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remains of 215 children found buried near residential school in Canada

  • 29-05-2021 10:12am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,663 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    Shocking news that the remains of two hundred and fifteen children found buried near a residential school in Canada.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/28/world/children-remains-discovered-canada-kamloops-school/index.html?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral
    The gruesome discovery took decades and for some survivors of the Kamloops Indian Residential School in Canada, the confirmation that children as young as 3 were buried on school grounds crystallizes the sorrow they have carried all their lives.
    "This past weekend, with the help of a ground penetrating radar specialist, the stark truth of the preliminary findings came to light -- the confirmation of the remains of 215 children who were students of the Kamloops Indian Residential School," said Chief Rosanne Casimir of the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc community.
    The Kamloops Indian Residential school was one of the largest in Canada and operated from the late 19th century to the late 1970s. It was opened and run by the Catholic Church until the federal government took it over in the late 1960s.
    Thousands of mostly indigenous children were separated from their families and forced to attend residential schools.

    The report detailed decades of physical, sexual and emotional abuse suffered by children in government and church run institutions.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,302 ✭✭✭ joseywhales


    Ah it's not really shocking though, like it was bad enough in ireland but aboriginal people were not even treated as human equals. The government's were of course complicit, no one to advocate for the natives, chronic underfunding and lack of care to do proper auditing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭ Immortal Starlight


    I was shocked until I read the Catholic Church was involved. Then it’s not so shocking.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭ riffmongous


    residentialschoolsign.jpg;w=960;h=640;bgcolor=000000

    Sick, and one of the worst things is that's what's happening in China at the moment to the Uyghurs and there's f'all we can do about


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,124 ✭✭✭ EmmetSpiceland


    The church was, alledegly, involved in the Duplessis scandal in Canada as well, although they deny any involvement.

    “The Duplessis Orphans were 20,000 Canadian children who were wrongly certified as mentally ill by the provincial government of Quebec and confined to psychiatric institutions in the 1940s and 1950s. The children were deliberately miscertified in order to misappropriate additional subsidies from the federal government.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans?wprov=sfti1

    He/him/his

    “When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression”.

    #bekind



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Any context to the numbers?

    215 bodies but over what time and out of how many that passed through the place?

    Infant mortality was 4% in Canada in the 1950's https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/infant-mortality-rate


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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,280 ✭✭✭✭ Gatling


    Any context to the numbers?

    215 bodies but over what time and out of how many that passed through the place?

    Infant mortality was 4% in Canada in the 1950's https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/infant-mortality-rate

    It's been in operation since 1890 , it works out at something like 3 deaths per over a 70+ year period


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Gatling wrote: »
    It's been in operation since 1890 , it works out at something like 3 deaths per over a 70+ year period




    Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure.







    Should the outrage not be directed at the state and system that left those people in the state they were in?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭ riffmongous


    Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure.







    Should the outrage not be directed at the state and system that left those people in the state they were in?

    They weren't infants though. And it seems likely the deaths were undocumented.. so you could be talking of up to 215 murders/manslaughters


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭ Mysterypunter


    I was shocked until I read the Catholic Church was involved. Then it’s not so shocking.

    My first thought was what county is Canada in?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

    If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,663 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

    If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.

    And that the RCC would be involved somehow.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The church was, alledegly, involved in the Duplessis scandal in Canada as well, although they deny any involvement.

    “The Duplessis Orphans were 20,000 Canadian children who were wrongly certified as mentally ill by the provincial government of Quebec and confined to psychiatric institutions in the 1940s and 1950s. The children were deliberately miscertified in order to misappropriate additional subsidies from the federal government.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans?wprov=sfti1

    **** me that's some evil ****


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

    If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.

    Can you not discuss the issue without mud slinging?

    The user simple asked a pertinent question. You don't establish the truth without questions


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    Can you not discuss the issue without mud slinging?

    The user simple asked a pertinent question. You don't establish the truth without questions

    "Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure."

    Yeah the above is just a question. Sure...

    I couldn't possibly infer anything accurately about the poster's opinion from the above "question". Nope just not possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,223 ✭✭✭ Cluedo Monopoly


    Catherine Corless published her findings about the mass grave in Tuam nearly 7 years ago and we are still waiting for a comprehensive physical investigation. I bet anything that the Canadians won't waste any time getting to the truth. They wont wait 5 years for a report either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭ Smee_Again


    The Pro-Life Catholic Church strikes again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    "Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure."

    Yeah the above is just a question. Sure...

    I couldn't possibly infer anything accurately about the poster's opinion from the above "question". Nope just not possible.




    Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


    In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

    If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


    So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,663 ✭✭✭✭ Timberrrrrrrr


    Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


    In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

    If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


    So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

    Even if they all died of natural causes its still sickening that they were buried in unmarked graves and thier families not notified. How would you feel never knowing where your child was or what happened to them and now you hear this news and will be wondering if one of those bodies is your child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 highland212


    That's absolutely horrendous. Those poor children. Pro CC or not, you can't excuse this. And to think the Catholic Church still has patronage over around 90% of primary schools in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭ Smee_Again


    Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


    In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

    If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


    So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

    How many died without being documented?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Even if they all died of natural causes its still sickening that they were buried in unmarked graves and thier families not notified. How would you feel never knowing where your child was or what happened to them and now you hear this news and will be wondering if one of those bodies is your child.


    Of course. But was that normal practice then? I'm not being facetious. Is that how society treated those people.


    There are mass graves in a "graveyard" not to far from me here. It was attached to a workhouse which was a system administered by the then most powerful and wealthy country on the planet - Britain. A place where only the absolutely desperate would go during the bad times.


    There is one cross in the field where this mass grave is. With no names on it. There might be some records somewhere of people buried in it. Most of the people buried there (or even dumped into pits there if we want to be brutally honest) probably died within a generation of that Canadian school opening.


    Colonial mentality. And of course it should be investigated and truth found out about what went on over in Canada.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Here ye go. An example from an Irish workhouse. 1000 people dumped into Kilkenny workhouse mass grave pits between the years 1847- 1851. Over half of them children.
    https://www.rte.ie/history/famine-ireland/2021/0113/1189442-forgotten-victims-the-children-found-in-kilkenny-workhouse-grave/


    If you want to judge that by today's standards then it is absolutely horrific. I am sure it was horrific at the time nonetheless, but not enough for the wealthy overlords to bury them with dignity and personal gravestones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


    In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

    If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


    So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

    So if 2 died in 5 years that would average out at 40 over 100 years.

    So ask the questions. Why is there 200+ instead of 40. Also if it's normal why do we only hear these stories.about marginalized groups.

    But saying "hardly Auschwitz" is not exactly an attempt to elucidate the issues and get to the heart of the matter.

    It's incredibly dismissive and designed to minimise what is clearly an issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    Here ye go. An example from an Irish workhouse. 1000 people dumped into Kilkenny workhouse mass grave pits between the years 1847- 1851. Over half of them children.
    https://www.rte.ie/history/famine-ireland/2021/0113/1189442-forgotten-victims-the-children-found-in-kilkenny-workhouse-grave/


    If you want to judge that by today's standards then it is absolutely horrific. I am sure it was horrific at the time nonetheless, but not enough for the wealthy overlords to bury them with dignity and personal gravestones.

    Yes it's horrific. That's the point. Both are horrific. The truth of one does not minimize the other. Thank you for acknowledging that both these situations were horrific.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    So if 2 died in 5 years that would average out at 40 over 100 years.

    So ask the questions. Why is there 200+ instead of 40. Also if it's normal why do we only hear these stories.about marginalized groups.

    But saying "hardly Auschwitz" is not exactly an attempt to elucidate the issues and get to the heart of the matter.

    It's incredibly dismissive and designed to minimise what is clearly an issue.


    Your calculations are wrong. 2 dying for any given school year would be 200 over 100 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    Yes it's horrific. That's the point. Both are horrific. The truth of one does not minimize the other. Thank you for acknowledging that both these situations were horrific.




    Those Protestants. Up to no good as usual.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    Your calculations are wrong. 2 dying for any given school year would be 200 over 100 years.

    I missed the "in my year" part. Well no children died in my year. In fact no children died from my primary or secondary school in any year for all the 13 years I was in school.

    Is it the norm for 2 people to die from every year over the periods people are in school?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,259 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    LLMMLL wrote: »
    I missed the "in my year" part. Well no children died in my year. In fact no children died from my primary or secondary school in any year for all the 13 years I was in school.

    Is it the norm for 2 people to die from every year over the periods people are in school?




    I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


    I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,581 ✭✭✭ LLMMLL


    I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


    I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

    Was it 200?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭ Smee_Again


    I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


    I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

    But you know they died and were buried and where they were buried, these kids just disappeared or were disappeared with no paperwork, investigations or anything.

    You’re not comparing like and like and it’s a very transparent attempt to deflect attention away from yet another scandal involving the Catholic Church and their complete disregard for the lives of those entrusted to their care.


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