Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

My post was wrong, now corrected. It was not transgender male, just Male

My point is that men can kill each other, it is not solely a transgender issue

No but sports organizations are attempting to make sports safer. Allowing men to compete against women, particularly in contact sports, is a reversal of this.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

Consult a biology book. You aren't far away already though.

ILoveYourVibes

sydthebeat wrote: »

What an incredibly weird post!!!

Are you ok with men fighting women in combat sports???

I am not.

Nor am i ok with men hitting women in general. And a woman hitting a man is different.

Trans women depending on the individual could pose an issue or a danger in specialized sports to bio women.

So instead of just throwing the problem in trans women's faces why don't we come up with a solution?

I mean if you asked me would i be ok with a man fighting a woman with his legs tied together and one hand tied behind his back ..i might say yes.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people? As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

We fix it by recognising that Trans people fit within a category all of their own, separate to either biological males or biological females. They've chosen to be different.

They haven't chosen to be anything. But even if they did, should people be excluded because they are different?

Should 7foot tall men be excluded from basketball because they are different? No, of course no one would even dream of that.

But its fine to draw imaginary lines for trans?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thats fine, but then don't pretend you have any notion on this topic as you clearly can't face dealing with the complexity.

Far easier to simply say you think something is right or wrong than actually think about it I suppose

Oh boy. Wrong person to accuse of not thinking about it.
But I just will no longer engage with people who have to stroke their beard hair while staring into space and wondering bewilderedly if there really ARE any differences between male and female...

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

But more violent inmates are separated from other inmates even though they are the same gender!

Hmm, its almost if a simple divide doesn't solve all the problems

Put them in with the ladies so. Hard to know what constitutes the difference, as you say yourself.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

Consult a biology book. You aren't far away already though.

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people?.

There have been plenty of jokes in this thread.

As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

We really haven't and it would be impossible to have done i don't remember many trans people historically in sport its a modern thing. And the reason there isn't a huge push is because statistically speaking trans people don't count for much of the population.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

I am suggesting they are in bad faith.

They don't care about the well being of women in sport ...because half the people who make these arguments think adverts on tv against domestic violence are anti-man. And the same people who think a woman hitting a transwoman isn't the same as a transwoman hitting a woman...somehow think a woman hitting a man is the same as a man hitting a woman.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

No but sports organizations are attempting to make sports safer. Allowing men to compete against women, particularly in contact sports, is a reversal of this.

And those safety regulations should operate regardless. Michealla Tyson won't be getting in the ring with Katie Taylor no matter what. Doesn't matter how Tyson identified , there are criteria already in place.

ILoveYourVibes

Leroy42 wrote: »

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

I think you need to walk away from that.

You won't like the answers. Its not useful anyway.

For some women having kids having periods ..is a fundamental part of being a woman.

For some trans men or people ..having a period is obv not a fundamental part of being a woman.

trans people know their gender ..but many people don't have to update what they think about their own gender. They just have to be tolerant and sincere.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Its not a false equivalence , its literally the same nonsense being dragged up by the same groups just transferred to a different minority. Its what they do. Always keeping a new bogeyman thats coming to attack your way of life.

A tiny minority of people whos lives will never impact most peoples yet some many get riled up at the though that these people get full rights or are looked on as "normal" section of society.

Who exactly are "they"? Is that anyone who doesn't accept Transgendered people? Or are we talking about an actual minority of people who are unreasonable, but the majority of those who don't accept Transgendered people are being reasonable?

As for being the same, I don't see it that way. I grew up as a bisexual male in the 80s/90s, and have lived that way all my teen/adult life. I remember what it was like to "come out" along with the insults and violence that was directed towards homosexuals, in addition to the social stigma. So.. no.. I don't see it being the same for Trans people as it was for homosexuals. Different issues, and a much different set of reactions from society.

Again, with the riled up. Getting angry. It's a often repeated claim by those advocating trans rights. I'm not angry. Not in the slightest. I don't see this as being an emotional topic.

Its good that people have so few issues in their lives that they need to get so annoyed about trans people.......

The difference being, that in spite of the staggering low numbers of true Trans people (those who have undergone actual attempted gender change), and the larger group of people who self-ID, the Trans debate has been pushed into peoples faces. Those who advocate sought as much public attention as possible.

Let me put it this way. Pronouns and the demands that everyone apply appropriate pronouns to Transgendered people based on their desires. The demand that people accept Trans people. It was a very public movement, that sought recognition from everyone about these issues. That we would need to change our language, and half-formed beliefs on the topic, but that in many instances, refusal would result in some kind of punishment. The whole thing was pushed on to the public.

So, yeah... People have a right to be concerned about Trans issues, because this won't be the last time, that similar demands will be made. Recognition, acceptance, conform or be punished. For many people that seems like an attack on their own beliefs... and for what? A movement with serious drawbacks for the physical and psychological health of the people involved... and worse yet, the desire by many Transpeople (and their supporters) to extend it to children. Damn right people should be concerned about all of this.

Leroy42

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I think you need to walk away from that.

You won't like the answers. Its not useful anyway.

For some women having kids having periods ..is a fundamental part of being a woman.

For some trans men or people ..having a period is obv not a fundamental part of being a woman.

trans people know their gender ..but many people don't have to update what they think about their own gender. They just have to be tolerant and sincere.

Its not about examination of ones own gender, its understanding that simple gender understanding based on genitalia, reproduction, periods etc is no longer sufficient.

For the vast majority it is never an issue, the current gender classification is perfectly fine. Transgender athletes are an example of where is does create an issue.

My issue is with people proffering their opinion yet unwilling to take the time to examine the basis if that opinion.

If one cannot define what a male or female is, then how can we say what should or shouldn't be allowed in a sport?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Biology books are based on our traditional understandings. Mainly based on sex. But we now have the knowledge and ability to adapt from that.

So we need to update our thinking.

What to do think is the defining nature of male and female?

No we don't. Sex is part of the natural world, outside of human construction. All our knowledge cements the 'traditional' understandings on sex, which are also the modern understandings outside of extreme fringe thinkers who are simply incorrect.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

No we don't. Sex is part of the natural world, outside of human construction. All our knowledge cements the 'traditional' understandings on sex, which are also the modern understandings outside of extreme fringe thinkers who are simply incorrect.

People are never going to agree on a single definition of gender and sex.

is_that_so

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

People are never going to agree on a single definition of gender and sex.

Biologically we can, as a form of human identity it's a battleground for some.

ILoveYourVibes

Deleted User wrote: »

the Trans debate has been pushed into peoples faces. .

Very true. But I actually find its the transphobes who push it in to people's faces.

They seem to be the aggressive ones. The LGBT people always seem less aggressive.

ILoveYourVibes

is_that_so wrote: »

Biologically we can, as a form of human identity it's a battleground for some.

I suppose you are right.

tea and coffee

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As opposed to someone who doesn't agree with this trans nonsense, and is simply standing by his beliefs. There was a time when we considered such behavior admirable in people.

I find it interesting the way people have automatically assumed acceptance of trans issues, in spite of all the arguments against the whole movement. Better yet, projecting the belief that anyone who doesn't accept Trans and pronouns must be terribly unreasonable.

It's more nuanced than that. Yes that person is e titled to believe trans is nonsense, but its still just polite to refer to Jenner as a she. It's politeness rather than PC on that one.
There are lots of people who would happily accept Jenner as a trans women and yet have major difficulties with trans woman in women's sport, in women's prisons, the move to change women's space to non gender specific space and the twaw mantra etc

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

They haven't chosen to be anything. But even if they did, should people be excluded because they are different?

Should 7foot tall men be excluded from basketball because they are different? No, of course no one would even dream of that.

But its fine to draw imaginary lines for trans?

Actually, they have chosen. They might have chosen to have surgical procedures, or chose to take drug treatments to change their bodies. They chose to become a man or a woman (I'm not agreeing with the claim that they are). But the vast majority of trans people did make a choice. (True enough, some didn't. An extreme extreme minority of the whole.. and society doesn't need to conform for such a small number).

And we get more false equivalences.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

People are never going to agree on a single definition of gender and sex.

There are agreed definitions re sex. If there aren't, how do we identify human remains that have been outdoors for an extended period of time?

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

No we don't. Sex is part of the natural world, outside of human construction. All our knowledge cements the 'traditional' understandings on sex, which are also the modern understandings outside of extreme fringe thinkers who are simply incorrect.

Seahorses? When gender is based in physical then it is fairly straightforward. The issue now is that gender also appears to be mental as well, hence those born male mentally are female.

It completely throws out our traditional understanding

suicide_circus

Hhhhh wrote: »

There are agreed definitions re sex. If there aren't, how do we identify human remains that have been outdoors for an extended period of time?

It's hilarious

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is pretty much an admission.

It is a well known tactic used in political campaigns to force people into a place where they are having to deny something. That is the tactic you are using by claiming hate motivates peoples opinions on these issues. I was pointing out your debate tactic. Your conclusion was wholly inaccurate.

tea and coffee

tea and coffee wrote: »

It's more nuanced than that.

That's come up a lot on this thread. It's more nuanced. It's a complex topic.

It's not that complicated, nor are there that many nuances to consider.

Yes that person is e titled to believe trans is nonsense, but its still just polite to refer to Jenner as a she. It's politeness rather than PC on that one.

As opposed to the politeness of respecting the other persons beliefs and not forcing them to use such pronouns? You don't see the irony of your comment?

There are lots of people who would happily accept Jenner as a trans women and yet have major difficulties with trans woman in women's sport, in women's prisons, the move to change women's space to non gender specific space and the twaw mantra etc

Sure there are. There's lots of people with all manner of opinions. Not sure what your point is.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

There are agreed definitions re sex. If there aren't, how do we identify human remains that have been outdoors for an extended period of time?

How is this relevant?
:rolleyes:

Does everyone agree with that? Do transpeople agree with that?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely not. Gosh you are a spinner.
It is perfectly normal for some people to identify as the opposite sex. That is how they feel..
But - contrary to what TRAs claim -
Transgender people are not literally the opposite sex.
Self ID does not entitle anyone to enter opposite sex spaces such as sport, refuges, jail, intimate venues.
Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

Where is your evidence that puberty blockers cause infertility, impotence and irreversible damage?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

This is pretty much an admission.

The flip side is that you hate anyone who doesn't accept Transgender people completely. Not disagree. Hate.

It's a ridiculous claim to make. People have opinions, and beliefs. Disagreement doesn't equate to hate, fear, or disgust.

ILoveYourVibes

tritriagain wrote: »

I'd really love to know how you added came to that conclusion from what was posted. Amazing arrogance in your own self righteous beliefs

This person stated that people who are ACTIVELY campaigning against transpeople in different walks of life , should never have to state they are not transphobes.

Implying people in this thread who have called people 'clownfish' or misgendered Caitlyn Jenner cannot be suspected of being transphobes. They cannot be called transphobes.

It's practically suggesting that transphobes do not exist.

If you want to actively campaign against the rights of transpeople YES i think you should have to prove you don't hate transpeople or THE LEAST you could do is say ' I don't hate transpeople'.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Who exactly are "they"?

Conservative groups and people with vested interests making money off these issues (grifters is a good catch all for them)

Again, they need to always have a bogeyman. Take Ireland and 3 referendums. Divorce was going to bring down society, then marriage equality was and then abortion.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that anyone who doesn't accept Transgendered people? Or are we talking about an actual minority of people who are unreasonable, but the majority of those who don't accept Transgendered people are being reasonable?

As for being the same, I don't see it that way. I grew up as a bisexual male in the 80s/90s, and have lived that way all my teen/adult life. I remember what it was like to "come out" along with the insults and violence that was directed towards homosexuals, in addition to the social stigma. So.. no.. I don't see it being the same for Trans people as it was for homosexuals. Different issues, and a much different set of reactions from society.

Again, with the riled up. Getting angry. It's a often repeated claim by those advocating trans rights. I'm not angry. Not in the slightest. I don't see this as being an emotional topic.

You dont think trans people suffer with insults, violence and social stigma?

Deleted User wrote: »

The difference being, that in spite of the staggering low numbers of true Trans people (those who have undergone actual attempted gender change), and the larger group of people who self-ID, the Trans debate has been pushed into peoples faces. Those who advocate sought as much public attention as possible.

Let me put it this way. Pronouns and the demands that everyone apply appropriate pronouns to Transgendered people based on their desires. The demand that people accept Trans people. It was a very public movement, that sought recognition from everyone about these issues. That we would need to change our language, and half-formed beliefs on the topic, but that in many instances, refusal would result in some kind of punishment. The whole thing was pushed on to the public.

So, yeah... People have a right to be concerned about Trans issues, because this won't be the last time, that similar demands will be made. Recognition, acceptance, conform or be punished. For many people that seems like an attack on their own beliefs... and for what? A movement with serious drawbacks for the physical and psychological health of the people involved... and worse yet, the desire by many Transpeople (and their supporters) to extend it to children. Damn right people should be concerned about all of this.

In what way is it being pushed in peoples faces? Every aspect of human life is on peoples phones, computers and tvs now in a way that it never was before. There being more exposure to trans issues is a result of there being more exposure to every aspect of life, but when you focus on one thing (trans people) you see it more. Its the very same as something like looking as or getting a new car. You suddenly notice that type of car everywhere. There wasnt a sudden injection of those cars, you just didnt notice them before.

Its a minor impact on peoples lives being completely blown up

BTW , the exact same stuff about being gay was being "shoved in peoples faces" only a few years ago and no shortage of it around the marriage equality referendum. Your whole post is back up of the trans fearmongering being the very same as it was about gay people previously.


I guarantee you that when trans people become an accepted part of society to the way gay people are there will be another group thrust up as the downfall of society. its as predictable as people falling for it.

DeadHand

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So instead of just throwing the problem in trans women's faces why don't we come up with a solution?)

The solution is simple and was in place since the foundation of organised sport: segregate sports requiring significant physicality on the basis of biological sex.

A transwoman should not be allowed to compete with women on the basis of the drastic physical advantages their fundamentally male physiological gives them in that contest. This is no more hateful or problematic than suggesting formal physical competition between 30 and 10 year olds be disallowed.

Female athletes have already been injured and had their events unfairly dominated by biological males who were allowed to compete with them.

This is not about excluding trans people from competitive sport entirely. No reasonable person could have a problem with trans athletes competing with the members of the same biological sex they went through puberty as, competing with anyone in contests where physicality is not decisive or competing amongst themselves.

It’s an Emperor’s new clothes type situation whereby every rational adult with a basic understanding of competitive sport knows the situation is grotesquely unfair and dangerous but most are intimidated into silence by the prevailing dogma of the day.

Jenner deserves massive credit for taking a brave stand here.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Rubbish.

A gay person's identity requires no participation on my part. A trans person's identity requires that i affirm their identity through words or actions.

Exactly. Spot on.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

It is a well known tactic used in political campaigns to force people into a place where they are having to deny something. That is the tactic you are using by claiming hate motivates peoples opinions on these issues. I was pointing out your debate tactic. Your conclusion was wholly inaccurate.

Are you a transphobe?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people? As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

We fix it by recognising that Trans people fit within a category all of their own, separate to either biological males or biological females. They've chosen to be different.

People dont "become" trans and havent "chosen" to be trans. Trans people are trans.

gmisk

Annasopra wrote: »

People dont "become" trans and havent "chosen" to be trans. Trans people are trans.

Exactly, any more than gay people choose to be gay.
Being trans is not an easy road for the vast majority they deserve support and understanding imo

EddieN75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It takes no effort to refer to someone by the pronouns they wish to be referred to. Like it takes far more effort to be a knob about it.

There’s a huge amount of complexity in this topic, but some poster going ‘he’s right!’ is just the sort of post you’d expect lots of likes from the usual suspects - the angry men who think everything is gone soft these days, this wouldn’t happen in Russia, and that their rights as an angry man who spends far too much time being angry on the internet is somehow being impinged upon by ‘liberals’, ‘cancel culture’, and ‘socialists’.

Ironically enough, well-rounded and masculine men don’t get angry about trans people having rights, or women speaking up etc. They also realise there’s human empathy and complexity involved. Not ‘world gone mad, so angry’. It’s the real dweebish online sorts who get really angry about this stuff.

You made a comment on the first page and referred to people as a bunch of travellers. You used the term in a derogatory way too.
Pontificating and preaching down to people about respecting on one hand while making insulting comments regarding the travelling community on the other.
I see you

Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Are you a transphobe?

I am not playing your silly game.

Guy:Incognito

suicide_circus wrote: »

Rubbish.

A gay person's identity requires no participation on my part. A trans person's identity requires that i affirm their identity through words or actions.

In what way?
Do you not affirm a womans identity by calling them Ms/Mrs? Or a mans by calling them Mr? do you use he or she to refer to men and women , gay or straight?

How is using the correct pronouns for a trans person any different?

Annasopra

Leroy42 wrote: »

But more violent inmates are separated from other inmates even though they are the same gender!

Hmm, its almost if a simple divide doesn't solve all the problems

Yep

In every case where there were trans women prisoners in Ireland they were kept separate but yet again noone ever gives a s h i t about female prisoners safety from Cis male staff or other female prisoners until the trans "debate" comes up. The whole prison discussion is complete nonsense. Its complete faux concern. Where it has come up in Ireland it has been risk assessed and the risks have been addressed.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Seahorses? When gender is based in physical then it is fairly straightforward. The issue now is that gender also appears to be mental as well, hence those born male mentally are female.

It completely throws out our traditional understanding

We are talking of sex. As it pertains to humans there are two. What have Seahorses got to do with it?

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

I am not playing your silly game.[/QUOTE]


Its called honesty.

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We are deep into the doodoo alteady, so early in the thread. So tricky to tell those assigned female at birth from the clownfish...

Yeah exactly you cant even have a civil respectful duscussion that you have to compare trans women to clownfish. Says a lot.

Kermit.de.frog

Two wonderful female athletes competing in cycling. Unfortunately for them these days their fate is decided before the race starts in the interest of so-called 'equality' which is a total oxymoron of what actually happens.

Funny thing is put Rachel McKinnon, pictured victorious, in a males race and he/she would not be within an arses roar of ever winning anything.

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

People dont "become" trans and havent "chosen" to be trans. Trans people are trans.

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

ILoveYourVibes

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's wrong, unfair and a distortion of what sport is suppose to be.

Yes we are aware of the problem.

Now what is the solution that is fair to all?

Annasopra

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually, they have chosen. They might have chosen to have surgical procedures, or chose to take drug treatments to change their bodies. They chose to become a man or a woman (I'm not agreeing with the claim that they are). But the vast majority of trans people did make a choice. (True enough, some didn't. An extreme extreme minority of the whole.. and society doesn't need to conform for such a small number).

And we get more false equivalences.

No. Being trans is not a choice.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Conservative groups and people with vested interests making money off these issues (grifters is a good catch all for them)

Again, they need to always have a bogeyman. Take Ireland and 3 referendums. Divorce was going to bring down society, then marriage equality was and then abortion.

Grand. Such groups and their followers represent a seriously small group of people. Are you making the claim that anyone who disagrees with the Trans advocates or Trans issues is a member of these groups you describe above?

You dont think trans people suffer with insults, violence and social stigma?

As has been said many times, it's a nuanced topic. Just because Trans people experience such things, doesn't mean that it's the same as what homosexuals experienced.

It's a different situation. Hence a false equivalence. (And no, I'm not seeking to downplay their experiences)

BTW , the exact same stuff about being gay was being "shoved in peoples faces" only a few years ago and no shortage of it around the marriage equality referendum. Your whole post is back up of the trans fearmongering being the very same as it was about gay people previously.

Ahh yes, because homosexuality was a completely new phenomenon for society to see and understand...

You really do like laying accusations at posters, don't you?

I guarantee you that when trans people become an accepted part of society to the way gay people are there will be another group thrust up as the downfall of society. its as predictable as people falling for it.

Ohhh guarantees. Lovely. here's mine.

I guarantee that when it is shown that Transgender procedures cause serious long-term damage (physically, and psychologically), to both adults and teenagers, along with a range of damaging issues for society in general, you won't admit that you were mistaken, and will simply move on to another crusade to champion.

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

We are talking of sex. As it pertains to humans there are two. What have Seahorses got to do with it?

We are talking about gender. How it pertains to humans is evolving as our knowledge and understanding increases.

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

There is a whole spectrum of trans people. Some have gender dysphoria. Some do not. Some are homosexual. Some are heterosexual. Some experience gender expression as a sexual enjoyment. Some do not. Some are constantly trans, some are fluid. Some choose trans expression. Some detransition. The idea that all transgender people are simply born trans is uneducated.

That is possibly true. I can't say ...i really don't know enough about transpeople.

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh yes, because homosexuality was a completely new phenomenon for society to see and understand...
.

You think theres only been trans people for a few years, dont you?

Annasopra

Annasopra wrote: »

Yeah exactly you cant even have a civil respectful duscussion that you have to compare trans women to clownfish. Says a lot.

I have been a long time in this debate elsewhere. Clownfish is a well known trope or meme in the debate. It does not refer to male or female humans. I was not using it in that way but rather referencing the meme.
It refers to the argument put forward that because clownfish (or slugs or whatever) can change sex therefore humans can. It is intellectually a stupid argument to use for a sexually dimorphic species. I was using the word clownfish to refer in a summarising way to this tired old argument.