remains of 215 children found buried near residential school in Canada

Timberrrrrrrr

Shocking news that the remains of two hundred and fifteen children found buried near a residential school in Canada.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/28/world/children-remains-discovered-canada-kamloops-school/index.html?utm_source=upday&utm_medium=referral

The gruesome discovery took decades and for some survivors of the Kamloops Indian Residential School in Canada, the confirmation that children as young as 3 were buried on school grounds crystallizes the sorrow they have carried all their lives.

"This past weekend, with the help of a ground penetrating radar specialist, the stark truth of the preliminary findings came to light -- the confirmation of the remains of 215 children who were students of the Kamloops Indian Residential School," said Chief Rosanne Casimir of the Tk'emlúps te Secwépemc community.

The Kamloops Indian Residential school was one of the largest in Canada and operated from the late 19th century to the late 1970s. It was opened and run by the Catholic Church until the federal government took it over in the late 1960s.

Thousands of mostly indigenous children were separated from their families and forced to attend residential schools.

The report detailed decades of physical, sexual and emotional abuse suffered by children in government and church run institutions.

joseywhales

Ah it's not really shocking though, like it was bad enough in ireland but aboriginal people were not even treated as human equals. The government's were of course complicit, no one to advocate for the natives, chronic underfunding and lack of care to do proper auditing.

Immortal Starlight

I was shocked until I read the Catholic Church was involved. Then it’s not so shocking.

riffmongous

Sick, and one of the worst things is that's what's happening in China at the moment to the Uyghurs and there's f'all we can do about

EmmetSpiceland

The church was, alledegly, involved in the Duplessis scandal in Canada as well, although they deny any involvement.

“The Duplessis Orphans were 20,000 Canadian children who were wrongly certified as mentally ill by the provincial government of Quebec and confined to psychiatric institutions in the 1940s and 1950s. The children were deliberately miscertified in order to misappropriate additional subsidies from the federal government.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans?wprov=sfti1

Donald Trump

Any context to the numbers?

215 bodies but over what time and out of how many that passed through the place?

Infant mortality was 4% in Canada in the 1950's https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/infant-mortality-rate

Gatling

Donald Trump wrote: »

Any context to the numbers?

215 bodies but over what time and out of how many that passed through the place?

Infant mortality was 4% in Canada in the 1950's https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/CAN/canada/infant-mortality-rate

It's been in operation since 1890 , it works out at something like 3 deaths per over a 70+ year period

Donald Trump

Gatling wrote: »

It's been in operation since 1890 , it works out at something like 3 deaths per over a 70+ year period

Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure.







Should the outrage not be directed at the state and system that left those people in the state they were in?

riffmongous

Donald Trump wrote: »

Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure.







Should the outrage not be directed at the state and system that left those people in the state they were in?

They weren't infants though. And it seems likely the deaths were undocumented.. so you could be talking of up to 215 murders/manslaughters

Mysterypunter

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

I was shocked until I read the Catholic Church was involved. Then it’s not so shocking.

My first thought was what county is Canada in?

LLMMLL

Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.

Timberrrrrrrr

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.

And that the RCC would be involved somehow.

EmmetSpiceland

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

The church was, alledegly, involved in the Duplessis scandal in Canada as well, although they deny any involvement.

“The Duplessis Orphans were 20,000 Canadian children who were wrongly certified as mentally ill by the provincial government of Quebec and confined to psychiatric institutions in the 1940s and 1950s. The children were deliberately miscertified in order to misappropriate additional subsidies from the federal government.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplessis_Orphans?wprov=sfti1

**** me that's some evil ****

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Ah boards. Where a small group of posters will try and convince us that this is normal. Nothing to see here. Ah sure it was only an average of 3 kids a year. TOTALLY NORMAL.

If it's so normal how did I know before clicking on this thread that it was going to be black or indigenous children.

Can you not discuss the issue without mud slinging?

The user simple asked a pertinent question. You don't establish the truth without questions

LLMMLL

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Can you not discuss the issue without mud slinging?

The user simple asked a pertinent question. You don't establish the truth without questions

"Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure."

Yeah the above is just a question. Sure...

I couldn't possibly infer anything accurately about the poster's opinion from the above "question". Nope just not possible.

Cluedo Monopoly

Catherine Corless published her findings about the mass grave in Tuam nearly 7 years ago and we are still waiting for a comprehensive physical investigation. I bet anything that the Canadians won't waste any time getting to the truth. They wont wait 5 years for a report either.

Smee_Again

The Pro-Life Catholic Church strikes again.

Donald Trump

LLMMLL wrote: »

"Perhaps not exactly Auschwitz then? At least not based on a single absolute figure."

Yeah the above is just a question. Sure...

I couldn't possibly infer anything accurately about the poster's opinion from the above "question". Nope just not possible.

Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

Timberrrrrrrr

Donald Trump wrote: »

Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

Even if they all died of natural causes its still sickening that they were buried in unmarked graves and thier families not notified. How would you feel never knowing where your child was or what happened to them and now you hear this news and will be wondering if one of those bodies is your child.

highland212

That's absolutely horrendous. Those poor children. Pro CC or not, you can't excuse this. And to think the Catholic Church still has patronage over around 90% of primary schools in Ireland.

Smee_Again

Donald Trump wrote: »

Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

How many died without being documented?

Donald Trump

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Even if they all died of natural causes its still sickening that they were buried in unmarked graves and thier families not notified. How would you feel never knowing where your child was or what happened to them and now you hear this news and will be wondering if one of those bodies is your child.

Of course. But was that normal practice then? I'm not being facetious. Is that how society treated those people.


There are mass graves in a "graveyard" not to far from me here. It was attached to a workhouse which was a system administered by the then most powerful and wealthy country on the planet - Britain. A place where only the absolutely desperate would go during the bad times.


There is one cross in the field where this mass grave is. With no names on it. There might be some records somewhere of people buried in it. Most of the people buried there (or even dumped into pits there if we want to be brutally honest) probably died within a generation of that Canadian school opening.


Colonial mentality. And of course it should be investigated and truth found out about what went on over in Canada.

Donald Trump

Here ye go. An example from an Irish workhouse. 1000 people dumped into Kilkenny workhouse mass grave pits between the years 1847- 1851. Over half of them children.
https://www.rte.ie/history/famine-ireland/2021/0113/1189442-forgotten-victims-the-children-found-in-kilkenny-workhouse-grave/


If you want to judge that by today's standards then it is absolutely horrific. I am sure it was horrific at the time nonetheless, but not enough for the wealthy overlords to bury them with dignity and personal gravestones.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

Can you not understand that a single figure of a graveyard of bodies without context is useless?


In my secondary school there would have been an average of probably almost 100 students in my year over the 5 years. We started with over 100 and ended with less than 100. Two died. One either died by tragic accident or suicide (it as never made clear) and another apparently had an "asthma attack" of some sort.

If my school had had to bury them on it's grounds, and did that for every student that died then over a few decades those numbers would mount up.


So the 215 figure for me needs to be put in context. Is the issue one of possible murder as someone else implied, or is the issue one of "why were they forced there in the first place" and "why were the bodies not returned"? Were these the only children that died there or were there even more?

So if 2 died in 5 years that would average out at 40 over 100 years.

So ask the questions. Why is there 200+ instead of 40. Also if it's normal why do we only hear these stories.about marginalized groups.

But saying "hardly Auschwitz" is not exactly an attempt to elucidate the issues and get to the heart of the matter.

It's incredibly dismissive and designed to minimise what is clearly an issue.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

Here ye go. An example from an Irish workhouse. 1000 people dumped into Kilkenny workhouse mass grave pits between the years 1847- 1851. Over half of them children.
https://www.rte.ie/history/famine-ireland/2021/0113/1189442-forgotten-victims-the-children-found-in-kilkenny-workhouse-grave/


If you want to judge that by today's standards then it is absolutely horrific. I am sure it was horrific at the time nonetheless, but not enough for the wealthy overlords to bury them with dignity and personal gravestones.

Yes it's horrific. That's the point. Both are horrific. The truth of one does not minimize the other. Thank you for acknowledging that both these situations were horrific.

Donald Trump

LLMMLL wrote: »

So if 2 died in 5 years that would average out at 40 over 100 years.

So ask the questions. Why is there 200+ instead of 40. Also if it's normal why do we only hear these stories.about marginalized groups.

But saying "hardly Auschwitz" is not exactly an attempt to elucidate the issues and get to the heart of the matter.

It's incredibly dismissive and designed to minimise what is clearly an issue.

Your calculations are wrong. 2 dying for any given school year would be 200 over 100 years.

Donald Trump

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yes it's horrific. That's the point. Both are horrific. The truth of one does not minimize the other. Thank you for acknowledging that both these situations were horrific.

Those Protestants. Up to no good as usual.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

Your calculations are wrong. 2 dying for any given school year would be 200 over 100 years.

I missed the "in my year" part. Well no children died in my year. In fact no children died from my primary or secondary school in any year for all the 13 years I was in school.

Is it the norm for 2 people to die from every year over the periods people are in school?

Donald Trump

LLMMLL wrote: »

I missed the "in my year" part. Well no children died in my year. In fact no children died from my primary or secondary school in any year for all the 13 years I was in school.

Is it the norm for 2 people to die from every year over the periods people are in school?

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

Was it 200?

Smee_Again

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

But you know they died and were buried and where they were buried, these kids just disappeared or were disappeared with no paperwork, investigations or anything.

You’re not comparing like and like and it’s a very transparent attempt to deflect attention away from yet another scandal involving the Catholic Church and their complete disregard for the lives of those entrusted to their care.

Donald Trump

Smee_Again wrote: »

But you know they died and were buried and where they were buried, these kids just disappeared or were disappeared with no paperwork, investigations or anything.

You’re not comparing like and like and it’s a very transparent attempt to deflect attention away from yet another scandal involving the Catholic Church and their complete disregard for the lives of those entrusted to their care.

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

Timberrrrrrrr

Donald Trump wrote: »

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

Wow! So you're more concerned that this makes the RCC (and lets not forget the Canadian government at the time were also complicit in this) look bad than the children and thier families.

Donald Trump

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Wow! So you're more concerned that this makes the RCC (and lets not forget the Canadian government at the time were also complicit in this) look bad than the children and thier families.

Ya wha'?

You're making things up now.

LLMMLL

Donald Trump wrote: »

I've no idea. It might be high, it might be average or it might be low.


I was counting up the number of people I know who would have died before 25. When I went through it, the number was a bit shocking.

Well going by the figures I'm seeing for child deaths in Ireland, if 2 children from every school year died over the 8 years they are in primary school in every school in the country we would have an INSANE number of child deaths.

So your figure is definitely high.

As usual emotional responses and mud slinging when people try to ascertain the full facts.

Smee_Again

Donald Trump wrote: »

I just think it's despicable for people with an agenda just to be delighted when something is uncovered that can use it to make their target look bad. It doesn't matter what the details are - what matters is that they can get a sensationalist headline out of it



In reality they don't care for the victims. They are just delighted that there were victims because it serves their own agenda!


Transparent is right

I’m probably one of the few people on this thread who have worked on a First Nations Reservation so know first hand the struggles facing the First Nations so hearing this news isn’t all that surprising.

Even less surprising is how you and probably others like you will downplay the part the CC played in it and the gaslighting you’ll do to achieve that goal.

LLMMLL

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

As usual emotional responses and mud slinging when people try to ascertain the full facts.

Please present us with the relevant facts?

Do you have a comparison of death rates to enlighten us?

LLMMLL

LLMMLL wrote: »

Please present us with the relevant facts?

Do you have a comparison of death rates to enlighten us?

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

LLMMLL

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

You're already in the discussion. So shouldn't make a difference to you.

Can you provide the facts so?

Gatling

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

What's the point? Anyone that tried to enter discussion is accused of something.

I wouldn't even bother engaging.

Gatling

riffmongous wrote: »

Sick, and one of the worst things is that's what's happening in China at the moment to the Uyghurs and there's f'all we can do about

Unfortunately it's not considered cool to make noise about unlike cool things like climate change and BLM ,
How many people even mention Tiananmen Square these days ,
It's usually ah sure didn't America do this and that

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ya wha'?

You're making things up now.

In fairness, your first response has been to downplay it. This is exactly how certain individuals responded to Tuam. Downplay it, claim that it was standard practice and it was not as serious as it appears to be. Regardless of if it was a child or two dying per year, they were still being put in unmarked graves. It's also indicative of the RCC systemically doing it in more than just one country.

goose2005

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

And that the RCC would be involved somehow.

Actually about half of them were run by Protestants:

the number of schools operating at one time peaked at 80 in 1931. Of those schools, 44 were operated by Roman Catholics; 21 were operated by the Church of England / Anglican Church of Canada; 13 were operated by the United Church of Canada, and 2 were operated by Presbyterians.

Timberrrrrrrr

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually about half of them were run by Protestants:

The thread is about this particular school though

 It was opened and run by the Catholic Church until the federal government took it over in the late 1960s.

Cluedo Monopoly

More on it here.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said it was a "painful reminder" of a "shameful chapter of our country's history".

The First Nation is working with museum specialists and the coroner's office to establish the causes and timings of the deaths, which are not currently known.

Rosanne Casimir, the chief of the community in British Columbia's city of Kamloops, said the preliminary finding represented an unthinkable loss that was never documented by the school's administrators.

From about 1863 to 1998, more than 150,000 indigenous children were taken from their families and placed in these schools.

The children were often not allowed to speak their language or to practise their culture, and many were mistreated and abused.

A commission launched in 2008 to document the impacts of this system found that large numbers of indigenous children never returned to their home communities.

The landmark Truth and Reconciliation report, released in 2015, said the policy amounted to "cultural genocide".

In 2008, the Canadian government formally apologised for the system.

The Missing Children Project documents the deaths and the burial places of children who died while attending the schools. To date, more than 4,100 children who died while attending a residential school have been identified, it says.

ILoveYourVibes

Good lord so sad. RIP. I hope there is an investigation and lessons learned.

Widdensushi

Horrific, but after an initial reaction and after reading what is here I will wait a bit longer to judge this. If the majority are historic, it's possible with higher child mortality and maybe the Spanish flu that many would be explainable. Obviously there was plenty of innocents murdered by some monsters, but the amount of children v the mortality needs to be looked at rather than the headline figure.

Widdensushi

Widdensushi wrote: »

Horrific, but after an initial reaction and after reading what is here I will wait a bit longer to judge this. If the majority are historic, it's possible with higher child mortality and maybe the Spanish flu that many would be explainable. Obviously there was plenty of innocents murdered by some monsters, but the amount of children v the mortality needs to be looked at rather than the headline figure.

THeres no place for practical and logical processes in this thread. Emotional mudslinging only

riffmongous

The commission ultimately determined that at least 3,200 children died while a student at a Residential School; one in every 50 students enrolled during the program’s nearly 120-year existence. That’s a death rate comparable to the number of Canadian POWs who died in the custody of Nazi Germany during the Second World War.

But despite occasional efforts at reform, even as late as the 1940s the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.

The deadly reputations of residential schools were well-known to officials at the time. Kuper Island Residential School, located near Chemainus, B.C., saw the deaths of nearly one third of its student population in the years following its opening in 1889. “The Indians are inclined to boycott this school on account of so many deaths,” wrote a school inspector in 1922.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/newly-discovered-b-c-graves-a-grim-reminder-of-the-heartbreaking-death-toll-of-residential-schools

Cluedo Monopoly

riffmongous wrote: »

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/newly-discovered-b-c-graves-a-grim-reminder-of-the-heartbreaking-death-toll-of-residential-schools

Thanks. I don't think those that like to muddy the waters will like hard data like that even though they were supposedly looking for it.

the death rates within residential schools were up to five times higher than among Canadian children as a whole.

In comparison the death rate at the Bessborough Mother and Baby home during the 1930s and 1940s was 68%.