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Is Ireland's justice system lenient?

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    #92
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    funnily enough, tax is still tax!

    no its not really. not in the context you're trying to say. If you get social welfare as in the case of say a Cash, then no the VAT is not the same as you are just robbing Peter to pay PAul.

    Personally i have zero issue with social welfare etc, dole, whatever, it makes it a more just society etc. So i don't really want to go there.

    But its the sort of mental gymnastics which often get shared in debates like this around prisons and crime etc. The same sort of people shouting loudest against any deterrent.


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    #93
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Well since we are speaking in hypotheticals, I'm proposing a system that would work in the way I stated. Oh and look at that, it functions.

    The end.

    ...so build more prisons and just keep sending people to jail, over and over and over.....

    ....and this would 'work'? for who?


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    #94
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    no its not really. not in the context your trying to say.

    Personally i have zero issue with social welfare etc, dole, whatever, it makes it a more just society etc.

    But its the sort of mental gymnastics which often get shared in debates like this around prisons and crime etc.

    errrr emmm, im sorry, but taxes and still taxes, we all pay them, and we all hate paying them, but.....


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...so build more prisons and just keep sending people to jail, over and over and over.....

    ....and this would 'work'? for who?

    Doesn't matter. It works.

    Have a great day.


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    #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    starkid wrote: »
    The same sort of people shouting loudest against any deterrent.

    Yeah, some people would start an argument in an empty room.

    :rolleyes:


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    #97
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Doesn't matter. It works.

    Have a great day.

    ...can you show me an example of this 'working' model, and please define what 'working' actually means?


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    #98
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...can you show me an example of this 'working' model, and please define what 'working' actually means?

    Wow, that's a lovely post. I'm going to put it right here on the fridge where everyone can see.


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    #99
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Wow, that's a lovely post. I'm going to put it right here on the fridge where everyone can see.

    ...thats good, im happy for you


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    #100
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I didn't know dole lifers paid taxes.

    LOL

    If a child buys an ice lolly they are paying tax, if you want to differentiate income tax from other taxes please state as such,
    We aren't getting value for any taxes collected, waste needs to be cut and cronyism needs to be dealt with severely , 10 year sentences, CAB seizing all assets


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    #101
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...so build more prisons and just keep sending people to jail, over and over and over.....

    ....and this would 'work'? for who?

    Until the people paying the taxes are starting to struggle financially and end up bending the rules and end up in one of the new shiny prisons. And then the beasts will roam the streets


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    #102
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ...so build more prisons and just keep sending people to jail, over and over and over.....

    ....and this would 'work'? for who?

    answer some of the points i raised?

    whats your bar like? are we talking only petty crime here? or are we including serious crimes?

    tease it out a little. how does releasing a Malcolm mcArthur work for anybody? can you answer that? You know in Norway for people like you always bang on about Norway, they have Eletronic tagging, stringent rules around free legal aid, mandatory and many meetings with government agents and police upon release. They have alot of community service as well. Go on tell us how no deterrent work? ....and this would 'work'? for who?

    and no vat on goods, isn't the same as income tax.


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    If a child buys an ice lolly they are paying tax, if you want to differentiate income tax from other taxes please state as such,
    We aren't getting value for any taxes collected, waste needs to be cut and cronyism needs to be dealt with severely , 10 year sentences, CAB seizing all assets

    Yeah I didn't realise I needed such laser precision in the posts I'm writing with a phone during a work break.

    I'll keep your suggestion in mind.

    Cheers dude.


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    #104
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    If a child buys an ice lolly they are paying tax, if you want to differentiate income tax from other taxes please state as such,
    We aren't getting value for any taxes collected, waste needs to be cut and cronyism needs to be dealt with severely , 10 year sentences, CAB seizing all assets

    .....theres wastes and inefficiencies occurring in both the public and private sectors, not an easy task with dealing with either


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    #105
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Jequ0n wrote: »
    Until the people paying the taxes are starting to struggle financially and end up bending the rules and end up in one of the new shiny prisons. And then the beasts will roam the streets

    beasts already roam the streets, some are actually extremely wealthy
    starkid wrote: »
    answer some of the points i raised?

    whats your bar like? are we talking only petty crime here? or are we including serious crimes?

    tease it out a little.

    and no vat on goods, isn't the same as income tax.

    what questions would you like answered?

    im talking all crimes

    once again, tax is still tax! yes there are distinct differences between them all, but again, taxes are still taxes!


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    #106
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yeah, some people would start an argument in an empty room.

    :rolleyes:

    the issue is he can't address points made. He like alot of his ilk put out a position. Thats fair. But they can't argue why. For whom does a killer like Malcolm McArthurs rehabilitation work for? His victims, for society? Serving 30 years for murder, imo is wrong. And the reason is simple. He's taken the life of somebody who probably had 30 more years of life in them, and their family has been torn asunder and lives every day with the crime, repeating it day in and day out. Thats not justice. And i have to pick the extreme example as the argument is often made in bad faith.


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    #107
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    the issue is he can't address points made. He like alot of his ilk put out a position. Thats fair. But they can't argue why. For whom does a killer like Malcolm McArthurs rehabilitation work for? His victims, for society?

    a serious attempt must be made to try rehabilitate all criminals, but its important to be aware, we still dont have effect treatment methods for some disorders


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    #108
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    .....theres wastes and inefficiencies occurring in both the public and private sectors, not an easy task with dealing with either

    As an example, theres been multiple cases of local authorities spending millions on projects that are never finished or not fit for purpose, no one gets reprimanded and the money is never recouped, I know it's unlikely but the removal of the job for life in the public service would and least provide some sanction for incompetence,


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    #109
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    beasts already roam the streets, some are actually extremely wealthy



    what questions would you like answered?

    im talking all crimes

    once again, tax is still tax! yes there are distinct differences between them all, but again, taxes are still taxes!

    right least i know its all crimes. Violent rapes, child murder, murder as well as the rest. Good to know. Its funny how people get so outraged at American justice when theres probably over 100-200 million or more who would take a viewpoint like yours as completely vile

    if you read my posts you'll see....lets take one. if you don't believe in long sentences...how does releasing a child murderer and rapist benefit society? and in particular their victims, who you know, are part of said society. go on so...does say a Malcolm McArthur deserve to be released after 30 years given that he took a persons right to said 30 years.


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    #110
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    a serious attempt must be made to try rehabilitate all criminals, but its important to be aware, we still dont have effect treatment methods for some disorders

    I think big asylums like they used to have might be part of the solution,


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    #111
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    As an example, theres been multiple cases of local authorities spending millions on projects that are never finished or not fit for purpose, no one gets reprimanded and the money is never recouped, I know it's unlikely but the removal of the job for life in the public service would and least provide some sanction for incompetence,

    maybe, but also maybe not, for example, theres evidence to suggest, large fines towards large institutions results in no change. if people are sacked, they will still need to be facilitated elsewhere, in either the public or private sector, failing that, it would be largely welfare. theres also incompetence and wrong doing occurring in the private sector


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    #112
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    a serious attempt must be made to try rehabilitate all criminals, but its important to be aware, we still dont have effect treatment methods for some disorders

    see you can't answer the question....your point is a type of deflection. i didn't ask that.For whom does a killer like Malcolm McArthurs rehabilitation work for? His victims, for society?

    the only person it really benefits is the perp themselves. you know the one who put another human in the ground forever.


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    #113
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    if you read my posts you'll see....lets take one. if you don't believe in long sentences...how does releasing a child murderer and rapist benefit society? and in particular their victims, who you know, are part of said society. go on so...does say a Malcolm McArthur deserve to be released after 30 years given that he took a persons right to said 30 years.

    right least i know its all crimes. Violent rapes, child murder, murder as well as the rest. Good to know. Its funny how people get so outraged at American justice when theres probably over 100-200 million or more who would take a viewpoint like yours as completely vile.

    yes, if the legal system deems that person safe to return to civilisation, that person should indeed be

    its terrible isnt, having some sort of forward thinking, that might reduce criminal outcomes, isnt it!
    RandomViewer wrote: »
    I think big asylums like they used to have might be part of the solution,

    perfect breeding ground for dysfunctional outcomes


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    #114
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    see you can't answer the question....your point is a type of deflection. i didn't ask that.For whom does a killer like Malcolm McArthurs rehabilitation work for? His victims, for society?

    if a person is successful in rehabilitation, it would hopefully work for all, including victims, but again, we do not know how to deal with some complex disorders, i.e. we do not have true successful rehabilitation programs for them, yet


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    #115
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    yes, if the legal system deems that person safe to return to civilisation, that person should indeed be

    its terrible isnt, having some sort of forward thinking, that might reduce criminal outcomes, isnt it!



    perfect breeding ground for dysfunctional outcomes

    Yes cause the legal system is always right...jesus wept.

    Ok good luck in your fantasy world that has no murder and crime...

    again we have **** all deterrents here. it would be a different argument if we did. and people like you argue against them in the same way you do prison etc.

    for me the victim and their families will always come first in violent crimes.


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    #116
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    Yes cause the legal system is always right...jesus wept.

    Ok good luck in your fantasy world that has no murder and crime...

    of course the system is not always right, whatever that even means, but we must integrate our major social systems more so, to try properly deal with these issues, in particular our health system, as many crimes are deeply health related

    fantasy? thats unusual, im not sure its possible to have a world completely free from crime, certainly not right now anyway, but maybe future generations will figure it out, some how doubt that though, so, once again, ive no clue what you re talking about?

    once again, some individuals simply dont care about consequences, i.e. you can threaten them with the death penalty if you like, even over the most petty of crimes, they simply wont care, so 'more consequences' wont work!


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    #117
    Jequ0n
    Registered Users Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    starkid wrote: »
    Yes cause the legal system is always right...jesus wept.

    for me the victim and their families will always come first in violent crimes.

    Eternal victim card? Interesting


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    #118
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    of course the system is not always right, whatever that even means, but we must integrate our major social systems more so, to try properly deal with these issues, in particular our health system, as many crimes are deeply health related

    fantasy? thats unusual, im not sure its possible to have a world completely free from crime, certainly not right now anyway, but maybe future generations will figure it out, some how doubt that though, so, once again, ive no clue what you re talking about?

    once again, some individuals simply dont care about consequences, i.e. you can threaten them with the death penalty if you like, even over the most petty of crimes, they simply wont care, so 'more consequences' wont work!

    jesus ****ing christ, you said it yourself...."yes, if the legal system deems that person safe to return to civilisation" (so remove your smugness) ....the legal system is the only moral gaurdian of our society? And if it deems it so...ergo you're implying its always correct in its judgement.

    you've indicitated you want reduced crime...and you want reduced sentencing. a fantasy land... whats your take on the other deterrents i mentioned? the ones some countries like Norway use? electronic tagging, fines, reduced legal aid, community service, more police? The world will never be free of crime of course, but its also unlikely crime is reduced. Particularly through laizzez faire and weak policies.

    But thats not the point of it for many. I accept sentencing doesn't reduce criume, i've made it clear.I only care for the victim. and i don't believe lenient justice systems and all the other stuff does right by anybody. I don't give a **** if somebody like McArthur is rehabilitated.


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    #119
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Jequ0n wrote: »
    Eternal victim card? Interesting

    christ this is the sort you're dealing with. you are genuinely warped. yeah the victim and their families have to live with the consequences for eternity in effect. read the side effects of the parents in that blowtorch case. you can sod off if you think they are playing some sort of card. that incident could have life long affects. utterly twisted thinking.


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    #120
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,842 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    starkid wrote: »
    jesus you said it yourself....yes, if the legal system deems that person safe to return to civilisation....the legal system is the only moral gaurdian of our society?

    you've indicitated you want reduced crime...and you want reduced sentencing. whats your take on the other deterrents i mentioned? the ones some countries like Norway use?

    But thats not the point of it for many. I accept sentencing doesn't reduce criume, i've made it clear.I only care for the victim

    theres a difference between an actual judgment and a moral one, in actual cases, the actual legal system regularly deems individuals safe to return to civilisation, the other judgment is simply a philosophical one, but the legal system alone is not a good one for such judgments, other critical systems, in particular the health system, is required for such decisions

    yes i want reduced crime, but not necessarily reduced sentences, again, baring mind, increased sentences dont always lead to reduced crime. can you please explain your understanding of the Norwegian system?

    its good that you care for the victim, this is a critical part of the whole process, but we must also care for the criminals, as not doing so, may in fact lead to further crimes by those individuals, highly likely in fact


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    #121
    starkid
    Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    theres a difference between an actual judgment and a moral one, in actual cases, the actual legal system regularly deems individuals safe to return to civilisation, the other judgment is simply a philosophical one, but the legal system alone is not a good one for such judgments, other critical systems, in particular the health system, is required for such decisions

    yes i want reduced crime, but not necessarily reduced sentences, again, baring mind, increased sentences dont always lead to reduced crime. can you please explain your understanding of the Norwegian system?

    its good that you care for the victim, this is a critical part of the whole process, but we must also care for the criminals, as not doing so, may in fact lead to further crimes by those individuals, highly likely in fact

    i've explained some of the system in Norway. Again you've failed to directly answer a relatively easy question. what other deterrents would you accept in this reduction of crime. Increased gardai, cctv, tagging, fines, community service...what? again the thing that pisses me off with people like yourself is that you think it can be done without any of this. Purely educational or on some fantasy long term project of changing the ****ty capitalist sytem we have. In the here and now what are you willing to accept?

    I completely disagree in many crimes and you'll never convince people like me as you can't explain why rehabilitation is needed. you haven't been able to give a real reason. i have given you my reason, you have whimsical theory and ideals. If you rob somebody of their life, which on average is 85 years, you deserve a harsher sentence than 30. You've stolen from society. You've ripped apart famalies, communties, all parts of said society. A 50 year sentance is incredinly harsh and steals from a perp, a dignified life, but tough ****. When they get out they'll be most likely too old to reoffend. Again if its the case where the perp is younger, from the worst communties with cycles of violence (has children etc), there could be mitigating circumstances. And miscarriages of justice do happen. Its not completely black and white, i can accept that. you clearly can't or at least haven't indicated you can. and until youtell me what other deterrents are acceptable to you i can't take you seriously.

    Its like the SPC and SF's disgust for it. its clear why we have it here in this tiny jurisdiction. sometimes there is necessary evils.


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