Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

Villa05

We really need to to examine what FG mean when they say they want Ireland to be the best country to do business.

The Chivers site debacle seems particularly galling and in my opinion needs further investigation given our history and failure to close out mistakes of the past.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40727238.html

Meanwhile real business is struggling to find accomodation for workers. The economy and housing should be a symbiotic relationship, instead housing is allowed to be a parasite on the economy until they are both killed off.

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/arid-40726659.html

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065210#Comment_118065210

completely agree, this is an extremely dangerous situation for both society and the economy, its been allowed fester, even encouraged, for decades now, enough is enough, we have to sort this asap, or.....

Villa05

This company cited cost of living as a major contributing factor in choosing Shannon/limerick for their operations as did Northern trust over a decade earlier. Northern Trust are on course for 2k employees.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1022/1255232-jobs-edwards-lifesciences/

Reasnobly priced property gives us a a significant competitive advantage. Everything should be done to achieve it as we need another string to our bow now that corporation tax is under attack.

Imagine what Ireland could be if we said reasnobly priced housing was as important as corporation tax

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065504#Comment_118065504

tbh im glad we re making moves on corporation tax, as we cant keep doing this, we cant keep lumping the bulk of tax onto citizens shoulders, even though im aware we may lose financially to the current situation, i think a global move is the only way to tackle this one, but it wont be easy. i do think we urgently need to change the way we accept corporation tax though, and start utilising things such as sovereign wealth funds, which i think could be used to tackle our housing issues

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065210#Comment_118065210

They pretty much mean the sort of big business that is only interested in tax breaks. The Irish support for SMEs during Covid was mickey mouse compared to the UK's bounce-back loan system.

Covid has forced a lot of people to sit down and do the sums all at the same time. The results should surprise no-one.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065610#Comment_118065610

sme's are always on the sh1t end of the stick, our supports throughout covid, for both sme's and their employees have been nothing but atrocious, and now we re removing those supports, this is just bloody dangerous now, as most are employed within the sme sectors. its also bloody disturbing to see many sme owners viewing these supports as competition to their businesses, no theyre not, this is nuts!

Villa05

Norway's wealth fund is worth over 1 trillion, that is 4 times Ireland's public debt. Over 50% of its value is made up of actual returns. The fund was set up in the 90s

Norway was a poorer country than Ireland in the 50/60s.

There are options to run a country in the best interests of all its citizens rather than powerful small interest groups.

We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world, however much of that wealth is hoovered up by 1 sector.

Hence the title of one of its biggest sales platform is Daft

Villa05

Land hoarding on an epic scale. City centre Land acquired in 1889 and idle ever since. Dereliction and land need to be taxed

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/property/681499/proposed-sale-of-vacant-site-to-limerick-hotel-put-on-hold-as-councillors-seek-clarity.html

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065815#Comment_118065815

You can't compare Ireland wealth resource with Norway, UAE, Kuwait or Qatar. Although they all similar in it's size, but some countries got lucky with it's natural resources, Ireland didn't.

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118058519#Comment_118058519

The increase of residential construction is good new regardless, as there will be more place for people to house. If they really manage to build 27K properties next year, I guess there will be increase in sales for ordinary buyers as well.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065864#Comment_118065864

rampant in my neck of the woods, it ll be interesting to see if the new tax laws will reduce this from happening

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065875#Comment_118065875

we re not fully utilizing our resources, its possible to create such a fund here to, but theres virtually little or no will to, particularly politically

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065875#Comment_118065875

Oil/gas is not the only source of wealth. The UK had rich sources of the same and did not use the returns wisely.

Using wealth to drive up the cost of everything is a 0 sum game

Ireland has been for some time and continues to be 1 of the wealthiest nations in the world but has very little to show for it except a debt mountain we will be passing on to our children

That is poor management in anyone's book

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066208#Comment_118066208

Even UK, is not comparable to Norway public wealth. UK has 10 times less oil/gas natural resource per capita.

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066040#Comment_118066040

It's possible, but nothing close to the level of Norway gas/oil funds.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066208#Comment_118066208

we ve actually been pretty good at managing our books, particularly pre 08, again, the real debt burden is private debt, its now so bad, many younger folks simply cant get access to its creator, i.e. credit, its in fact this political and economic approach thats ultimately crippling us, i.e. a primarily credit fueled economy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066699#Comment_118066699

maybe, and maybe not, we could use our major wealth creator, i.e. mnc's, it could easily be done

Ireland Debt.jpg

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065210#Comment_118065210

While the rents seem high the return on funds is 5.8% and this is at 100%occupancy. You have to now factor in that if these apartments came for sale at the moment they would be worth another 50-60k so an investment fund allowing for a vacancy rate would leave a return of 5%. This has to cover running costs as well.

Lazy journalism, similar to a lot of what goes on with property, investment funds and rents. We are constantly getting knee jerk reactions similar to the way the opposition creates a hue and cry over the rise in rents.

Journalists are slow to hold opposition to account over such panic creating carry on. It similar to last March/April when the Opposition were on about a zero COVID strategy, we now see where this landed NZ and Australia both of which were Island nations with no land borders especially with one of the worst in class country dealing with COVID

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118066595#Comment_118066595

That's a fancy way of saying the UK had more oil and gas than Norway

UK is more than 10 times more populated than Norway.

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118067986#Comment_118067986

Exactly, single portion in Norway shared for 10 in UK. That makes a big difference.

mcsean2163

We should definitely create a sovereign wealth fund for all our debt? What?

Third most indebted country per capita. Are we meant to borrow to create a sovereign wealth fund? I don't get it.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068301#Comment_118068301

Doesn't work that way, no country that finds oil shares it out as Proportion to the population of the country.

UK could have done the same as Norway and invest the profits in a sovereign wealth fund and have a trillion.

It's a gigantic sum of money even for a country with 65 million people. They chose a different approach

hometruths

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068400#Comment_118068400

If we're borrowing to bail out businesses for whatever reason, take a long term view and build a sovereign wealth fund with the assets. We're borrowing at sub 1%, we should be able to turn a profit here.

Bailing out banks? Put the shares in the sovereign wealth fund.

Bailing out developers with NAMA? Put the assets and loans in the sovereign wealth fund.

Insurance levy? Take over the insurance business and put it in the sovereign wealth fund.

etc etc etc. Employ investment and asset managers, the best in their field and pay them well to run the fund and turn a profit. Essentially just build a giant family office/holding company for the benefit of the country.

I'm not going all PBP and saying start nationalising everything, far from it, if you can run a business without the assistance of the state, then great crack on, we need entrepreneurs like you. But if not, and you're a business thats about to go under due to bad management and excessive risk taking, don't expect a hand out, expect a takeover.

Start socialising the gains as well as the losses.

Of course people will say it's not possible, it's too complicated. That's just nonsense.

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118065517#Comment_118065517

There is no “lump of tax” on citizens shoulder if you exclude the top 10% earners.

Irish PAYE related taxes and charges are amongst the lowest in the eu for 90%.

J_1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068938#Comment_118068938

Insurance:

unprofitable mainly because of the “duty of care” and the endless milking of the legal system by the profession and all the claimants who top up their dole cheered on by low-Iq Pearse Doherty etc.

banks:

most unprofitable in Europe due to unworkable mortgage market where homes cant be repossessed. You know everyone deserves a free home. Let’s tax DOB for it.

riddle with cronyism (legal profession, public sector), socialism (highest dole, free housing) and all their cheerleaders (hundreds of charities and all their public funded largesse)

the day the troika will be back, will be the best day in my life. This country needs to be externally sorted out for good.

I have no sympathy for irish people who can’t afford a house.

you always emigrate to UK, Aus, nz, usa (most capitalist, neoliberal countries in the world) and then claim how much better life is there. Once coming back everyone is pushing this country to the left. Bloody hypocrites….

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069676#Comment_118069676

modern political and economic ideologies depict that taxation is reduced on wealth, and moved more so towards labour and consumption, this is exactly what we have now, this is one of the main reasons why we have highly dysfunctional housing markets, this is why we have high levels of dereliction, land hoarding etc etc etc. this approach to politics and economics is most common across the world, especially in the eu, hence our situation....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068400#Comment_118068400

once again, private debts are creating the bulk of our problems globally, as is the case here in ireland, we keep defaulting to a primarily credit fueled economy, which tends to move towards asset markets such as property and land, creating whats called a fire sector lead and dictated economy..... we have to stop this madness, its destroying our housing markets

Bubbaclaus

Ireland has a sovereign wealth fund FYI, just for all the comments over the last page saying we should have one.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069871#Comment_118069871

true, but we re not fully utilizing this approach, to share wealth amongst all

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068427#Comment_118068427

Yes, it works that way. Wealth is shared for population, and the higher revenue per capita, the easier to achieve revenue surplus.

top 5 countries with highest oil production per capita: Norway, Kuwait, UAT, Saudi Arabia, Qatar

top 5 countries with largest oil&gas Sovereign wealth funds: Norway, Kuwait, UAT, Saudi Arabia, Qatar

Thus it's unrealistic expectations for Ireland to have Fund like Norway.

Marius34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069824#Comment_118069824

Ireland private household debt is not that high anymore. It's the Public one that is high.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068400#Comment_118068400

In the good times yes rather than a continuous loop of overheating the economy.

Lobbying by construction/development sector has been extremely harmful to the economy repeating the mistakes of the celtic tiger. We need a mid tier housing market that is affordable, profitable and linked to people's incomes. Stock stays within this bracket and is not sold to the private market.

People can move between these markets not the houses. An affordable rents/purchase within this segment replace all subsidies to build in the private market

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/property-industry-lobby-groups-have-aggravated-the-housing-problem-1.4709288?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Feconomy%2Fproperty-industry-lobby-groups-have-aggravated-the-housing-problem-1.4709288

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118070187#Comment_118070187

Do you think it would be realistic that Ireland in all the wealth that was created in the last 30 years that we could have a wealth fund of 250billion as opposed to a debt of a similar amount.

Would it be fair to say the reason we don't, can almost entirely be down to runaway property prices.

Every year for the last 6 years we have had extra billions in unexpected revenues from corporation taxes. That could easily have been used to build adequate housing where its needed at Reasnoble cost. This benefits the companies that generated the revenue, the workers, the economy and the small business that service it all. All easily done with careful management and generating an income for the state

Instead it was all farmed out to foreign pension/investment funds with their returns tax free and in many cases leaving the country. 30% + of peoples income leaving the country in rent and policies that continually increase that figure.