Newbie - apologies in advance - where best sell watches

MarcusP12

Hopefully Fitz will expand a bit on how he fell out of love with his tag but i've thought a little about this based on the thread and i liken them to the Opel's of the car world....maybe I'm wrong on this but there was definitely a time when Opels had a certain cool factor for the everyday man car....back in the 80/90s they sponsored the Irish football team, they produced cars that were less $hit than others in their price range.....had a sporty element with really nice cars like the opel calibre if i recall but I'd say in the last 10/15 years they've really fallen off a cliff in terms of attractiveness to the regular buyer....people have gravitated more towards SUVs and korean alternatives that just weren't there when Opel were in their pomp......I know quality is a bit of an issue too.....so yeah, tag are the Opel of the car work in some ways....

unkel

You ask the question to Fitz, so he can answer it. My own experience is very similar though. I bought my first decent watch in the early 90s, a quartz Tissot. Beautiful watch, serious dough but not quite Omega money - I guess similar enough to a mid range Tag. I thought it was the bees bollix at the time, had it for many years and enjoyed it....until eventually I started looking at higher quality Swiss watches, but couldn't afford them.

It's mostly something that many, but not all, watch enthusiasts go through. Some stick forever with their cheap as chips Casios, some make the step up from there to a Seiko, then to an entry level Swiss watch, etc. It is totally unimportant what phase someone is in, it gives you no bragging rights and doesn't make you a better person or "better" watch enthusiast. It's a highly personal thing. Funny thing is that most people don't realise that they might ever be going up to the next level, but a lot of them will.

Wibbs

Plus men's wristwatches are primarily jewellery and jewellery goes through fashion trends. TAG were very fashionable in the 90's well into the 00's as a "good watch" for men, but fashion changed. I reckon the second reason is the massive rise in the last 10 years of the popularity of watches that went from a hobby of a relatively small bunch of watch nerds to the mainstream. More guys were getting on board and more into the details of watches whereas before outside of the nerds the two known brands were Rolex(which had the middle aged man/car salesman vibe) and TAG(which had the much younger, in fashion and cooler vibe). Budgets getting larger was another factor, expectations changed, as did the new notion of buying a new watch as an "investment" and the market decided Rolex were the de facto currency, like air cooled Porsches in the classic car market are. Porsche and Rolex have huge overlap in this kinda thing. Plus the original watch nerds never rated TAG as a brand and always looked at them sniffly* and that was absorbed by the newbies.





*maybe because they were fashionable in the 90's when much of the hobby started and they had the audacity to take over the much loved Heuer

Wibbs

unkel wrote: »

until eventually I started looking at higher quality Swiss watches, but couldn't afford them.

Quality is another area where expectations changed too U. If you look at a 90's mechanical TAG Heuer and a 90's Rolex, there was very little actually in it. If anything the TAG would arguably have the better movement as Rolex movements were solid but basic and often sloppily assembled and their bracelets were famously crap for the price. A 90's IWC would blow the doors off both. Since then Rolex really upped their quality game, much of it to look for more "luxury" prices, but a lot of it was also to head off the fakes, because they had been much easier to copy. A mid range fake of today would be ahead of a genuine 90's Rolex.

oxocube

Proud owner of a Tag Heuer Link CJF2112 and CJF2115. Always looking for a nice CJF2111 to complete the holy trinity. If you say tag is rag, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Differences of opinion are great and make sure this forum is not an echo chamber.

I don't care what you like, I buy what I like. And you're still entitled to your opinion.

Fitz II

I am going to reply later when I have time as I think you have to be very specific to qualify your response here, and not in a bad way, but its easy for the nuance to get misconstrued.

MarcusP12

Fitz II wrote: »

I am going to reply later when I have time as I think you have to be very specific to qualify your response here, and not in a bad way, but its easy for the nuance to get misconstrued.

Chill out dude, there'll be no kick back from me on what you come back with but i am genuinely curious on how things changed from you but come back to us in your own good time.....

say for example if ultimately it did come down to the industry perception of Tag sullying your view on something you once thought was the bees knees, i do get that....in a similar kind of way, i'm very much brand conscious in my watch choices. I often look for advice for a watch for certain budget and often times people come back with really nice suggestions but from niche makes which are well regarded amongst watch circles but they don't really interest me because i've only heard of them through boards which means most people i know will have never heard of them either so in a very shallow kind of way, that affects how special it feels to me.....that's probably a frowned upon outlook but as others have implied, people buy for their own reasons, all of which are valid.....

Its one of reasons why i gravitate towards the likes of Hamilton and Tag because they are recognisably good watches to the less informed.....

MarcusP12

unkel wrote: »

You ask the question to Fitz, so he can answer it. My own experience is very similar though. I bought my first decent watch in the early 90s, a quartz Tissot. Beautiful watch, serious dough but not quite Omega money - I guess similar enough to a mid range Tag. I thought it was the bees bollix at the time, had it for many years and enjoyed it....until eventually I started looking at higher quality Swiss watches, but couldn't afford them.

It's mostly something that many, but not all, watch enthusiasts go through. Some stick forever with their cheap as chips Casios, some make the step up from there to a Seiko, then to an entry level Swiss watch, etc. It is totally unimportant what phase someone is in, it gives you no bragging rights and doesn't make you a better person or "better" watch enthusiast. It's a highly personal thing. Funny thing is that most people don't realise that they might ever be going up to the next level, but a lot of them will.

Wow, a quartz tissot for not quite Omega money??? I didn't realise Tissot went that high up the price scales. My first decent watch was an auto Tissot chrono but that wouldn't have even quite been entry level Tag territory....

100% agree with what you say above for what its worth though....i did something similar but i'm not sure how much appetite i have to break through from mid range into the next bracket, e.g. omega, tudor, breitling....maybe for the next milestone birthday in a few years time....you're right about the bragging rights though....if someone feels good wearing whatever watch for whatever reason, good for them....

Wibbs

MarcusP12 wrote: »

say for example if ultimately it did come down to the industry perception of Tag sullying your view on something you once thought was the bees knees, i do get that....

Well the fashions moved on, the industry, especially TAG would have loved if it didn't.

This is very time dependent. If this forum were around in the 90's into the early 00's TAG would figure way higher in the mix and be rated more highly too.

in a similar kind of way, i'm very much brand conscious in my watch choices. I often look for advice for a watch for certain budget and often times people come back with really nice suggestions but from niche makes which are well regarded amongst watch circles but they don't really interest me because i've only heard of them through boards which means most people i know will have never heard of them either so in a very shallow kind of way, that affects how special it feels to me.....that's probably a frowned upon outlook but as others have implied, people buy for their own reasons, all of which are valid.....

Nothing particularly shallow about it M. They're items of jewellery and as such also telegraph status so branding becomes important.

scwazrh

Trying to pinpoint why WIS like to put Tag down is very difficult because for every point that can be made against Tag , the same point can be made against another brand

Say Tag are too fashionable— There’s no watch more fashionable than a sub .

Tag Heuer make sunglasses and other tat— Omega make jewellery, glasses , key rings etc for sale and not just as promotional items

Tag have no innovation- Doesn’t stop Hublot

Tag are too new a company , Have Richard Mille even hit their 21st year yet ?

Some Tag watches are just overpriced generic movements- Hard to argue that one except the Monaco

As was said many posts ago , buy what you like ,wear what you enjoy and don’t put down other peoples watch choices

Fitz II

On reflection I think I will stay out of it. Watch collecting is a journey and we each walk our own roads, where you choose to stop and if and when you choose to move on is your choice. The relative merits of the destinations will be very much determined by how well travelled you are.

Wibbs

scwazrh wrote: »

Trying to pinpoint why WIS like to put Tag down is very difficult because for every point that can be made against Tag , the same point can be made against another brand

Like I reckoned S, they're not fashionable any more is 90% of it, mixed with a general sniffiness that was present among the WIS when they were fashionable, which incoming WIS picked up on. Similar can be seen currently with Hublot, albeit at much higher pricepoints.

Speaking of fashion, not so long ago Franck Muller watches were hot as feck. Regularly featured in blogs and forums and a new watch collector would have one in their sights as a major step up. The FP Journe of the time in many ways, though more popular. These days they are pretty much nowhere to be seen, rarely mentioned if ever.

IWC are another brand that were significantly more on the radar than they are today. Pretty much their last outing was the Big Pilot. Again they were another one of the "must haves" for new watch buyers. Today those looking to move up through the ranks to PP, AP, Lange or even Rolex wouldn't have one, or IWC in general on their radar as an interim watch, never mind a "keeper".

As was said many posts ago , buy what you like ,wear what you enjoy and don’t put down other peoples watch choices

+1, though I would be among the first to caution people on buying pricey enough watches that will bite them come sale time instead of the watch they actually want to buy.

Fitz II wrote: »

On reflection I think I will stay out of it. Watch collecting is a journey and we each walk our own roads, where you choose to stop and if and when you choose to move on is your choice. The relative merits of the destinations will be very much determined by how well travelled you are.

Pretty much and what you want to get out of it in the first place too. Plus there are different types of collectors going in, it just happens to be watches. That's why the meme of the watch collector trajectory while a bit of fun doesn't reflect things too accurately.

This is very much in play in some sections of the vintage world where it's the collecting itself that's much of it. Whether that be Swatches, Accutrons or Pateks. There's a chap on another forum I'm on that has it's either 8 or 12 Rolex Milsubs. Yeah. And I can think of a fair few with the full Dirty Dozen of WW2 WWW(that's a lot of w's ), or the full set of original B-Uhrs. The vintage set are also a lot more anal about nerdy details. You've more oddballs in the mix. Oh hang on...

That collecting for its own sake thing is generally much less in play with new buyers, though there are different collector types there too. You get far more flippers in that section of the market for example, the vintage crowd hoard. There's also much more of the going up the ranks as they progress and as funds allow, usually by the aforementioned flipping. Starting out more scattergun, then gaining knowledge, flipping, adding some funds to get to the tier they want to be at. If they're sensible.

There's generally more flexing and brand status stuff in the new market too, or rather it's of a far more mainstream kind. Vintage types can flex too of course, especially over the last few years, but civilians would be in the dark about what they were flexing, it's all in house, secret handshake stuff. EG instagram a Tornek Rayville say and your normal human being and most current model watch collectors for that matter would return a singular meh, it would have pretty much zero golf club/dinner party/boardroom impact. A current AP or Lange or Rolex would garner far more attention and oohs and ahhs.

MarcusP12

Wibbs wrote: »

Like I reckoned S, they're not fashionable any more is 90% of it, mixed with a general sniffiness that was present among the WIS when they were fashionable, which incoming WIS picked up on. Similar can be seen currently with Hublot, albeit at much higher pricepoints.

When you say Tag are not fashionable anymore, what do you mean by that out of curiosity? Do you mean aesthetically or is more that they're not really attractive to watch people anymore because of X, Y or Z reason, e.g. too common and accessible relative to the darlings of the watch world? I only ask that because i find them quite nice generally for the price point and not sure how they might have gone out of fashion aesthetically. I can see how say Seven Friday for example might be a bit of a fad but tag designs seem pretty inoffensive.....just my subjective take from a position of no knowledge of the industry.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit really if the popularity and accessibility of Tags has a big bearing on how they are viewed in the watch world in certain quarters.....I know i said earlier that Tag remind me a bit of Opel as a car maker in terms of their standing but another way of looking at it is that maybe they're like Lexus. Some people probably don't consider Lexus but instead default to beemers, audi and mercs because why would you pay 100k for a glorified toyota when i can get an audi for the same money.....

Cyclingtourist

I'd compare Tag to Raleigh, Rolex to Trek and Omega to Specialized.;)

unkel

Grand Seiko is the Lexus of the watch world

Omega is Audi and Rolex is BMW

Cyclingtourist

Time this thread was moved to hobbies & other interests?

MarcusP12

unkel wrote: »

Grand Seiko is the Lexus of the watch world

Omega is Audi and Rolex is BMW

No way man, Rolex defo not BMW IMO...maybe Merc....how about BMW= Omega and Audi - Breitling i.e. comes with the smugness (or satisfaction depending on the side of the fence you're on) of not being an Omega!

redlead

unkel wrote: »

Grand Seiko is the Lexus of the watch world

Omega is Audi and Rolex is BMW

Lexus is definitely Grand Seiko haha

I would say Merc a better fit for Rolex and omega Audi/BMW. Tudor as Skoda

MarcusP12

All joking aside though, am i completely off the mark? Surely it's a factor in where it stands in the luxury watch market that you can pick one of for high end Tissot money and yet with the same badge expect to command mid range Omega money for your high end stuff? If i was Mr. Omega or Mr. Tudor or Mr. Breitling i'm be thinking "How dare you think you are on the same level when you produce products for the common folk!"

But then (and i know i'm contradicting myself here), has that not always been the case even when they were higher regarded?

redlead

MarcusP12 wrote: »

All joking aside though, am i completely off the mark? Surely it's a factor in where it stands in the luxury watch market that you can pick one of for high end Tissot money and yet with the same badge expect to command mid range Omega money for your high end stuff? If i was Mr. Omega or Mr. Tudor or Mr. Breitling i'm be thinking "How dare you think you are on the same level when you produce products for the common folk!"

But then (and i know i'm contradicting myself here), has that not always been the case even when they were higher regarded?

Brands just go in and out of fashion and people have different tastes. What dictates fashion is many different factors such as design but also social media influence and brand positioning. Tag flogged too many cheap quartz which weakened the prestige of the brand because you can buy a Tag for a relative cheap price. They were everywhere back in the day and I think that this is the primary reason for their fall.

What can't be ignored either is that they just aren't built or finished as well as Omega, Breitling, Rolex etc . I tried on an aquaracer a few weeks ago when I was in town and I really wasn't impressed to be honest, the finishing on it just seemed very crude around the bezel and case in general. Where it was being sold is another issue. One of those cheap sort of jewlers where the watches are Daniel Wellingtons, Casio, Tissot and Tag being the fancy watch at ludicrous prices. Thats where they have been positioned. When you buy a Tag at a reasonable price then they are pretty good value, similar to Oris etc although Oris have just developed a really impressive on house movement.

It's all just personal opinions though. People love Tags and that's great but there is a quality difference between those and some other brands that some may compare them against imo, it's not just all unfair criticism.

Wibbs

Mostly the brand isn't as fashionable as it was. Neither are IWC and nobody could accuse them of making tat. TAG's peak in the 90's early 00's was mostly based around very of the time designs and lots of good advertising and tie ins with motorsport so they were a very well known brand beyond the at the time very small watch hobbyist sector. So they were very much a brand that was seen as a good/luxury watch at their pricepoint to the general public. Since then the market has increased the share of watch hobbyists and their opinions are more mainstream and it's also gone much more for conservative heritage designs. Now TAG has a lot of heritage bound up in the Heuer history, but they came to that a little late. EG Longines also had very modish 90's designs but also had their heritage line they pushed equally back then, plus having Swatch position them as the ye olde heritage brand in their stable helped.

Now TAG's current lineup has gone back to more conservative and has the Monaco and the Carrera, both "icons" and very nice watches(far better than the originals), but they just don't seem to be as desirable at the moment. The Monaco is very distinctive looking so can be a bit marmite, the Carrera should sell better and I dunno why it doesn't other than it's just not in fashion at the moment. And yes buying new you will take a hit when you sell it and that's a biggie these days with more flippers in the market, but you could say that about every other brand but Rolex(who are a law unto themselves and a currently agreed shadow currency in the hobby, and beyond). Dive watches are a big deal too and TAG's Aquaracer is very generic looking and doesn't really stand out. Longines' Hydroconquest is similar, but they also have their heritage diver which sells like hotcakes and they have a history in divewatches Heuer don't.

scwazrh

redlead wrote: »

When you buy a Tag at a reasonable price then they are pretty good value, similar to Oris etc although Oris have just developed a really impressive on house movement.

Tag are definitely over priced if you pay full retail. I’ve an AquaRacer gmt which is retail of €3k .It’s not worth that but to me it is worth the €1600 I paid for it .
Tag are not a watch to buy new in AD

redlead

scwazrh wrote: »

Tag are definitely over priced if you pay full retail. I’ve an AquaRacer gmt which is retail of €3k .It’s not worth that but to me it is worth the €1600 I paid for it .
Tag are not a watch to buy new in AD

Yeah agreed, that's what I meant by a reasonable price. Basically what you will get one on the grey market for. That aquaracer I tried on was something like 3.5k which is crazy. Youd get a seamaster grey for 3.9k

Lorddrakul

Purely for context, here's a quartz TAG Heuer.

I love F1. I grew up as a kid in the early 80s watching the racing and TAG was a huge brand and TAG Heuer was the name I associated with timing.

This was the first watch I spent more than 20 bucks on. It is a special edition with carbon dial from the last year as official timekeeper. It is a 1/10 of a second, 7-hand chrono.



I used it when I got my PADI Advanced Open Water licence.

The movement is the ETA 251.262 as used in the likes of Breitlings, etc.

I have owned it for 20 years. I also have an Omega, Breitling, Seiko, Poljot, and various other bits and bobs.
The TAG is as well put together as any of them.

Carry on.

MarcusP12

redlead wrote: »

Brands just go in and out of fashion and people have different tastes. What dictates fashion is many different factors such as design but also social media influence and brand positioning. Tag flogged too many cheap quartz which weakened the prestige of the brand because you can buy a Tag for a relative cheap price. They were everywhere back in the day and I think that this is the primary reason for their fall.

What can't be ignored either is that they just aren't built or finished as well as Omega, Breitling, Rolex etc . I tried on an aquaracer a few weeks ago when I was in town and I really wasn't impressed to be honest, the finishing on it just seemed very crude around the bezel and case in general. Where it was being sold is another issue. One of those cheap sort of jewlers where the watches are Daniel Wellingtons, Casio, Tissot and Tag being the fancy watch at ludicrous prices. Thats where they have been positioned. When you buy a Tag at a reasonable price then they are pretty good value, similar to Oris etc although Oris have just developed a really impressive on house movement.

It's all just personal opinions though. People love Tags and that's great but there is a quality difference between those and some other brands that some may compare them against imo, it's not just all unfair criticism.

Yeah but why would you expect an aquaracer to feel as good as a watch that costs twice the price, i.e. omegas and breitlings and a multiple again if we're talking about Rolex? I own a couple of aquaracers and they feel as good as i'd expect for a watch that costs that much.

Also, your comment re where it was sold makes me a bit "uneasy". Why does that matter? Weirs in Dundrum and city centre sell citizen, seiko, Tissot etc at modest prices along side the likes of rolex, panerai, breitling, omega etc....I'm pretty sure they also sell casio God forbid........whatever the point about their rep being damaged by selling high volume cheaper products, which i agree is an issue for them if they want to be a direct competitor to the omegas of the world but to think less of them because they are sold in retailers that cover all price points brings it back to an elitist attitude (i'm purposely avoiding the S word!). I'm not accusing you of being an elite, don't get me wrong but you can see the difficulty that might cause...

If i had 3k+ to spend on a watch and i wanted the experience of buying new, if i'm honest, would i buy tag? Probably not but i think Tag is a great choice for people to dip their toe in to expensive watches without it costing a bomb...

MarcusP12

Wibbs wrote: »

Mostly the brand isn't as fashionable as it was. Neither are IWC and nobody could accuse them of making tat. TAG's peak in the 90's early 00's was mostly based around very of the time designs and lots of good advertising and tie ins with motorsport so they were a very well known brand beyond the at the time very small watch hobbyist sector. So they were very much a brand that was seen as a good/luxury watch at their pricepoint to the general public. Since then the market has increased the share of watch hobbyists and their opinions are more mainstream and it's also gone much more for conservative heritage designs. Now TAG has a lot of heritage bound up in the Heuer history, but they came to that a little late. EG Longines also had very modish 90's designs but also had their heritage line they pushed equally back then, plus having Swatch position them as the ye olde heritage brand in their stable helped.

Now TAG's current lineup has gone back to more conservative and has the Monaco and the Carrera, both "icons" and very nice watches(far better than the originals), but they just don't seem to be as desirable at the moment. The Monaco is very distinctive looking so can be a bit marmite, the Carrera should sell better and I dunno why it doesn't other than it's just not in fashion at the moment. And yes buying new you will take a hit when you sell it and that's a biggie these days with more flippers in the market, but you could say that about every other brand but Rolex(who are a law unto themselves and a currently agreed shadow currency in the hobby, and beyond). Dive watches are a big deal too and TAG's Aquaracer is very generic looking and doesn't really stand out. Longines' Hydroconquest is similar, but they also have their heritage diver which sells like hotcakes and they have a history in divewatches Heuer don't.

That's really informative, thanks Wibbs.....makes a lot of sense too....Tag were the main aspirational watch when i was young due to their link with F1 which i was mad into at the time....i remember the strong advertising back in the 00's they had tiger, Sharapova, etc who were superstars at the time (and still are i guess)...there was a bit of coolness about them but they seem to have been overtaken by the likes of Rolex and Omega who have bond!, Rory, Tiger, Federer, etc on their books between them....even Breitling (who i would have thought were quite low key) have gone down an interesting route of getting movie stars in on the act like Brad i think rather than sports stars....but who would you associate Tag with these day?? Hamilton i think?

redlead

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Yeah but why would you expect an aquaracer to feel as good as a watch that costs twice the price, i.e.

Fair point but I think because of the heavy advertising they got as being a "good watch" leads to a lot of people thinking they are higher up the chain than they are. Heuer probably did have higher prestige back in the day too so the brand probably has been repositioned a bit lower. Longines are a bit like that too who are competing in the same bracket versus say Oris who were never out of that bracket but are now trying to push.

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Also, your comment re where it was sold makes me a bit "uneasy". Why does that matter?

It matters for brand perception. Brand cachet is hugely important in the luxury goods game. I'm not saying its fair or not fair but it is a reality. You are asking why the brand is out of fashion, I was just trying to give a few reasons. I don't personally look down on any brand apart from homage orientated and fashion watches; and at that I don't look down on the owner for wearing them, i just don't like the watch brands themselves. You noted this to be fair but just wanted to emphasis it.

Lorddrakul

MarcusP12 wrote: »

That's really informative, thanks Wibbs.....makes a lot of sense too....Tag were the main aspirational watch when i was young due to their link with F1 which i was mad into at the time....i remember the string advertising back in the 00's they had tiger, Sharapova, etc...there was a bit of coolness about them but they seem to have been overtaken by the likes of Rolex and Omega who have bond!, Rory, Tiger, Federer, etc on their books between them....even Breitling (who i would have thought were quite low key) have gone down an interesting route of getting movie stars in on the act like Brad i think rather than sports stars....but who would you associate Tag with these day??

That's a good point.

I would happily, if I had the cash, have a vintage Monaco or even a modern retro Autavia.

To me, TAG still has legitimate claim to the Heuer legacy, so that means Jocken Rindt, James Hunt, Steve McQueen, James Garner.

Works for me.

Fitz II

On this page you can get all the Tag partners and Brand Ambassadors. There are loads. But they are not pulling in the star power they used to.

https://www.tagheuer.com/hk/en/partnerships/our-universes.html

Wibbs

MarcusP12 wrote: »

Also, your comment re where it was sold makes me a bit "uneasy". Why does that matter?

It does, because the market and hobby has moved to more luxury new watch buyers coming into the scene and they are more into the whole "boutique experience" the valued customer on the List(tm) and in the know, all wood panel hushed tones, cloth gloves cradling their precious, wine and coffee by appointment only vibe. It's a personal and status thing and is found in all sorts of luxury goods. Brand model X bought walking in off the street from Joe O'Brien's family jewellers in the burbs is the same watch as bought from Exclusive Approved Dealer in Finery on the most expense street in the nation, but it's not the same experience and many people want that and want to pay for that. This is even in play online. Hodinkee can charge daft prices for often dubious vintage pieces minus movement shots(that alone is a hanging offence for the old guard) simply because they've become an aspirational lifestyle portal and that adds cache to the buying experience.