Caitlyn Jenner's statement on trans girls in girls' sports (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Shield

It will be interesting to see how Caitlyn Jenner's statement from yesterday is received and if the 'fairness' discussion can be had now that the world's most famous transgender woman has given her opinion.

TMZ did a quick interview below and she said on camera: "This is a question of fairness. That's why I oppose biological boys who are trans competing in girls' sports in school. It just isn't fair and we have to protect girls' sports in our schools."

Source


Mod Note

Everyone using this thread would do well to read this and abide by it: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/show...&postcount=180

The following are strictly prohibited in this thread:

-Any advocation, either open or implicit of violence against trans people
-Any statement that asserts or implies that transgenderism is a mental illness.
-Any use of transphobic language
-Misgendering or deadnaming trans people
-Stating or implying that trans people are mutilating themselves

carq

If there is consistency in the twitter mobs logic then i expect them to be calling Jenner a transphobe.

But that may be giving them too much credit to be consistant

Lol. This will be interesting.

Guy:Incognito

Republican, running for political office as a republican, says things republicans want to hear? I'm shocked.

Mecrab

Biological males are just to big, strong and aggressive for females. For contact sports like fighting it's straight up dangerous to allow MtF trans people compete against females

Guy:Incognito

Nozebleed wrote: »

not republican

Did she stop being a Republican just for this?

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Did she stop being a Republican just for this?

Saying that transwomen in female sports is unfair isn't a 'Republican' thing to say. Many left wing people and centrists feel the exact same way.

PsychoPete

Mecrab wrote: »

Biological males are just to big, strong and aggressive for females. For contact sports like fighting it's straight up dangerous to allow MtF trans people compete against females

Was there a male transgender mma fighter that broken a female fighters skull?

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Republican, running for political office as a republican, says things republicans want to hear? I'm shocked.

That attempt at spin is a tad weak when trying to compete with the fact of Time's hugely famous transgender Woman of the Year telling the whole world the blindingly obvious and self evident truth that most sensible people have known forever about biological males in girls and womens sport.
There are going to be tantrums and tears. Brace yourself

Hercule Poirot

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

It's about time a high profile trans person came out and stated, what to most rational people is, the obvious truth

It is extremely dangerous to allow biologically born males to compete against biologically born females in high contact sports like wrestling, boxing, judo, etc.

That's not a sexist, transphobic thing to say, it's common bloody sense

Society seems so intent on what may or may not be offensive that we've lost track of what logically, rationally should/should not be allowed to happen

Likewise it is hugely dangerous to transfer males to the female estate. California recently moved 261 self ID trans prisoners to the women's prisons. It is also not inreasonable or hateful to call this out as wrong.

Personally I hope she wins. Having a transwomen in such a position, particularly a sane one, would be a fantastic step forward, her being a Republican would also make it hilarious. Any time a progressive criticizes her she could throw out the transphobe insult.

ILoveYourVibes

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

It's about time a high profile trans person came out and stated, what to most rational people is, the obvious truth

It is extremely dangerous to allow biologically born males to compete against biologically born females in high contact sports like wrestling, boxing, judo, etc.

That's not a sexist, transphobic thing to say, it's common bloody sense

Society seems so intent on what may or may not be offensive that we've lost track of what logically, rationally should/should not be allowed to happen

Part of the issue is ..trans people are attacked a lot. Even in this thread a lot of comments are in bad faith.

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As opposed to someone who doesn't agree with this trans nonsense, and is simply standing by his beliefs. There was a time when we considered such behavior admirable in people.

I find it interesting the way people have automatically assumed acceptance of trans issues, in spite of all the arguments against the whole movement. Better yet, projecting the belief that anyone who doesn't accept Trans and pronouns must be terribly unreasonable.

The current spate of anti trans stuff is the same regurgitated anti gay stuff from the 80's . Its not original. Its the same stuff used by the same groups to scare people to thinking black people were a threat to their way of life before that. Preying on the same prejudices to whip people up generation after generation and the people keep lapping it up.

The red scare/ the blacks/ the gays/ the satanic panic/the trans people. Once they've wrung every bit of fear from it they'll move on to something else and you'll be telling us how you're being oppressed by that group for not bowing to their demands to have everything in society just for them even though it never happened.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

<Snip>

It takes no effort to refer to someone by the pronouns they wish to be referred to. Like it takes far more effort to be a knob about it.

There’s a huge amount of complexity in this topic, but some poster going ‘he’s right!’ is just the sort of post you’d expect lots of likes from the usual suspects - the angry men who think everything is gone soft these days, this wouldn’t happen in Russia, and that their rights as an angry man who spends far too much time being angry on the internet is somehow being impinged upon by ‘liberals’, ‘cancel culture’, and ‘socialists’.

Ironically enough, well-rounded and masculine men don’t get angry about trans people having rights, or women speaking up etc. They also realise there’s human empathy and complexity involved. Not ‘world gone mad, so angry’. It’s the real dweebish online sorts who get really angry about this stuff.

The Inbetween is mine

Hhhhh wrote: »

Personally I hope she wins. Having a transwomen in such a position, particularly a sane one, would be a fantastic step forward, her being a Republican would also make it hilarious. Any time a progressive criticizes her she could throw out the transphobe insult.

Whatever we can accuse Ms Jenner of being ...sane definitely isn't one.

dalyboy

The the contest begin.

On the left corner ..... the deranged Twitter mob

On the right corner ..... the moderate conservative majority view

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The current spate of anti trans stuff is the same regurgitated anti gay stuff from the 80's . Its not original. Its the same stuff used by the same groups to scare people to thinking black people were a threat to their way of life before that. Preying on the same prejudices to whip people up generation after generation and the people keep lapping it up.

The red scare/ the blacks/ the gays/ the satanic panic/the trans people. Once they've wrung every bit of fear from it they'll move on to something else and you'll be telling us how you're being oppressed by that group for not bowing to their demands to have everything in society just for them even though it never happened.

No. It is not. There are loads of gay people pushing back against the so called trans activism. This lame attempt to align perfectly reasonable repudiation of completely illogical extreme ideology with gay bashing is shallow and false.

Nozebleed

its obvious people would vote for C.J on the basis of their vicitm status..

Leroy42

PsychoPete wrote: »

Was there a male transgender mma fighter that broken a female fighters skull?

Wasn't there a male mma fighter than killed another male? And boxing?

Should sports only be played between perfectly matched individuals?

Seems unfair that other sprinters had to race against Bolt when clearly he was faster than them.

Is it fair that taller basketball players are clearly at an advantage? Should we do something about that?

Its perfectly reasonable to have safety concerns, but there are weight classes and levels to deal with that already.

The reality is none of the above are issues, until transgender is involved and then suddenly people are close concerned about fairness.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The current spate of anti trans stuff is the same regurgitated anti gay stuff from the 80's . Its not original. Its the same stuff used by the same groups to scare people to thinking black people were a threat to their way of life before that. Preying on the same prejudices to whip people up generation after generation and the people keep lapping it up.

The red scare/ the blacks/ the gays/ the satanic panic/the trans people. Once they've wrung every bit of fear from it they'll move on to something else and you'll be telling us how you're being oppressed by that group for not bowing to their demands to have everything in society just for them even though it never happened.

How is thinking that males competing with females in sports, or having males in prison with women is anything like the anti-gay stuff in the 80's.

Do you think we should have mixed prisons i.e. Male and female prisoners being housed together in the same buildings and freely mixing?

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No. It is not. There are loads of gay people pushing back against the so called trans activism. This lame attempt to align perfectly reasonable repudiation of completely illogical extreme ideology with gay bashing is shallow and false.

Being trans is a "completely illogical extreme ideology"?

Define "loads". There were gay people voting against the marriage equality referendum. Doesnt prove anything.


And "gay bashing " isn't what the discussion is about. Its about campaigns telling parents "the gays" would be coming for their kids and turning them all gay. For it being illegal to be gay and campaigns to scare people in to supporting it to stay illegal. Limiting gays rights etc. Boiling the 80's down to "gay bashing" is disingenuous at best.

Leroy42

dalyboy wrote: »

The the contest begin.

On the left corner ..... the deranged Twitter mob

On the right corner ..... the moderate conservative majority view

Haha, I love how you see one side is deranged but the other moderate and the majority.

Biased much?

Calahonda52

Shield wrote: »

.. now that the world's most famous transgender woman has given her opinion. ...

Who said this about who?

ILoveYourVibes

Pointing out extreme cases or issues in life where trans people present us with a challenge and questions is being used as an excuse to dismiss and abuse or exclude them entirely ..and its certainly being used to talk about them in a childish and less than nuance way.

I don't hear lets find a solution to this challenge. I hear ...look lets laugh at trans people

Having said that there are many physiological differences between bio women and trans women that a lot of people ..the heart structure and the way it behaves ...bones ..bone density ...

I was thinking though we might take a look at the special Olympics and see how they do things. You often get people who are VERY physically different competing against each other. It would be interesting to see how they manage to arrange that safely.

Ok so there is a problem ...its unfair ....so how do we fix it? While keeping it fair for bio women too?

ILoveYourVibes

dalyboy wrote: »

The the contest begin.

On the left corner ..... the deranged Twitter mob

On the right corner ..... the moderate conservative majority view

Are you talking directly to this specific issue about sports?

Or are you using the sports issue to talk directly about trans people in every walk of life?

I would like that cleared up.

I dont think its possible to discuss the sports issue if what you really want to talk about is the other issue. If that is the case we should really stop the conversation.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wasn't there a male transgender mma fighter than killed another male? And boxing?

Should sports only be played between perfectly matched individuals?

Seems unfair that other sprinters had to race against Bolt when clearly he was faster than them.

Is it fair that taller basketball players are clearly at an advantage? Should we do something about that?

Its perfectly reasonable to have safety concerns, but there are weight classes and levels to deal with that already.

The reality is none of the above are issues, until transgender is involved and then suddenly people are close concerned about fairness.

Ye because they are male, and have on average inherent biological advantages over females. Sport is going down the road of attempting to make things as safe as possible, rugby recently having a spate of rule changes as an example
Allowing men to compete with women takes us drastically back in the other direction.

You'd have to wonder if someone who things men competing with women, particularly at competitive levels, has any interest in sport at all, or ever played one at any reasonable level!

Buddy Bubs

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It takes no effort to refer to someone by the pronouns they wish to be referred to. Like it takes far more effort to be a knob about it.

There’s a huge amount of complexity in this topic, but some poster going ‘he’s right!’ is just the sort of post you’d expect lots of likes from the usual suspects - the angry men who think everything is gone soft these days, this wouldn’t happen in Russia, and that their rights as an angry man who spends far too much time being angry on the internet is somehow being impinged upon by ‘liberals’, ‘cancel culture’, and ‘socialists’.

Ironically enough, well-rounded and masculine men don’t get angry about trans people having rights, or women speaking up etc. They also realise there’s human empathy and complexity involved. Not ‘world gone mad, so angry’. It’s the real dweebish online sorts who get really angry about this stuff.

That's a very sexist post about men there. Not that I care, just calling out the inconsistencies of it all.
Calling masculinity into question to belittle them to try win an argument is weak.
To be honest it's the exact same as calling all women who agree with it big butch lesbians to counter their argument.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Being trans is a "completely illogical extreme ideology"?

Absolutely not. Gosh you are a spinner.
It is perfectly normal for some people to identify as the opposite sex. That is how they feel..
But - contrary to what TRAs claim -
Transgender people are not literally the opposite sex.
Self ID does not entitle anyone to enter opposite sex spaces such as sport, refuges, jail, intimate venues.
Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

How is thinking that males competing with females in sports, or having males in prison with women is anything like the anti-gay stuff in the 80's.

Do you think we should have mixed prisons i.e. Male and female prisoners being housed together in the same buildings and freely mixing?

Using extreme situations in life and applying it as having to do with the average trans person is very much the 80s.

Guy:Incognito

Hhhhh wrote: »

's.

Do you think we should have mixed prisons i.e. Male and female prisoners being housed together in the same buildings and freely mixing?

I don't know enough about it to decide I'm right and make a blanket statement on the issue. I'll leave that up to the people that do. I don't decide policy and I've never been inside a prison.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The current spate of anti trans stuff is the same regurgitated anti gay stuff from the 80's . Its not original. Its the same stuff used by the same groups to scare people to thinking black people were a threat to their way of life before that. Preying on the same prejudices to whip people up generation after generation and the people keep lapping it up.

The red scare/ the blacks/ the gays/ the satanic panic/the trans people. Once they've wrung every bit of fear from it they'll move on to something else and you'll be telling us how you're being oppressed by that group for not bowing to their demands to have everything in society just for them even though it never happened.

Yadda Yadda Yadda. Nothing to do with what I wrote. You can refuse to accept/acknowledge Transpeople as natural, without being anti-Trans, and comparing Trans issues with the problems with homosexuality in society, is a false equivalence. You're simply spouting the opposite side of the propaganda you claim to dislike.

Deleted User wrote: »

It takes no effort to refer to someone by the pronouns they wish to be referred to. Like it takes far more effort to be a knob about it.

Doing so infers acceptance. If someone doesn't accept these Trans issues, then, they probably don't want to proclaim that acceptance.

There’s a huge amount of complexity in this topic, but some poster going ‘he’s right!’ is just the sort of post you’d expect lots of likes from the usual suspects - the angry men who think everything is gone soft these days, this wouldn’t happen in Russia, and that their rights as an angry man who spends far too much time being angry on the internet is somehow being impinged upon by ‘liberals’, ‘cancel culture’, and ‘socialists’.

Ironically enough, well-rounded and masculine men don’t get angry about trans people having rights, or women speaking up etc. They also realise there’s human empathy and complexity involved. Not ‘world gone mad, so angry’. It’s the real dweebish online sorts who get really angry about this stuff.

And... more propaganda driven by the trans debate. Devalue and dismiss those who won't conform. That people are getting "angry" whenever they voice an opinion that counters that of Trans advocates. Make their responses into something emotional, and disregard the concerns people have.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Absolutely not. Gosh you are a spinner.
It is perfectly normal for some people to identify as the opposite sex. That is how they feel..
But - contrary to what TRAs claim -
Transgender people are not literally the opposite sex.
Self ID does not entitle anyone to enter opposite sex spaces such as sport, refuges, jail, intimate venues.
Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I don't know enough about it to decide I'm right and make a blanket statement on the issue. I'll leave that up to the people that do. I don't decide policy and I've never been inside a prison.

But you can have an opinion no? You can think about the pros and cons to come up with said opinion can you not? You can do a bit of research.

Off the top of your head, do you think having male criminals, people that have already shown no appreciation for laws and rules, mix freely with their female counterparts is a good idea?

km991148

dalyboy wrote: »

The the contest begin.

On the left corner ..... the deranged Twitter mob

On the right corner ..... the moderate conservative majority view

What about the deranged conservative Twitter mob? Or the conservative but trans accepting? Or the non Twitter deranged mob? Or the majority that is neither of the two things you mentioned? Or the conservative transperson speaking out on one issue?

Everyone must be pigeonholed.. it's nonesense in itself..

KaneToad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I was thinking though we might take a look at the special Olympics and see how they do things. You often get people who are VERY physically different competing against each other. It would be interesting to see how they manage to arrange that safely.

What is divisioning?
In Special Olympics competitions, athletes of all ability levels are encouraged to participate, and every athlete is recognized for his or her performance. Through a process called divisioning, Special Olympics competitions are structured so that athletes compete with other athletes of similar gender, age and ability in equitable divisions. This makes for exciting competitions!

ILoveYourVibes

isha wrote: »

Children should not be "affirmed" with drugs that render them infertile, impotent and irreversibly damaged.

No one WANTS this to happen.

Exploiting tragedies or teens who made confused wrong choices at a vulnerable seems unsavory.


If there are people doctors or parents who are that flippant with this kind of choice they are rare. And more to the point they are probably so emotionally unbalanced as not really to be a good measure of the trans community. And you are probably not going to stop them messing up their lives anyway if they are so determined.

The idea that anyone wants children to be deliberately damaged is ludicrous.

Moghead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Likewise it is hugely dangerous to transfer males to the female estate. California recently moved 261 self ID trans prisoners to the women's prisons. It is also not inreasonable or hateful to call this out as wrong.

What would you do with them though, would they be safe in a mens prison in the USA?

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Using extreme situations in life and applying it as having to do with the average trans person is very much the 80s.

But transwoman are already competing in women's sports to the detriment of natal women, so the situations aren't extreme.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yadda Yadda Yadda. Nothing to do with what I wrote. You can refuse to accept/acknowledge Transpeople as natural, without being anti-Trans, and comparing Trans issues with the problems with homosexuality in society, is a false equivalence. You're simply spouting the opposite side of the propaganda you claim to dislike.



Doing so infers acceptance. If someone doesn't accept these Trans issues, then, they probably don't want to proclaim that acceptance.



And... more propaganda driven by the trans debate. Devalue and dismiss those who won't conform. That people are getting "angry" whenever they voice an opinion that counters that of Trans advocates. Make their responses into something emotional, and disregard the concerns people have.

The emotion, I'm afraid, comes from both sides. It is a very complex issue, one that goes to the very heart of what we understand a man or woman to be and whether than is based on reality or just our perceptions.

ILoveYourVibes

KaneToad wrote: »

What is divisioning?
In Special Olympics competitions, athletes of all ability levels are encouraged to participate, and every athlete is recognized for his or her performance. Through a process called divisioning, Special Olympics competitions are structured so that athletes compete with other athletes of similar gender, age and ability in equitable divisions. This makes for exciting competitions!

AH HA ! Thank you for being smarter than i !

https://www.abudhabi2019.org/recent-news/special-olympics-divisioning-explained

KaneToad

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No one WANTS this to happen.

Exploiting tragedies or teens who made confused wrong choices at a vulnerable seems unsavory.


If there are people doctors or parents who are that flippant with this kind of choice they are rare. And more to the point they are probably so emotionally unbalanced as not really to be a good measure of the trans community. And you are probably not going to stop them messing up their lives anyway if they are so determined.

The idea that anyone wants children to be deliberately damaged is ludicrous.

Apologies, very off topic, but male circumcision is an example of this that is readily accepted...

Leroy42

Hhhhh wrote: »

Ye because they are male, and have on average inherent biological advantages over females. Sport is going down the road of attempting to make things as safe as possible, rugby recently having a spate of rule changes as an example
Allowing men to compete with women takes us drastically back in the other direction.

You'd have to wonder if someone who things men competing with women, particularly at competitive levels, has any interest in sport at all, or ever played one at any reasonable level!

My post was wrong, now corrected. It was not transgender male, just Male

My point is that men can kill each other, it is not solely a transgender issue

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

What constitutes being male or female though? Bone density, height, weight, strength? Genitals? Ability to reproduce?

Within the traditional male, ie those born as a boy, there are massive variations. And even within groups training makes a significant difference.

Just saying transgender is unfair is simplistic and open to a debate on what is actually right.

If we are arrived at the postmodern post - truth wonderment about what constitutes a male and a female, I regret to tell you I will not send my brain into that kind of blunt trauma battle with you. On you go.

Buddy Bubs

Buddy Bubs wrote: »

That's a very sexist post about men there. Not that I care, just calling out the inconsistencies of it all.
Calling masculinity into question to belittle them to try win an argument is weak.
To be honest it's the exact same as calling all women who agree with it big butch lesbians to counter their argument.

I’m a man. My friends are nearly all men; my Dad is a man; my brother is a man.

I’ve never once heard this topic come up in conversation. I’d presume there would be some nuanced views on it, which is why Jenner speaking up is interesting considering her profile and her past.

It’s the real ‘non playable characters’ who spend their lives being angry on the internet who seem to be whipped into hysteria about this. My own theory is they have such dull and unremarkable lives of their own that they just take their anger and frustration out on people who are different than them.

‘It’s political correctness gone mad, Jeremy!’

Moghead

Moghead wrote: »

What would you do with them though, would they be safe in a mens prison in the USA?

A separate facility is the logical and compassionate solution. I would think that is obvious.

ILoveYourVibes

Hhhhh wrote: »

But transwoman are already competing in women's sports to the detriment of natal women, so the situations aren't extreme.

Its not common ...therefore its rare ...

sydthebeat

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wasn't there a male mma fighter than killed another male? And boxing?

Should sports only be played between perfectly matched individuals?

Seems unfair that other sprinters had to race against Bolt when clearly he was faster than them.

Is it fair that taller basketball players are clearly at an advantage? Should we do something about that?

Its perfectly reasonable to have safety concerns, but there are weight classes and levels to deal with that already.

The reality is none of the above are issues, until transgender is involved and then suddenly people are close concerned about fairness.

What an incredibly weird post!!!

Are you ok with men fighting women in combat sports???

Guy:Incognito

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yadda Yadda Yadda. Nothing to do with what I wrote. You can refuse to accept/acknowledge Transpeople as natural, without being anti-Trans, and comparing Trans issues with the problems with homosexuality in society, is a false equivalence. You're simply spouting the opposite side of the propaganda you claim to dislike.



.

Its not a false equivalence , its literally the same nonsense being dragged up by the same groups just transferred to a different minority. Its what they do. Always keeping a new bogeyman thats coming to attack your way of life.

A tiny minority of people whos lives will never impact most peoples yet some many get riled up at the though that these people get full rights or are looked on as "normal" section of society.

Its good that people have so few issues in their lives that they need to get so annoyed about trans people.......

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If we are arrived at the postmodern post - truth wonderment about what constitutes a male and a female, I regret to tell you I will not send my brain into that kind of blunt trauma battle with you. On you go.

Thats fine, but then don't pretend you have any notion on this topic as you clearly can't face dealing with the complexity.

Far easier to simply say you think something is right or wrong than actually think about it I suppose

ILoveYourVibes

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Pointing out extreme cases or issues in life where trans people present us with a challenge and questions is being used as an excuse to dismiss and abuse or exclude them entirely ..and its certainly being used to talk about them in a childish and less than nuance way.

I don't hear lets find a solution to this challenge. I hear ...look lets laugh at trans people

Having said that there are many physiological differences between bio women and trans women that a lot of people ..the heart structure and the way it behaves ...bones ..bone density ...

I was thinking though we might take a look at the special Olympics and see how they do things. You often get people who are VERY physically different competing against each other. It would be interesting to see how they manage to arrange that safely.

Ok so there is a problem ...its unfair ....so how do we fix it? While keeping it fair for bio women too?

Who said anything about laughing at Trans people? As for finding a solution, we've gone down this road before, and advocates of trans issues found the proposed solutions to be unacceptable.

Once more, you are trying to suggest that those who don't conform and agree with the trans advocates are being unreasonable. People who become Trans should have every right and benefit that they want, and anything less than that, is unreasonable.

We fix it by recognising that Trans people fit within a category all of their own, separate to either biological males or biological females. They've chosen to be different.

Leroy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A separate facility is the logical and compassionate solution. I would think that is obvious.

But more violent inmates are separated from other inmates even though they are the same gender!

Hmm, its almost if a simple divide doesn't solve all the problems