Thoughts on this folks?

thelibertyboy

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40279619.html

magicbastarder

It claimed registration and insurance for e-scooters would act as a deterrent for users who failed to obey traffic rules or who caused obstructions on footpaths

i'll tell you my thoughts when i've stopped laughing.

Mrs OBumble

I'd agree. Especially re the insurance aspect.

And I'd apply the same rules to all *powered* two-wheelers, with or without seats.

This bit is cute:
"cycling infrastructure guidelines also needed revision to provide more space for overtaking given that cyclists and e-scooter users would be sharing the same space in many areas in future."

Not only do we need cycling lanes, those lanes also need overtaking bay's! Woo hoo ....

radia

magicbastarder wrote: »

It claimed registration and insurance for e-scooters would act as a deterrent for users who failed to obey traffic rules or who caused obstructions on footpaths

i'll tell you my thoughts when i've stopped laughing.

https://www.facebook.com/BadParkingIreland/
Yes, mandatory registration and insurance will solve it, definitely.

Holiday21

100% agree re: mandatory insurance.
There should also be a fund (same as for motor vehicles) that some of the insurance goes in to to cover when someone is hit by a scooter who doesn't have insurance.
Those things are on the narrow footpath near my house when I'm walking and are going way too fast.

liamog

Sounds like the people at TII haven't got a notion of what an e-Scooter is and have mistakenly tried to develop guidelines for Electric Vespas

John_Rambo

There's plenty where I live and I honestly can't see this happening, they're very safe and pose no threat to anyone in comparison to regular large vehicles.

They're the perfect end of commute or short commute answer for people that don't want to cycle or feel bikes are to big for the bus/train.

They seem to trigger the anti-cycling brigade who suffer percieved "near misses every single day" but never actually get hit by these maniac cyclists and scooters.

Peregrine

Yes to banning them from footpaths obviously.

As for the rest.. safety advice from a state agency with the least experience and worst record when it comes to protecting vulnuerable road users. No thanks. They have no idea how to accommodate anything other than cars and trucks. If TII got the chance, they would turn urban streets into dual carriageways.

I had hoped that merging the NRA with the RPA would change that attitude somewhat but I see it's still full of dinosaurs with an understanding of road safety and climate change from the 80s.

I'm delighted that most of the roads inside the M50 were transferred from TII back to councils. They need to do the same in other cities.

liamog

I can understand banning them from pavements as it does make sense, but a tiny registration isn't going to be that useful.
The whole insurance requirement is also unnecessary, I often wonder what problem people are trying to solve, bikes don't have insurance and yet we don't see people taking others to court for personal injuries damage.

Get Real

liamog wrote: »

I can understand banning them from pavements as it does make sense, but a tiny registration isn't going to be that useful.
The whole insurance requirement is also unnecessary, I often wonder what problem people are trying to solve, bikes don't have insurance and yet we don't see people taking others to court for personal injuries damage.

That's all well and good until something happens. And the unexpected always happens somewhere. If you were hit by a bike or scooter and cracked your head and were out of work, you'd be happy enough so?

Or if I bashed into your side door and wing mirror at 30km/h? Should be insurance for pedal bikes and scooters imo, and I'm a cyclist. Even a tenner a month or something into a fund. Everyone knows where they stand then.

The dent below highlights the need for insurance, and injuries. Regardless of fault, you'd want to be covered.

liamog

Get Real wrote: »

That's all well and good until something happens. And the unexpected always happens somewhere. If you were hit by a bike or scooter and cracked your head and were out of work, you'd be happy enough so?

Or if I bashed into your side door and wing mirror at 30km/h? Should be insurance for pedal bikes and scooters imo, and I'm a cyclist. Even a tenner a month or something into a fund. Everyone knows where they stand then.

The dent below highlights the need for insurance, and injuries. Regardless of fault, you'd want to be covered.

Whether or not you as the person on the bike or scooter has insurance is entirely a you problem, I'd still be making a claim against you via a solicitor.

Insurance protects the other party, not the victim.

JayRoc

radia wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/BadParkingIreland/
Yes, mandatory registration and insurance will solve it, definitely.

The only obstructions on footpaths where I live is cars and vans parked on them. They all have mandatory registration and insurance but it hasn't stopped them.

magicbastarder

liamog wrote: »

I can understand banning them from pavements as it does make sense

as the law stands, they are already banned from the footpath. so if the gardai did want to do someone for using them on the footpath, this is already possible.

magicbastarder

Get Real wrote: »

Even a tenner a month or something into a fund.

The dent below highlights the need for insurance, and injuries. Regardless of fault, you'd want to be covered.

so a quarter what i'm paying for car insurance? that's *exceptionally* expensive compared to the potential damage which can be done.

plus, i think you alluded to it but a superficial read of the photo would suggest that the motorist was at fault anyway.

John_Rambo

It's very ill thought out. Banning them from bus lanes will push them out on to the car lane, that, along with the suggested limited speed will drive impatient motorists nuts.

radia

JayRoc wrote: »

radia wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/BadParkingIreland/
Yes, mandatory registration and insurance will solve it, definitely.

The only obstructions on footpaths where I live is cars and vans parked on them. They all have mandatory registration and insurance but it hasn't stopped them.

That was kinda my point...
Maybe I should have found a sarcasm smiley.

liamog

magicbastarder wrote: »

as the law stands, they are already banned from the footpath. so if the gardai did want to do someone for using them on the footpath, this is already possible.

In fairness, they're not legally useable on any part of a public road

magicbastarder

not by law, per se. well, they're not possible to usem but that's by omission rather than by comission.

Absolutely agree with it.

I have a pain in my hole with them flying out from all angles without a thought and in particular I'd like to punch in the face any parent who gives these to their teenage son, because they all seem to be on them these days.

I have a couple of dashcam videos of the near misses to prove it, also, if I can figure out how to upload them.

JayRoc

radia wrote: »

That was kinda my point...
Maybe I should have found a sarcasm smiley.

My bad!

CHESSMUTANT

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'd agree. Especially re the insurance aspect.

With minimal additional effort, I reckon you could get your entire ass out that window.

Tarabuses

John_Rambo wrote: »

There's plenty where I live and I honestly can't see this happening, they're very safe and pose no threat to anyone in comparison to regular large vehicles.

They're the perfect end of commute or short commute answer for people that don't want to cycle or feel bikes are to big for the bus/train.

They seem to trigger the anti-cycling brigade who suffer percieved "near misses every single day" but never actually get hit by these maniac cyclists and scooters.

We don't get hit because we jump out of the way.

TheBoyConor

liamog wrote: »

Whether or not you as the person on the bike or scooter has insurance is entirely a you problem, I'd still be making a claim against you via a solicitor.

Insurance protects the other party, not the victim.

Yes and no.

You are entitled to claim damages from someone on a bike if they neglectfully hit you with their bike for whatever reason. If it is a well paid person with plenty money, then fine. However, if it is a teenager or someone with no money, well you can't get blood from a stone so you'd be just wasting everyone's time.

I can't see how an e-scooter is more dangerous than a bicycle. And where do you draw the line with bikes? Is the small child on a bike with their parent required to have insurance? What age and set of arbitrary circumstances do you draw the line between needing and not needing insurance.

Any anyway, cyclists aren't traceable like the driver of a car is. A cyclist can knock you down and if they so wish, just ditch their bike and abscond from the scene and take a different route on a different bike with a different colour jacket for the next year or so.

Anyway, we are trying to promote active and sustainable travel, so introducing a deterred like insurance goes against the grain completely. So it is never going to happen.

Can we not just do a scheme like WEEE? Where you buy your scooter and a portion of the cost goes towards a national insurance of sorts? And if you buy one online, when it arrives in ireland, customs tack it onto whatever VAT/etc you owe?

(with WEEE the cost of recycling the item is built into the price).

magicbastarder

is anyone actually doing any research into the current use of e-scooters? e.g. what proportion of usage is for true 'last mile' transport, how many journeys of greater than 10km, etc.?

i strongly suspect they're not really displacing car journeys too much (yet), more public transport journeys, especially since the lockdowns.

if it could be shown that they're displacing car journeys, i would be very much against an insurance scheme, in that we should be promoting them rather than putting brakes on their usage.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

is anyone actually doing any research into the current use of e-scooters? e.g. what proportion of usage is for true 'last mile' transport, how many journeys of greater than 10km, etc.?

I haven't owned an electric scooter, but would I be right in assuming that if you lived inside the M50, you'd likely get to work in the city centre and back again each day?

Even if some of the inside-M50-residents started using them, that'd free up space for the likes of people who are coming from Cavan/Louth/Kildare etc. that don't have that option (can't really see them adding an E-Scooter lane to the motorway network). It's not ideal, but it'd be a big step forward.



Wonder would something like this ever take off, as part of GoCar's set up, perhaps.


https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/brand-new-211-registered-city-car-on-the-road/27433072

Wishbone Ash

TheBoyConor wrote: »

...cyclists aren't traceable like the driver of a car is. A cyclist can knock you down and if they so wish, just ditch their bike and abscond from the scene ....

That works both ways and bearing in mind that a motorist will likely do much more damage than a cyclist. Motorists aren't traceable if they run down a cyclist/pedestrian and there are no witnesses. I was hospitalised after being T-boned by a motorist who left the scene. She made a sudden right turn across my path on a descent.

bk

I think the idea that e-scooters should require registration and insurance is absolutely crazy!

I see no evidence at all that e-scooters are more dangerous or more likely to do damage then a bike and in particular an ebike. If anything ebikes being quiet heavy would more likely to do damage.

And we don't require registration and insurance for bikes/ebikes, so logically it shouldn't apply to e-scooters either.

Also I don't understand the suggestion of banning them from bus lanes. Again bikes are allowed in bus lanes, so similarly these should too.

To be clear, the reason why cars require insurance, license, registration is because of the extreme danger they pose. You basically barrelling along at 120km/h in more then a ton of steel and metal. They pose an extreme threat to peoples lives, with over 300 people a year being killed by them in Ireland alone and hundreds more seriously injured. As a result, they require careful regulation and policing.

Bikes and e-scooters by comparison pose little danger to others outside of freak accidents, and overall are actually safer then walking. And as a result don't require such careful regulation. Sure, I'd like to see improved bike and e-scooter and rules of the road lessons in school, but that is all.

donvito99

Surely more people on e-scooters etc would actually reduce insurance pay outs as it would mean fewer car journeys being made?

I suppose it is in TII's interest to make congestion worse as it justifies their budget.

magicbastarder

donvito99 wrote: »

Surely more people on e-scooters etc would actually reduce insurance pay outs as it would mean fewer car journeys being made?

that's why i was asking was there any understanding of whether scooter journeys were actually replacing car journeys; i suspect the effect is not very pronounced.

Del2005

liamog wrote: »

Sounds like the people at TII haven't got a notion of what an e-Scooter is and have mistakenly tried to develop guidelines for Electric Vespas

I've seen plenty of people using "e-scooters" that are more like a step through motorbike than a scooter. One I saw had square section tyres as wide as some cars and the rider was sitting on a seat leaving me for dead in a 60km/h zone, a neighbour has one with a seat that can do 45km/h.

bk

Del2005 wrote: »

I've seen plenty of people using "e-scooters" that are more like a step through motorbike than a scooter. One I saw had square section tyres as wide as some cars and the rider was sitting on a seat leaving me for dead in a 60km/h zone, a neighbour has one with a seat that can do 45km/h.

Under EU legislation, vehicles like this aren't considered e-scooters and are instead considered "mopeds" and fall under Category L1e-B “moped” and as such need driving license, insurance, etc. like any other moped.

The EU considers EU e-scooters to have up to 250W power, 25km/h top speed and no seat.