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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,594 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    What regulation? Why any need for it at all? Sure if either party feels there is immoral/unethical activity then don't do business with thempure and simple .

    Is not the agent an agent of the seller they are not the seller. Ie the buyer and seller in this instance are both private treaty parties (irrespective if the purchasers or seller are a company or any other legal person that is not a natural person).

    What's your next strawman - "Does that include if the agent says it's forecasting good weather for the weekend but it rains on the Saturday?"

    There are no fundamental reasons why requirements or rules around EAs and their practices should not or could not be tightened up. Doing so would ultimately help the market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Well, given the same EA went beyond his remit in dictating what engineer I could and could not hire, its safe to say this EA operates beyond the rules.

    Its a pity though we don't have a transparent process to protect the consumer from potential under handed tactics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    It really isnt misrepresentation, it's just advertising/marketing.

    Pitch it low, get people in and make them bid against each other. It's horrible, but it's certainly not illegal.

    So you do agree it's unethical behaviour from so-called professionals, but alas it isn't illegal so nothing can be done?

    This is why I posted yesterday, that it should be illegal, like it is in many other jurisdictions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    How could he possibly dictate the engineer you hired, was it in the contract of sale?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Consumer law is there to protect consumers equally. Both the seller and buyer of a property are both consumers for the purpose of this transaction.

    So what laws are there to protect buyers from underhanded tactics? Please be specific.

    Because the estate agent is exactly what their title describes. They are an agent of the seller they are not the seller. Ie the buyer and seller in this instance are both private treaty parties (irrespective if the purchasers or seller are a company or any other legal person that is not a natural person).

    In this transaction, the EA represents the vendor/seller.

    Who represents the buyer and what protections are offered to them, from the seller/vendor/EA?

    ..

    Perhaps the penny is slowly dropping.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I told him what engineer I wanted to use. He is an engineer I used before and is very thorough at his job. So much so, many estate agents don't like him because he highlights 'too many problems' and the sale falls through often enough.

    He said, "There is no way XXXX is getting into this house, he is banned from my XXXX agency" to paraphrase.

    I was shocked tbh, but I didn't push back as I wasn't too in love with the house in the first place.

    I told a few people about what the EA said, people/relatives in the construction industry and they were furious an estate agent would say such a thing.

    Then the sale falls through and mysteriously the house is sold for 30k under my agreed price mere weeks later.

    Now, if you don't think the whole thing stinks, then you are a fool.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Not sure I'd call it unethical, it's just the way it happens. But it is horrible.

    The real problem is there's not enough housing, so people compete with each other. If there was less competition, the asking price would probably be more realistic.

    When we started to first look, we started viewing prices with the asking price at the max of our budget. We soon learned to price the bidding war into the process.

    I'd be wary about the Government doing anything about it. They don't seem to be able to touch anything in housing without pushing prices up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    You are manipulating his response. There is no contract of sale who dictates a specific engineer.

    You must be related to an estate agent or you are one 🤣

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭DataDude


    I think people’s dislike for estate agents (probably because the market is so hot) is making a mountain out of molehill.

    Page 6 of the link below shows that, on average, estate agents do a pretty good job of pricing houses. When the market was falling fast, they priced too high as they couldn’t follow it down fast enough (maybe this was some evil sneaky strategy too?). When the market was stable they pretty much had the price perfect on average for about 5 years. When the market got hot, they couldn’t follow it up fast enough. When things stabilised last year, the asking prices caught up, the market has just moved away again.

    Asking prices tend to follow sale prices but with a lag (up and down), which again makes sense as in a rising market, by the time the house sells, it’s worth more than when they EA got the listing and agreed pricing with the client and vice versa in a falling market.

    Estate agents seem to anchor slightly more to longer term valuations so don’t capture the volatile short term movements immediately. That’s understandable and sensible. Theres also the slightly self fulfilling piece that when ‘everything starts going over asking’, people start looking at houses below the top end of their budget on the assumption the ones at the very top will also go over asking. Hence it makes total sense to not overshoot.

    Of all the problems out there. This definitely isn’t one of them.

    https://ww1.daft.ie/report/2024-Q2-houseprice-daftreport.pdf?d_rd=1



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,512 ✭✭✭Timing belt


    Forget about engineer let’s stick to your claim of there being a phantom bidder.

    Is it possible that this bidder did exactly the same as you and went with a different house? Or do you have even a shred of evidence to back up your claim of a phantom bidder.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Gary_dunne


    EA are 100% pricing well below market price and as has been mentioned by a few posters it's both a sales and marketing tactic but also not good for the market.

    People saying "the market sets the price" so there's no point in any asking prices at all really.

    I think an issue is around the wording, if it was "Guide price" instead of "asking price" it changes it entirely. The word asking makes it sound like that is what the seller and EA are happy to accept when realistically they want more than that.

    House in Poppintree, asking price 375k, selling price 480k.

    House in Churchtown asking price 550k, selling price 660k.

    House in Swords asking price 395, selling price 505k.

    For just 3 examples, (1st hand knowledge) all 3 EA's stated they set the "asking price" deliberately low to get more interest in the hope of a large bidding war.

    This may be their job as getting the best price for their seller but it just all seems wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Not sure I'd call it unethical, it's just the way it happens. But it is horrible.

    It is horrible, but ethical..

    Hmmm..

    The real problem is there's not enough housing, so people compete with each other. If there was less competition, the asking price would probably be more realistic.

    Look, supply is the biggest issue here, but Estate Agents don't help their reputation by engaging in dirty tricks.

    We soon learned to price the bidding war into the process.

    That is the issue really. Bidding wars are actively encouraged by EAs. If they priced the property correctly the chances of them happening are reduced.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I repeatedly told you that there is no concrete proof, but I also have no proof that there was an actual bidder either.

    Sure, the other bidder may have moved on, it can happen.

    But my issue is really about the process, the transparency or lack thereof, and very little consumer protection for the buyers.

    My experience is not unique by the way, and the snake-oil nature of the EA I was dealing with left a lot to be desired when it came to him being a so-called professional and acting as such in that capacity.

    Often when you trust your gut, you can't go wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    For just 3 examples, (1st hand knowledge) all 3 EA's stated they set the "asking price" deliberately low to get more interest in the hope of a large bidding war.

    This may be their job as getting the best price for their seller but it just all seems wrong.

    100% it is wrong.

    Check out some of my links from yesterday as to why EA engage in this under-quoting.

    Its outright manipulation of buyers and the market, especially in such a tight market such as this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,482 ✭✭✭tigger123


    We looked for a long time, in different areas, and bid on a lot of houses. The asking price doesn't matter one bit. The market will dictate what the sale agreed price is.

    I'm no fans of EAs either. But they're not the problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭DataDude


    You’re posting anecdotes, I posted the data covering all houses sold in Ireland.

    ‘Over a 12 year period the average sale price exceeded the asking price by 0.3%’

    That is pretty remarkable suggests EAs do not consistently underprice deliberately by a a large margin over long periods as some sort of underhand sales tactic. Currently in a slightly elevated market houses are selling on average 3.5% above asking. This doesn’t seem too extreme.

    The funny thing is if one 3 bed semi sold €100k over asking and the next day every EA in the area simultaneously increased the asking price of every house on their books by €100k they would be getting unbelievable abuse for opportunistic greed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    If the same level of transparency that EAs operate with was applied to a commercial tender by my former MNC it would be a termination offence. From experience you have to assume any given EA is a crook until verified otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Yes, MNCs are known to be transparent in all their dealings.

    Post edited by Dav010 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,746 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Edit: Deleted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,594 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I mainly take an interest in the market for land. So not housing, but still sold by auctioneers. Here is a recent article which mentions a farm which was for sale by auction - guided at 1.8m. It was bid up to 2.1m at the auction and withdrawn at that point by the seller. That is quite common. They deliberately and knowingly publish a guide price which is below what the sellers are actually willing to accept.

    https://archive.ph/bqHGq

    If you publish a guide price for an auction, then you should be obliged to accept a bid which is at or above that guide. It wouldn't stop people from deliberately under-valuing their guides, but it would leave them open to the risk (however minor) of them having to sell at that price.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭Montys return


    I saw these houses listed this morning for the new development in Coolock which I believe was mired in planning delays.

    40% social housing, 40% rentals under the cost rental. Just 20% of people would actually own most of there home, minus the Councils equity stake.

    Up to 475k for the privilege, all under the brand of affordable housing. I appreciate some will say we are where we are, but this does seem mad to me.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/dublin/2024/06/25/dublin-city-affordable-homes-in-coolock-priced-at-up-to-475000/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭SharkMX


    Exact same experience here. Went in way above asking on day 1. Bid was accepted by our deadline on the Friday. Spent so many sleepless nights bidding in smaller increments while the price went up way more than we paid over asking for this one anyway and we still lost out. So decided to go straight in at what we figured we would get bid up to anyway.

    The vendor got excited at such a jump and was probably afraid to lose it. Others probably decided not to match over 50k of a bid over their first bids and it worked out for us.

    We wondered if we did the right thing and many people told us we messed up. Same house across the road recently sold for much more than we bought ours for. We havent paid rent since we bought, but have paid down our mortgage, which is cheaper than if we rented.

    So I think we did the right thing in the end. We learned the process and we adapted. It worked out for us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    Same here. I read that and thought it is pure madness. It is like saying an avocado should cost 10,000 euros.

    I think there is no back garden either. You could have bought around there probably 2 years ago for below 200k. Even 200k is generous.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,557 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    How you get there dose not matter afterwards. You learned from your previous experiences and changed tactics, sometimes it works sometimes not. It like upping a bid by 10k instead of 1 or 2k.

    Buying Land at auction six months back the increments were 10k, I just kept bidding the other lad blinked and dropped to 5k increments when the auctioneer offered. The hammer nodded for me. He had more left but stopped bidding in case he showed his hand too much

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,613 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Novo Nordisk have abandoned plans for a new facility in Clondalkin, wonder if this is another victim of our planning system



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Did you miss my post commending the EA I dealt with for my current house?

    Appears you did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    More land bought Bass, the Friesens must be killing well these days!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,551 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The asking price doesn't matter one bit. The market will dictate what the sale agreed price is.

    Then EA's don't have a notion and are incompetent given they cannot accurately give a guide on what price a property will sell at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I suspect Mark thinks the EA got the guide wrong when basing it on the recent sale price of your house, and is ignoring that prices have increased, and in all probability a couple of bidders got stuck in to the two that sold after yours for 150/100k more. What you describe is a clear example of how irrelevant asking prices are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Sellers, the people who are actually paying their fees, and whom they work for, may have a different opinion on their competency.



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