Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

DataDude

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Not sure what your point is here, internet and IT issues do happen on a regular basis. When you work from home they are on you.

Just that WFH has been ongoing for 18 months and the world has kept spinning for the vast majority of serious companies. The IT "issues"/constraints are generally considered solved from what I can see, perhaps with the exception of really effective hybrid meetings (i.e. some in office, some at home), but Microsoft are already working hard to improve those solutions.

Also, once forcing people back to the office is a possibility, I'd wager the good-for-nothings who've been complaining incessantly about everything and "can't get broadband" etc. will very quickly find solutions their problems if their issues are met with "ok fine, your desk is waiting for you. see ya Monday".

On the people sharing accommodation. For sure this is a challenge - generally industry I work in people are paid well enough that it's solvable for all but the most junior employees. For those who can't secure their own private work space, I'd imagine there'll be a higher take-up of going back to the office.

Villa05

cnocbui wrote:

I stiil don't understand this over priced property meme. Did you see the photo I posted of the externally completed town houses a few pages back? They sat like that for over a decade. Around here, there was absolutely no construction of houses whatsoever, apart from two brave souls who built one offs, likely on their parents farm land.

cnocbui wrote:

There were four incomplete town houses in killaloe/Ballina that were incomplete and which I spent time considering if I should enquire about the price and have a go. They were a NAMA sale and had they been available individually, I might have given one a go. They have sat there for over a decade.

You could not sell those houses individually, would not get a mortgage, had to be sold together

Nama were notoriously slow to deal with also.

Plenty of new finished units in the town(s) for sale in 2014

Could be a great location in a WFH world

Whats the story with the new bridge they were supposed to be building across the river.

MacronvFrugals

DataDude wrote: »

Just that WFH has been ongoing for 18 months and the world has kept spinning for the vast majority of serious companies. The IT "issues"/constraints are generally considered solved from what I can see, perhaps with the exception of really effective hybrid meetings (i.e. some in office, some at home), but Microsoft are already working hard to improve those solutions.

Also, once forcing people back to the office is a possibility, I'd wager the good-for-nothings who've been complaining incessantly about everything and "can't get broadband" etc. will very quickly find solutions their problems if their issues are met with "ok fine, your desk is waiting for you. see ya Monday".

On the people sharing accommodation. For sure this is a challenge - generally industry I work in people are paid well enough that it's solvable for all but the most junior employees. For those who can't secure their own private work space, I'd imagine there'll be a higher take-up of going back to the office.

Our place is an Irish tech SME, once Covid hit the switch to full WFH was pretty much seamless as we already worked 2 days from home.

Agreed also Microsoft has made things like Teams almost perfect over the last year, i haven't had a dropout issue in 8 months.


Our most recent company update it was said feedback surveys outlined the increase in quality of life (costing the company nothing).


Going forward post Covid we'll have the option of full WFH or how ever many days you want in the office.

The result of this has been the company dropping one lease and selling the other on swanky South Dublin offices and renting a much smaller and cheaper space just for clients and a skeleton staff who want to be in the office.


We cant really compete with the bigger guys salary wise but the management have realized offering full WFH they can pay a bit lower and get the quality staff, this has reaped some great rewards for us over the last 5 months.

The office space and salary savings have been reinvested in innovation to make us ultra competitive in our sector.


We're a small shop so not really representative, but I hear from the hiring manager its never been so easy to nip staff that normally would've went to the MNCs for 20k extra salary.

Some of existing and long term staff that don't have an affinity to Dublin are looking on the belt when previously they would've just overplayed to reduce the commute.

There's definitely a big trend shift i see, whether it becomes widespread is another question.


In saying all that the middle managers have been shown up big time, they want everyone back complaining about "lack of personal touch face time".

Mic 1972

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Our place is an Irish tech SME, once Covid hit the switch to full WFH was pretty much seamless as we already worked 2 days from home.

Agreed also Microsoft has made things like Teams almost perfect over the last year, i haven't had a dropout issue in 8 months.


Our most recent company update it was said feedback surveys outlined the increase in quality of life (costing the company nothing).

Let's say, saving the company a lot of money, which may be a good reason for spinning the positive feedback ;-)

WFH permanently requires a properly equipped home office. To assume that everyone can set up an office in their bedrooms is going to put pressure on people

MacronvFrugals

If SF take another seat in DBS the metaphorical shockwave will be heard in rainy Leitrim!

This is relevant because if it happens(big if) it will only be down to housing



https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1397635965800361985?s=20

Balluba

There are 70 houses advertised on Daft.ie today in Dublin City with an asking price of minimum €2,000,000.
Does that signify a shortage or an adequate supply in that price bracket?

Amadan Dubh

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

If SF take another seat in DBS the metaphorical shockwave will be heard in rainy Leitrim!

This is relevant because if it happens(big if) it will only be down to housing



https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1397635965800361985?s=20

True, you can bet the investment managers of the investors and FF/FG heads will be thinking about the next GE with the information they garner from this election.

wassie

Balluba wrote: »

There are 70 houses advertised on Daft.ie today in Dublin City with an asking price of minimum €2,000,000.
Does that signify a shortage or an adequate supply in that price bracket?

Thats a great question. I have no idea but interested too in the answer.

The distribution on the map is worth a look also.
.

MacronvFrugals

Amadan Dubh wrote: »

True, you can bet the investment managers of the investors and FF/FG heads will be thinking about the next GE with the information they garner from this election.

Even in the leafiest of burbs the kids are becoming discontent!


Posted in the IT earlier -

I am a 28-year-old graduate architect. I live with my parents in a four-bed semi-D in Blackrock in Dublin. I house-share with my older sister (public servant, 30), her boyfriend (solicitor, 31) and my younger brother (solicitor, 25). We are all trying to save for deposits, so are attempting to live together in the house that we grew up in. No one is comfortable. We are all easy-going people, but the situation has changed our relationships, and everyone is now highly strung. My girlfriend and I recently separated, and I do not doubt that the housing situation was a factor (she was also living here). The median house price in this area is €615,000, which is around 20 times my salary. I do not really know what I am saving for – I don’t want to live in an exurban area, commuting everywhere by car and paying a mortgage for my whole life. If the State could only facilitate long-term, affordable renting in existing areas as a real option, with security of tenure, I wouldn’t mind not owning my home. I would put the extra money into a pension and would be fine later in life. It’s as if Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are so wedded to their conservative ideology of home ownership, no matter the economic or environmental price, that they reject the idea of renting (and living in apartments) as socialism. It will be their downfall. Reading about their “plans” has confirmed this. They just do not understand. They are toast.

I am quite fortunate in that I earn a large salary, but that is because my job is very antisocial and requires multiple extended business trips per year meaning it’s hard to maintain a base/home in Ireland. Due to the amount of travelling I do, I spend a lot of time in many capital cities the world over, and am well aware of how far my salary would go and the value I would get in those cities. There are a handful of cities that are as expensive as Dublin, but really not many... and the fact of the matter is that I bought a tiny property that I have no intention of living in long term, and that isn’t big enough to start a family in with my partner . . . simply because a suitable property for us would cost €600,000. I am absolutely not willing to commit to a life sentence that a mortgage on such a property would destine me to. For comparison, have a look online and see what €600k will buy you in Amsterdam or Barcelona, then ask why Dublin is so different? I feel as if someone who is as fortunate as I am to have a decent salary, should then have the opportunity to buy a correspondingly decent property to my international peers. Instead, I am completely proved out of the market and would be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of euro more than is sensible.

I don’t think the current Government grasp how dangerous this moment is politically. There is an entire generation who have nothing to lose by voting in a government who will radically overhaul the property market.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/housing-crisis-i-do-not-really-know-what-i-am-saving-for-1.4576917

jill_valentine

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Even in the leafiest of burbs the kids are becoming discontent!

Posted in the IT earlier -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/housing-crisis-i-do-not-really-know-what-i-am-saving-for-1.4576917

I know we've all been talking about this since forever, but it's quite amazing to see it laid out in terms this stark in the IT.

Beigepaint

jill_valentine wrote: »

I know we've all been talking about this since forever, but it's quite amazing to see it laid out in terms this stark in the IT.

“First they ignore you…”

cnocbui

Villa05 wrote: »

You could not sell those houses individually, would not get a mortgage, had to be sold together

Nama were notoriously slow to deal with also.

Plenty of new finished units in the town(s) for sale in 2014

Could be a great location in a WFH world

Whats the story with the new bridge they were supposed to be building across the river.

The bridge is going ahead and they have basically clear felled every single tree along the main road from Bird Hill to Ballina. That absolutely lovely dark green tunnel of trees leading into the town is totally gone. it was to me, one of the most charismatic defining features of the place. Soulless gobsh​ites. Makes me even keener to leave. Eco and aesthetic vandalism of the highest order. I can't even begin to wonder at what has been wrought in terms of loss of wildlife habitat.

All the lead in roads to the two villages have fibre to the home available, so it's a great place for WFH potentially.

combat14

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar admitted to not being aware of the loophole: “I didn’t envisage that people would be able to apply it retrospectively here and an 8pc increase for anyone is a very big increase in any one year.”

with govt housing and rental policy like this ff/fg may as well handover to SF now the way they are managing things or voters will do it for them soon enough



Rent trap: tenants face double hike in prices as freeze ends
Loophole allows €140-a-month rise on average Dublin rent bill

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/rent-trap-tenants-face-double-hike-in-prices-as-freeze-ends-40477810.html

combat14

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

If SF take another seat in DBS the metaphorical shockwave will be heard in rainy Leitrim!

This is relevant because if it happens(big if) it will only be down to housing



https://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1397635965800361985?s=20

its time voters wake ff/fg up - something has to change on housing policy super fast - time the govt wake up and smell the coffee

combat14

Housing crisis set to worsen as fire experts unable to secure insurance

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/housing-crisis-set-to-worsen-as-fire-experts-unable-to-secure-insurance-1133485.html


and the ff/fg govt's mismanagement of insurance industry comes back to haunt them


Mr Power said that without a solution “the housing problem will only get worse”. He described it as “a crisis” that will affect “housing, flats, nursing homes, and factories”.

The crisis over personal indemnity insurance is another part of the troubles facing customers of all types of insurance.

Villa05

cnocbui wrote:

The bridge is going ahead and they have basically clear felled every single tree along the main road from Bird Hill to Ballina. That absolutely lovely dark green tunnel of trees leading into the town is totally gone. it was to me, one of the most charismatic defining features of the place. Soulless gobsh​ites. Makes me even keener to leave. Eco and aesthetic vandalism of the highest order. I can't even begin to wonder at what has been wrought in terms of loss of wildlife habitat.

Provided a stunning entrance into the village looking out on to the lake. Heavenly

I'd ask how they got away with doing that, but this is Ireland, some people can do what ever they like. No accountability

JimmyVik

combat14 wrote: »

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar admitted to not being aware of the loophole: “I didn’t envisage that people would be able to apply it retrospectively here and an 8pc increase for anyone is a very big increase in any one year.”

with govt housing and rental policy like this ff/fg may as well handover to SF now the way they are managing things or voters will do it for them soon enough



Rent trap: tenants face double hike in prices as freeze ends
Loophole allows €140-a-month rise on average Dublin rent bill

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/rent-trap-tenants-face-double-hike-in-prices-as-freeze-ends-40477810.html

What a stupid article.
That calculation has been there for years. Its not a loophole. Its just following the rules for rent increases.

combat14

JimmyVik wrote: »

What a stupid article.
That calculation has been there for years. Its not a loophole. Its just following the rules for rent increases.

an 8% rent hike during a housing crisis and global pandemic with high unemployment .. lovely, will go down like a lead balloon at the moment

Ace2007

combat14 wrote: »

Housing crisis set to worsen as fire experts unable to secure insurance

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/housing-crisis-set-to-worsen-as-fire-experts-unable-to-secure-insurance-1133485.html


and the ff/fg govt's mismanagement of insurance industry comes back to haunt them


The crisis over personal indemnity insurance is another part of the troubles facing customers of all types of insurance.

You say it's the government's fault but in reality it's the judges and courts that award high settlements and force the insurance companies to pay out. It is also solicitors and those in the law profession that seek out compo cases as they know the courts will pay out.

As the courts are independents of the government - what exactly do you want them to do? If the government start telling Insurance companies what to do - they'll follow the banks and leave the industry - and then what.

JimmyVik

combat14 wrote: »

an 8% rent hike during a housing crisis and global pandemic with high unemployment .. lovely, will go down like a lead balloon at the moment

And its 100% down to rent control that they will be hiking it.
Because if they dont, some new emergency legislation gets pulled out overnight and they get stuck on the lower rent like all the good landlords got stuck a few years ago.
Once bitten ...

Ace2007

JimmyVik wrote: »

And its 100% down to rent control that they will be hiking it.
Because if they dont, some new emergency legislation gets pulled out overnight and they get stuck on the lower rent like all the good landlords got stuck a few years ago.
Once bitten ...

Yep, some landlords got screwed in the past. I know of one such case that that a tenant with a young family said they couldn't afford an increase, so landlord agreed, then the legislation came in, 5 years later, tenant still paying the same, landlord taught time to put up to market rate - and tenant start spouting the law of only 4% increases. Landlord said fine, and gave them notice on grounds of selling house.

Amadan Dubh

combat14 wrote: »

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar admitted to not being aware of the loophole: “I didn’t envisage that people would be able to apply it retrospectively here and an 8pc increase for anyone is a very big increase in any one year.”

with govt housing and rental policy like this ff/fg may as well handover to SF now the way they are managing things or voters will do it for them soon enough



Rent trap: tenants face double hike in prices as freeze ends
Loophole allows €140-a-month rise on average Dublin rent bill

https://m.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/rent-trap-tenants-face-double-hike-in-prices-as-freeze-ends-40477810.html

With no efforts made to reform income tax and PRSI, to remove USC entirely and start the higher bracket at a significantly higher rate combined with rents doubling in 10 years and no meaningful increase in salaries the chickens are coming home to roost.

As an example, a 4% RPZ rental increase each of the past few years would require the renters to earn an extra 1600 per year to cover the rent on their 1700euro rental in Dublin. Earning the median salary, right on the cusp of the higher tax bracket, you would be needing an extra 5% increase to your salary per year to keep up with the rent alone. As such, you won't have been feeling the extra 5% salary increase in your pocket which means employees needed to be increasing salaries at rates of 7% the last few years just to keep up with general inflation and at least 10% just to feel a bit of a benefit in your pocket. I don't think people have been receiving 7-10% salary increases since 2015, from what I have seen.

Inflation is now back with a bang and workers are already owed extra salaries from the last few years. Unless housing costs significantly drop, who knows where this perfect storm will hit?

Marcusm

JimmyVik wrote: »

What a stupid article.
That calculation has been there for years. Its not a loophole. Its just following the rules for rent increases.

That’s what I was wondering, it’s just a delayed reassessment rather than a guaranteed increase. The cap is still in place and has become a target rather than a cap. There are reasonable vacancies around town and, taking appraisal of two empty flats in the house next to me and a friend who is yet to receive a single inquiry about a modern apartment, I don’t think there is that much pent up demand as would support substantial increases on last year.

JohnnyChimpo

combat14 wrote: »

Tánaiste Leo Varadkar admitted to not being aware of the loophole: “I didn’t envisage that people would be able to apply it retrospectively here and an 8pc increase for anyone is a very big increase in any one year.”

From the Office of the Tánaiste: "Whoopsie-doodle"

Just lol if you believe that for a second

Jmc25

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Even in the leafiest of burbs the kids are becoming discontent!


Posted in the IT earlier -









https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/housing-crisis-i-do-not-really-know-what-i-am-saving-for-1.4576917

Now THIS is the problem for FF and FG. There are now quite a number of people from the comfortable classes on good incomes who are also affected by the housing issue. Granted, they're not "locked out" by any means, but they can't buy where they would expect to be able to buy when they look at where people in their professions/on their salaries/with the same sized gift from their parents have bought historically.

This extends all the way down the "property ladder" to use that awful term. I would consider myself and my partner to be on good incomes and have a good amount of savings in the bank, and we're not looking to buy in exclusive areas by any means. Just a 3 bed in a decent, but still very much working class area in north Dublin, similar to where we grew up.

Are we priced out of the housing market? No, we could compromise and buy on the commuter belt or further afield. But it's hard to bring ourselves to compromise when we feel we're not looking for anything extravagant in the first place.

I think it's the people quoted in that article and probably people like myself and my partner - potential FG/FF voters - that are a bigger worry to to Government than the people who are genuinely priced out of the market altogether and can't afford anything.

JohnnyChimpo

Jmc25 wrote: »

Now THIS is the problem for FF and FG. There are now quite a number of people from the comfortable classes on good incomes who are also affected by the housing issue. Granted, they're not "locked out" by any means, but they can't buy where they would expect to be able to buy when they look at where people in their professions/on their salaries/with the same sized gift from their parents have bought historically.

Also it's a double-dip, the parents themselves aren't impressed that the kids are stuck at home or renting

JDD

Jmc25 wrote: »

Now THIS is the problem for FF and FG. There are now quite a number of people from the comfortable classes on good incomes who are also affected by the housing issue. Granted, they're not "locked out" by any means, but they can't buy where they would expect to be able to buy when they look at where people in their professions/on their salaries/with the same sized gift from their parents have bought historically.

This extends all the way down the "property ladder" to use that awful term. I would consider myself and my partner to be on good incomes and have a good amount of savings in the bank, and we're not looking to buy in exclusive areas by any means. Just a 3 bed in a decent, but still very much working class area in north Dublin, similar to where we grew up.

Are we priced out of the housing market? No, we could compromise and buy on the commuter belt or further afield. But it's hard to bring ourselves to compromise when we feel we're not looking for anything extravagant in the first place.

I think it's the people quoted in that article and probably people like myself and my partner - potential FG/FF voters - that are a bigger worry to to Government than the people who are genuinely priced out of the market altogether and can't afford anything.

I completely agree with this. My parents bought in Sandymount in the 80's. My Dad was in job, in the public service, which is pretty much the exact same job that I am in now. My mum was a housewife, so no income.

My husband earns the same as I do, so we have double the spending power my father had. Now I completely understand that times change and suburbs become more exclusive and there's a lot more people, on higher incomes, chasing houses than there was in the early 80's. So I completely understood that I needed to downgrade my expectations. I knew I wasn't going to get a four bed period house like my parents did.

What i didn't expect was how far I had to downgrade my expectations. No way would I be buying even a small terraced house in Sandymount. No way would I get anything along the Dart line that wasn't over an hours commute into the city. What I could get was an ex-council house inside the M50, or a new build terraced house outside it.

Now, this sounds like first world problems, and it is. And I very much understand that I am in the very lucky position that i can actually buy a house. And I understand that a house next door to my parents is not some sort of god given right. But wow - the difference between what my father could afford on his single salary, and what myself and my husband can afford on double that is shocking.

I do think that some of the reason we have ended up in this place is years of mismanagement of housing by the government. It's not just the free market that landed us here. It has been a lack of willpower to structure our housing system in such a way that vast swathes of properties are overpriced. Why has there been a lack of willpower? Of course a proportion of it is lobbying by vested interests, and the rest is just incompetence and fear of doing anything that might rock the boat come the next election.

I am your absolute traditional right-of-centre middle class vote-in-every-election voter. And it is likely I will get over my squeamishness with SF and vote for them in the next election.

Ace2007

Jmc25 wrote: »

Now THIS is the problem for FF and FG. There are now quite a number of people from the comfortable classes on good incomes who are also affected by the housing issue. Granted, they're not "locked out" by any means, but they can't buy where they would expect to be able to buy when they look at where people in their professions/on their salaries/with the same sized gift from their parents have bought historically.

This extends all the way down the "property ladder" to use that awful term. I would consider myself and my partner to be on good incomes and have a good amount of savings in the bank, and we're not looking to buy in exclusive areas by any means. Just a 3 bed in a decent, but still very much working class area in north Dublin, similar to where we grew up.

Are we priced out of the housing market? No, we could compromise and buy on the commuter belt or further afield. But it's hard to bring ourselves to compromise when we feel we're not looking for anything extravagant in the first place.

I think it's the people quoted in that article and probably people like myself and my partner - potential FG/FF voters - that are a bigger worry to to Government than the people who are genuinely priced out of the market altogether and can't afford anything.

The article though states that he is a "28-year-old graduate architect" and "The median house price in this area is €615,000, which is around 20 times my salary" - so basically his salary is 30k a year which is a new grad salary. New Grads shouldn't really be looking to buy a house straight out of college.

He states " I don’t want to live in an exurban area, commuting everywhere by car and paying a mortgage for my whole life"

So we have a 28 year old recent graduate, whose on approx 30k a year looking and talking about houses costing 615k. He then goes on to state that he doesn't want to be paying a mortgage for his whole life.

I'm sorry but this lad is living in cloud cuckoo land. Why does the Irish times publish this crap - it's alienates a large section of their readers and instead highlights how privilege a certain cohort believe they are, i.e. buying 600k houses straight out of college.

Just a 3 bed in a decent, but still very much working class area in north Dublin, similar to where we grew up.

I put up some random houses there recently that were reasonable price and in decent locations -
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/243-carnlough-road-cabra-dublin-7/4499320

If your both on "good" incomes, with savings in bank - property like the above - any many others around should be within reach.

MacronvFrugals

Ace2007 wrote: »

I'm sorry but this lad is living in cloud cuckoo land. Why does the Irish times publish this crap - it's alienates a large section of their readers and instead highlights how privilege a certain cohort believe they are, i.e. buying 600k houses straight out of college.

.

Agreed regarding salary of 30k buying a gaf in a leafy burb.

But its the hopelessness that really got me, this cohort will lash out 100% when given the next opportunity!

Ace2007

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Agreed regarding salary of 30k buying a gaf in a leafy burb.

But its the hopelessness that really got me, this cohort will lash out 100% when given the next opportunity!

I was curious to see what is available in Blackrock - granted not much given the area - but he's what appears to be a lovely house
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/24-stradbrook-close-blackrock-county-dublin-a94r681/4503939

150k cheaper than what he was looking at.