Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XI *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

FlubberJones

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Are the government actually going for covid elimination at this stage ?

I wish they'd tell us if they are

Seems like the only explanation now

Surely they can't, it would impossible.... we need to learn that we have to live with it

charlie14

Bit cynical wrote: »

On the other hand, we've also had people claim that we were not in a lockdown even in the depths of level 5.

We have had people claiming other countries had no lockdown what-so-ever based on their restrictions compared to ours.

The simple truth is there has been no universally recognised definition of lockdown as regards Covid-19.


Different countries have had different restrictions under their different levels.
For example, Ireland`s according to some at level 5 was supposedly the most restrictive in Europe, yet unlike France we never had curfews, so does that not mean France at one point had a level of lockdown higher than Ireland`s level 5.

growleaves

gozunda wrote: »

As pointed out we're going nowhere whilst countries such as the US have us effective blacklisted as having "a high level of COVID-19 in the country"

But sure who cares ...

Along with China, European Schengen area, United Kingdom, Brazil, South Africa, India.

We've been one of the most locked down countries in the world so what does it say about the effectiveness of lockdown if we have "a high level of C19" circulating after three hard slog lockdowns and two stalled non-reopenings?

Or is it literally the case that "the idiots *^&(! ruining it for everyone" have actually nullified the effect of three lockdowns by hanging out with each other at the Grand Canal or wherever drinking cans?

In that case maybe we need a new strategy?

Foxtrol

Red Silurian wrote: »

Don't forget the relatives of the nearly 5,000 people who have lost loved ones to this virus, I'd say they agree with measures regardless of whether it affects them or not

Leveraging the opinions of people who have gone through trauma is pretty low on boards and absolutely idiotic if you are running a country.

What should be driving decisions is science not politics, but for a large part that boat sailed a long time ago.

MrMiyagi12345

Red Silurian wrote: »

Don't forget the relatives of the nearly 5,000 people who have lost loved ones to this virus, I'd say they agree with measures regardless of whether it affects them or not

Mostly elderly with pre-existing conditions, a huge proportion who would died regardless.

Not worth the past 15 months.

growleaves

charlie14 wrote: »

We have had people claiming other countries had no lockdown what-so-ever based on their restrictions compared to ours.

The simple truth is there has been no universally recognised definition of lockdown as regards Covid-19.


Different countries have had different restrictions under their different levels.
For example, Ireland`s according to some at level 5 was supposedly the most restrictive in Europe, yet unlike France we never had curfews, so does that not mean France at one point had a level of lockdown higher than Ireland`s level 5.

I do think a curfew is a very strict measure but in the midst of Irish winter with everything closed, household mixing barred and movement limited to 5km where exactly are Irish people going to go at night that an equivalent French person could not?

French people had more options to do things during the day IIRC.

charlie14

growleaves wrote: »

I do think a curfew is a very strict measure but in the midst of Irish winter with everything closed, household mixing barred and movement limited to 5km where exactly are Irish people going to go at night that an equivalent French person could not?

French people had more options to do things during the day IIRC.

The French curfews were not in the midst of winter, they were in April, and I have a very strong suspicion if they had been introduced here at any point they would have been portrayed, in a different light as to your downplaying of them in France, as just more evidence that we were the worsest lockdown country in the whole widest world.


The simple truth is that there has been no one fits all worlwide lockdowns. Each country has applied different levels of restrictions which they believed best siuted their needs.

charlie14

MrMiyagi12345 wrote: »

Mostly elderly with pre-existing conditions, a huge proportion who would died regardless.

Not worth the past 15 months.

Highly debatable when you look at annual excess deaths for countries that applied light restrictions.

growleaves

charlie14 wrote: »

The French curfews were not in the midst of winter, they were in April, and I have a very strong suspicion if they had been introduced here at any point they would have been portrayed, in a different light as to your downplaying of them in France, as just more evidence that we were the worsest lockdown country in the whole widest world.


The simple truth is that there has been no one fits all worlwide lockdowns. Each country has applied different levels of restrictions which they believed best siuted their needs.

I'm not downplaying it because curfew is very serious. However I still think its justifiable to say that the Irish one was a particularly hard slog and lots of evidence has been posted on this thread. Its all subjective I suppose.

I do agree though that the Ireland vs. everyone else debate is in some ways just a detail and a side track from the main issue. We are broadly in line with other countries and that is bad on all of us.

Canada and Australia are in some ways the "worst" in terms of the things they have done or allowed to happen: detainees raped in quarantine facilities in Alberta, young children locked in rooms on municipal advice near Toronto, pregnant woman tackled to the ground by police in Melbourne for not wearing a mask, family members of dying man separated from him in Queensland.

niallo27

charlie14 wrote: »

We have had people claiming other countries had no lockdown what-so-ever based on their restrictions compared to ours.

The simple truth is there has been no universally recognised definition of lockdown as regards Covid-19.


Different countries have had different restrictions under their different levels.
For example, Ireland`s according to some at level 5 was supposedly the most restrictive in Europe, yet unlike France we never had curfews, so does that not mean France at one point had a level of lockdown higher than Ireland`s level 5.

No it doesn't, not to any reasonable thinking person anyway.

Penfailed

MOR316 wrote: »

It's a common theme here...

Those currently unaffected by the restrictions are in full agreement with them and praise Tony's handling of it and agree with everything he and the Government say and do.

Meanwhile, those who are affected by the restrictions, be it mentally, financially or occupational wise, don't agree with them and are being dismissed by those who do agree with NPHET and The Government with satirical, belittling, patronising posts, stating that it's not the media or Tony or Government but, those in question themselves creating hysteria in their minds...

It's certainly a case of, "well I'm alright Jack, so tough **** if you're not haha" which certainly flies in the face of a lot of the faux "all in this together" and "you're so selfish stay at home and safe lives" one liners that have been spewed through out these threads since the beginning.

But, hey...I look forward to seeing you all in the aftermath thread of this when your wages are slashed and you have to pay for all of this

The only people I've read the emboldened text ^^^ in this thread are those like yourself saying it in a sarcastic manner.

facehugger99

Penfailed wrote: »

The only people I've read the emboldened text ^^^ in this thread are those like yourself saying it in a sarcastic manner.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/433d0f-an-taoiseach-launches-inthistogether-campaign-for-people-to-stay-con/

SAMTALK

MrMiyagi12345 wrote: »

Mostly elderly with pre-existing conditions, a huge proportion who would died regardless.

Not worth the past 15 months.

So you think no need for any restrictions ?

How do you think that would have worked out ?

You do get that restrictions helped to stop the spread / deaths ?

_Kaiser_

seamus wrote: »

It's fun that "Lockdown" can be whatever you want it to be depending on whatever doomongering you're trying to do.

"a lockdown isn't off the cards after all" - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114847084

"slide us back into lockdowns and level 5s in the coming months." - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=117223169&postcount=2469

Somehow in your above posts you talk about going "back into lockdown", despite the fact that at both times restrictions were much more severe than they are now.

But now, because it suits your agenda, lockdown is apparently a state of mind more than an actual, definable thing. Handy that.

I'm so flattered that you went back through my posting history like that. Want to go to the dance tomorrow?

gozunda

growleaves wrote: »

Along with China, European Schengen area, United Kingdom, Brazil, South Africa, India.

We've been one of the most locked down countries in the world so what does it say about the effectiveness of lockdown if we have "a high level of C19" circulating after three hard slog lockdowns and two stalled non-reopenings?

Or is it literally the case that "the idiots *^&(! ruining it for everyone" have actually nullified the effect of three lockdowns by hanging out with each other at the Grand Canal or wherever drinking cans?

In that case maybe we need a new strategy?

I think that just be whataboutery? No mention made of "China, European Schengen area, United Kingdom, Brazil, South Africa, India". But no we don't need to be lemmings.

First things first - you ask about

"the effectiveness of lockdown if we have "a high level of C19" circulating after three hard slog lockdowns and two stalled non-reopenings?"

The restrictions etc are there to keep the level of infection low and initially they were working very well in getting numbers down from the ****show which was January / February

But funnily enough the near constant "high level of C19" as was detailed - has been noted since restrictions were first started back to be rolled back several months and despite vaccinations remains a noted feature of the current situation.

"Most locked down" Yeah so some keep on claiming even now - despite restrictions here generally being lightly policed here compared to say Spain where mask wearing outdoors was strictly enforced. Or that we never had curfews like France enforced by police there etc etc.

Anyway not to get bogged down in that bugbear - I presume you've heard the good news - apparently we're not the "most locked down" at all.

A whole bunch of countries ahead of us including Germany https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/europe/stringency-index-how-does-each-country-s-covid-response-compare-1.1245835

I've no idea what the "idiots" have been up to - other than to acknowledge afaik they certainly seem to exist out there.

But I'm very interested in this theory of yours that "the idiots ruining it for everyone" have actually nullified the effect of three lockdowns by hanging out with each other at the Grand Canal or wherever drinking cans"

Do go on - I'm all ears ...

Penfailed

PTH2009 wrote: »

All in this together

Right on cue.

Penfailed

facehugger99 wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/433d0f-an-taoiseach-launches-inthistogether-campaign-for-people-to-stay-con/

Did you miss the bit where I said, "in this thread"?

charlie14

growleaves wrote: »

I'm not downplaying it because curfew is very serious. However I still think its justifiable to say that the Irish one was a particularly hard slog and lots of evidence has been posted on this thread. Its all subjective I suppose.

I do agree though that the Ireland vs. everyone else debate is in some ways just a detail and a side track from the main issue. We are broadly in line with other countries and that is bad on all of us.

Canada and Australia are in some ways the "worst" in terms of the things they have done or allowed to happen: detainees raped in quarantine facilities in Alberta, young children locked in rooms on municipal advice near Toronto, pregnant woman tackled to the ground by police in Melbourne for not wearing a mask, family members of dying man separated from him in Queensland.

I agree, this pandemic has been bad for everyone regardless of where you live, but for me at least there is no way the situation is going to improve other than through science via vaccination.

There is a lot of calling here for politicians to stand up and be counted by going full steam ahead on reopening regardless of the scientific advice. By the nature of politics not something I am overly comfortable with.

Politics is a popularity game whereas science is not. We have only too look at our close neighbours in the U.K. in the earlier and mid stages of this pandemic to see where that led.
I`m not saying governments should blindly follow the scientific advise as scientists can be overly cautious, but it should be listened too and evaluated rather than this gung-ho approach favoured by some here.

KrustyUCC

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1408083334488641540

Yet the media and certain sections of NPHET are pushing for us not to ease restrictions on time

growleaves

gozunda,

My point was that half the world is barred from the US, so our being barred from the US isn't some uniquely bad thing.

But I'm very interested in this theory of yours that "the idiots ruining it for everyone" have actually nullified the effect of three lockdowns by hanging out with each other at the Grand Canal or wherever drinking cans?"

I wouldn't call it a theory but lockdowns seem create their own antithesis - the isolation gets to people and then you get explosions of socialising after or even during lockdown. That is used to justify the next lockdown but it ought to make people realise the whole exercise is self-negating.

Settled married couples or people who prefer to be alone anyway (and anyone not inconvenienced by atomisation) should not huff and puff about "why can't people just stay in?"

They should make some kind of reconciliation with human nature. Stop pushing a rock up a hill only for it fall back down on you time after time.

Klonker

KrustyUCC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1408083334488641540

Yet the media and certain sections of NPHET are pushing for us not to ease restrictions on time

RTE won't be happy with Fergal for that tweet, not towing the company line.

Penfailed

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Yet the media and certain sections of NPHET are pushing for us not to ease restrictions on time

Pushing for it, or discussing the possibility that it might happen?

charlie14

niallo27 wrote: »

No it doesn't, not to any reasonable thinking person anyway.

That would greatly depend on your view as to who a reasonable thinking person is.
Personally from your posts I believe it is reasonable to think had we, like France, introduced curfew in April then you would have been on here screaming blue murder about us going beyond level 5.

Penfailed

Klonker wrote: »

RTE won't be happy with Fergal for that tweet, not towing the company line.

Reporting facts = not towing the company line...eh?

namloc1980

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/taoiseach-says-sense-of-inevitability-about-progress-of-delta-variant-will-have-implications-for-restrictions-1.4602293

"Taoiseach Micheál Martin has spoken of a ‘sense of inevitability about the progress of the Delta variant’ that will have ‘implications for the type of restrictions that one would impose’."

What a leader. We're being repositioned now to imposition of restrictions rather than further relaxation.

TheDoctor

namloc1980 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/taoiseach-says-sense-of-inevitability-about-progress-of-delta-variant-will-have-implications-for-restrictions-1.4602293

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has spoken of a ‘sense of inevitability about the progress of the Delta variant’ that will have ‘implications for the type of restrictions that one would impose’.

What a leader.

Inspiring words

mightyreds

Penfailed wrote: »

Reporting facts = not towing the company line...eh?

pretty accurate

charlie14

Klonker wrote: »

RTE won't be happy with Fergal for that tweet, not towing the company line.

I found it a little strange that he didn`t mention the U.K. which would be our main area of concern rather than Europe.

Sweet.Science

KrustyUCC wrote: »

https://twitter.com/FergalBowers/status/1408083334488641540

Yet the media and certain sections of NPHET are pushing for us not to ease restrictions on time

Yeah there's no way restrictions are not going as planned July 5th

Way ahead of the most optimistic predictions

zackory

Penfailed wrote: »

Pushing for it, or discussing the possibility that it might happen?

Many GPs would like a two- or three-week delay to reopening indoor dining so more people can be vaccinated, Nphet member Dr Mary Favier has said.

The former president of the Irish College of General Practitioners said it was now a race against the clock to vaccinate as many people as possible to protect them from the Delta variant and said, “an additional two or three weeks would make a substantial difference”.