not a BEV ?

PaulRyan97 · 01-06-2021 2:06pm

I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

AndyBoBandy · 01-06-2021 2:28pm

PaulRyan97 wrote: »

development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

Is it though?

They just used 268kWh of electricity to create hydrogen so they could hyper mile a car at 46km/h a distance of 1,000km

The car sitting in my driveway now will do about 1,500km at motorway speeds with that same 268kWh of electricity..

Development is needed in everything to make everything better, of course it is, but this is akin to trying to make the best ever/longest lasting magnetic tape for VHS/Cassette tapes, while the rest of the world has long since switched to digital.

Moving to hydrogen will cost billions in the required infrastructure upgrades, from production, to storage, to delivery..... meanwhile we can plug in our EV and charge it anywhere there is electricity, which we pretty much have had nationwide since about 60-70 years ago.

liamog · 01-06-2021 2:31pm

PaulRyan97 wrote: »

I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

The ship has sailed on FCEVs for private passenger vehicles. Hydrogen is a great energy storage system, but batteries are a much more efficient system for short term storage. A lithium ion battery will lose about 10% of the electricity between charging and discharging losses. Hydrogen electrolysers lose about 30% in the production of hydrogen, and then another 50% in the re-electrification process.

To take power from a 1MW Wind Turbine (it's a contrived example but illustrates the point), if you charge a car directly you'll have 900kW available for motion, if you use the same to create hydrogen you'll end up with 300kW.
Battery tech has progress so much in the last 10 years and doesn't seem to be slowing down yet.

PaulRyan97 · 01-06-2021 2:37pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Is it though?

They just used 268kWh of electricity to create hydrogen so they could hyper mile a car at 46km/h a distance of 1,000km

The car sitting in my driveway now will do about 1,500km at motorway speeds with that same 268kWh of electricity..

Development is needed in everything to make everything better, of course it is, but this is akin to trying to make the best ever/longest lasting magnetic tape for VHS/Cassette tapes, while the rest of the world has long since switched to digital.

Moving to hydrogen will cost billions in the required infrastructure upgrades, from production, to storage, to delivery..... meanwhile we can plug in our EV and charge it anywhere there is electricity, which we pretty much have had nationwide since about 60-70 years ago.

For passenger cars yes, BEVs are the preferable solution. Though a case could be made once economies of scale kick in for hydrogen that it is a valid alternative to a battery powered car.

Once you go larger though that's where hyrdogen starts to become a much more viable solution. HGV's and ships are the two main areas that batteries simply cannot compete in, not unless energy density increases tenfold in the next 10 years.

liamog · 01-06-2021 2:42pm

PaulRyan97 wrote: »

Though a case could be made once economies of scale kick in for hydrogen that it is a valid alternative to a battery powered car.

It's not a scaling issue, the physics of kW => H2 => kW are just so much worse than kW => battery => kW. It's the same reason e-Fuels will only ever be a niche product to keep classic cars on the road.

FishOnABike · 01-06-2021 2:51pm

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.

But think of the levels of methane and hydrogen sulphide potentially produced en route.

PaulRyan97 · 01-06-2021 3:00pm

liamog wrote: »

It's not a scaling issue, the physics of kW => H2 => kW are just so much worse than kW => battery => kW. It's the same reason e-Fuels will only ever be a niche product to keep classic cars on the road.

Sorry, should have explained myself better there. I was more thinking along the lines that a hydrogen refuel is way more expensive than simply charging your car at the moment. However if the cost difference is reduced it becomes a viable alternative for people who require a lot more energy than onboard batteries can traditionally provide.

Say you drive a diesel 4x4 that you use to tow a lot. Currently the BEV's available at the moment aren't great at it as the range penalty is quite severe. However with a FCEV there is a lot more potential energy onboard so range while towing would be a lot better, the towing limit would also be able to increase as the vehicles would weigh substantially less.

Weight is the biggest drawback of batteries at the moment. Worst case example, a container ship needs roughly 30GWh of energy for a routine internation trip. A battery capable of supplying that would currently weigh about 100,000 tons. The equivalent hydrogen needed is about 1000 tons.

01-06-2021 3:03pm

The Future is Nuclear power, HGV will probably use Hydrogen, they will make hydrogen from Nuclear.

The Auto Industry would love Fuel cells because the tanks + fuel cell probably cost much less than the battery they don't care what the cost of fuel is to the driver.

Who knows what the future holds, we could even see A small fuel cell that works like the Rex ?

Grab All Association · 01-06-2021 3:04pm

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

And if you walked the 1000km instead you could have done it without using any hydrogen.

Hydrogen is an element in the human body :P

Calahonda52 · 01-06-2021 3:05pm

H2 should not be viewed as a substitute for Li, but as a substitute for CH4 another fossil fuel.
RE sources are fine as long as its sunny and windy, but we do need an alternative to NG for the gas powered stations when there is a high pressure area from the Azores to Moscow on the last Friday, c 4:30 just as the sun sets, before Xmas when traditional Ireland hits peak load.
Look up peak load on eirgrid

ELM327 · 01-06-2021 3:05pm

PaulRyan97 wrote: »

I don't understand the hate people here have for FCEVs, development has to continue, the technology is desperately needed.

LOL

Let's all waste energy!

n97 mini · 02-06-2021 2:55pm

There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?

ELM327 · 02-06-2021 3:25pm

n97 mini wrote: »

There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?

The train is already an EV as there's a diesel engine but an electric motor actually doing the propulsion.

innrain · 02-06-2021 3:42pm

n97 mini wrote: »

There are trains in existence that could do Dublin to Cork on hydrogen. They're around a while in fact.

Anyone hazard a guess at the size and weight of the battery required to do the same journey if the train was an "EV"?

I have traveled with electric trains all my life. All fast trains around the globe are electric. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. As long as they lay down the tracks they can add a wire to transfer the electricity.

n97 mini · 03-06-2021 2:29pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The train is already an EV as there's a diesel engine but an electric motor actually doing the propulsion.

innrain wrote: »

I have traveled with electric trains all my life. All fast trains around the globe are electric. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. As long as they lay down the tracks they can add a wire to transfer the electricity.

That may be the case, but neither answer the question. The power has to come from somewhere. Diesel is a fossil fuel.

As for adding the overhead wire, that can be prohibitively expensive if there are low bridges along the route, as there inevitably are.

innrain · 03-06-2021 3:14pm

Tell this to TGV, ICE, KTX to name the ones I've travelled with. The benefits of fast public transport outweighs the new bridge requirement. Can you imagine Dublin-Cork in 45 minutes? Would you still use a car? I don't want to calculate the weight of 100 GWh battery because is like asking to calculate the efort of pulling a car with square wheels. There is no point. The bridge issue once solved is solved for 100 years. You'll have to pull the battery every journey.

n97 mini · 03-06-2021 3:34pm

innrain wrote: »

Tell this to TGV, ICE, KTX to name the ones I've travelled with. The benefits of fast public transport outweighs the new bridge requirement. Can you imagine Dublin-Cork in 45 minutes?

Ironic that you use Dublin-Cork as an example of something that doesn't exist!

innrain wrote: »

Would you still use a car? I don't want to calculate the weight of 100 GWh battery because is like asking to calculate the efort of pulling a car with square wheels. There is no point. The bridge issue once solved is solved for 100 years. You'll have to pull the battery every journey.

Kinda the point I'm getting at... Huge battery vs small hydrogen tank.

ELM327 · 03-06-2021 4:06pm

n97 mini wrote: »

That may be the case, but neither answer the question. The power has to come from somewhere. Diesel is a fossil fuel.

As for adding the overhead wire, that can be prohibitively expensive if there are low bridges along the route, as there inevitably are.

So is hydrogen currently

But i was advised earlier on thread that a nissan e power and a hydrogen fool cell car are both EVs as they derive propulsion from a solely electric drivetrain.

ELM327 · 03-06-2021 4:07pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Ironic that you use Dublin-Cork as an example of something that doesn't exist!

Kinda the point I'm getting at... Huge battery vs small hydrogen tank.

It's not a small hydrogen tank
Have you seen the weight and size of the 3 hydrogen tanks in a mirai? Not to mention the energy needed to compress the h2 to a ridiculous level .

This is why h2 cars generally get ~50-60MPGe where EVs generally get over 90

innrain · 03-06-2021 5:46pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Ironic that you use Dublin-Cork as an example of something that doesn't exist!

Was not you that proposed to calculate the battery for a train going from Dublin to Cork?
I made the point that is a non problem and better imagine how beneficial would be a fast electric train like those which currently exist.

n97 mini · 04-06-2021 12:59pm

innrain wrote: »

Was not you that proposed to calculate the battery for a train going from Dublin to Cork?

Yes, battery vs hydrogen, both of which could run on the Cork line as it currently exists, and is the highest frequency intercity service.

Irish Rail have a tender out for hybrid electric/battery trains. I would imagine their intention therefore is limited overhead wires.

But this is getting away from my point, which is broadly that 'fool cells', as some like to call them, will have a use in heavy transportation, IMHO.

innrain · 04-06-2021 4:31pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Yes, battery vs hydrogen, both of which could run on the Cork line as it currently exists, and is the highest frequency intercity service.

Irish Rail have a tender out for hybrid electric/battery trains. I would imagine their intention therefore is limited overhead wires.

But this is getting away from my point, which is broadly that 'fool cells', as some like to call them, will have a use in heavy transportation, IMHO.

The thing with the H2 train is a bit of a distraction in a Mirai discussion. And if they want to buy hybrid trains they are probably green washing with some "mild" version where the battery runs the AC and the USB sockets.

I understand the value of H2 in energy storage. Unfortunately for the last 100 years more than 95% is produced with the release of CO2. In fact it is one of the most pollutant processes as H2 is widely use in the production of fertilizers which are another source of pollution in themselves. The so called green hydrogen is produced with energy deficit and no commercial entity would step on it (without some for of subsidy). Even if we crack fusion and get "unlimited" energy from it.
So H2 could be viable for long range road transport where it is hard to have efficient ways running wires for the trucks. For local public transport I'd say subways could be better solution on long term as compared with buses. Fun fact: how many capitals in Europe do not have an underground public transport?
But it seems they are expecting to have the line electric by 2030. They are also considering high speed trains so I'm not talking crazy here.

n97 mini · 04-06-2021 5:53pm

innrain wrote: »

The thing with the H2 train is a bit of a distraction in a Mirai discussion. And if they want to buy hybrid trains they are probably green washing with some "mild" version where the battery runs the AC and the USB sockets.

And then there were distractions from the hydrogen powered trains

I personally struggle to see a future for hydrogen powered cars, when a moderately size battery will suffice.

As regards the "green washing", it's been a while since I read about the tender, but the trains will recharge when overhead wires are available and will be able to run for 60km on battery power alone.

04-06-2021 6:36pm

Once hydrogen can be mate entirely from 100% emission free energy source I can bet you won't see many battery only HGV's, trains, Buses etc if we can rely less on minerals and chemicals for batteries is that not a good thing ?

I'm betting that Nuclear in some form or another will be a major source of power in the future, the amount of energy in diesel alone is mind boggling, getting this from the grid including powering all the cars is probably not practical.

The only thing I have against hydrogen isn't against hydrogen it's against those who will control the prices and Governments who will extort people for taxed just like our own Government.

slave1 · 13-08-2021 6:33pm

Saw one in the wild yesterday, nice looking car, fueled from locally generated H

slave1 · 13-08-2021 6:34pm

Poxy resolution, location is Aberdeen where they've Hydrogen refueling in place since 2015

ELM327 · 19-08-2021 11:40am

Fossil fuel car drives 1000km shocker

AndyBoBandy · 19-08-2021 12:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117775375#Comment_117775375

Maybe at least some good will comet of this, and they'll finally drop the 'Self Charging' fallacy

ELM327 · 19-08-2021 12:44pm

Nah, it's pervasive at this point.

Other OEMs are using it too

Totota Mirai breaks world record (1,000km) on single tank of Hydrogen

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